When is a Scientist taught to lie?

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When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« on: April 07, 2017, 04:59:46 PM »
So if we run with the all scientists are part of the conspiracy idea, then that means that at some point during their education they will have been told everything they are doing is fake.

If this is done on the first day of university then some people will drop the degree straight away as they see no point in spending 3 years studying a lie, and also any drop outs later on in the course will have no issue with spreading the word that they were being lied to. So how come it's never undergraduate physics students on this forum telling us the Earth is actually flat.

If the students are told the conspiracy on their graduation day or some time around then, which makes the most sense to keep the conspiracy from being known to unworthy people, then people who have dedicated 3+ years of their life and thousands and thousands of Pounds/Dollars on student fees will not be happy being told that they wasted their time, so they would be a large amount of pissed post grads preaching the 'truth', but their isn't.

Telling them halfway through the course will just bring the negatives of both sides together with an increased chance of people dropping out mid course and whistle blowing.

So given all of this, why is it that we don't see a large amount of disgruntled Undergraduate and postgraduate students angrily preaching about the conspiracy and demanding their student loan back from the government, and further than that, why do some people go even more and get a PhD is something they know is a lie?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 05:12:43 PM by JackSchitt »
"Religion is the opium of the people"
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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 02:31:08 AM »
So if we run with the all scientists are part of the conspiracy idea, then that means that at some point during their education they will have been told everything they are doing is fake.

If this is done on the first day of university then some people will drop the degree straight away as they see no point in spending 3 years studying a lie, and also any drop outs later on in the course will have no issue with spreading the word that they were being lied to. So how come it's never undergraduate physics students on this forum telling us the Earth is actually flat.

If the students are told the conspiracy on their graduation day or some time around then, which makes the most sense to keep the conspiracy from being known to unworthy people, then people who have dedicated 3+ years of their life and thousands and thousands of Pounds/Dollars on student fees will not be happy being told that they wasted their time, so they would be a large amount of pissed post grads preaching the 'truth', but their isn't.

Telling them halfway through the course will just bring the negatives of both sides together with an increased chance of people dropping out mid course and whistle blowing.

So given all of this, why is it that we don't see a large amount of disgruntled Undergraduate and postgraduate students angrily preaching about the conspiracy and demanding their student loan back from the government, and further than that, why do some people go even more and get a PhD is something they know is a lie?

"So if we run with the all scientists are part of the conspiracy idea,"

Scientists are puppets on strings, they are not the masters.

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 02:49:40 AM »


"So if we run with the all scientists are part of the conspiracy idea,"

Scientists are puppets on strings, they are not the masters.
[/quote]

Jack is not saying they are the masters in his query, far from it. The inference is that they ARE puppets in some way. Therefore his query remains the same, and your comment neither answers it or helps, it merely misdirects.
Try harder to understand the orginal post, and then try to come up with a response of some value or merit.

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RocksEverywhere

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2017, 04:48:40 AM »
Except scientists are the cutting edge of knowledge and science (duh), how do you expect anyone to be able to fool all of them continuously?
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onebigmonkey

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2017, 07:18:56 AM »
Never happens. At no point in either my undergraduate or post-graduate degrees was there a section on "If anyone asks..."
Facts won't do what I want them to.

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 08:29:35 AM »
Why stop at just scientists? I am sure the space programs and other 'agencies'  also use professionals from all around the spectrum of degrees!

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 04:29:20 PM »
Love it how I haven't got an answer only misdirection and confusion
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 09:32:53 PM »
And all the telecommunications employees. They'd have to be in on it. And all of the telescope manufacturers would have to be making ViewMasters (toys with photographic slides in them) instead of optical instruments--going back 400 years!
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sceptimatic

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2017, 11:17:01 PM »
Why do scientists need to be taught to lie?
Many real scientists are doing excellent work and will be basically honest people.
I think we are mainly arguing about actors and script followers that play the roles of so called scientists, who are basically taught to sell lies and misdirection.

There will be many scientists who's work will be suppressed or who will no doubt be coaxed into following protocol. They may not like it but the salary and potential to be cast aside on a scrap heap keeps them following a set pattern.

If you think it can't or doesn't happen then live in the world you think is your ideal and never question anything.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2017, 11:46:20 PM »

Jack is not saying they are the masters in his query, far from it. The inference is that they ARE puppets in some way.



Are you Jack's puppet?
Why do you feel the need to sweep in and tell us what Jack is saying?

Do you think Jack is not capable of formulating and presenting his own
thoughts and ideas?

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onebigmonkey

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2017, 11:59:30 PM »
Why do scientists need to be taught to lie?
Many real scientists are doing excellent work and will be basically honest people.

These would be people following the scientific methodology with whose work you agree.

Quote
I think we are mainly arguing about actors and script followers that play the roles of so called scientists, who are basically taught to sell lies and misdirection.

These would be people following the scientific methodology with whose work you disagree.

If you are going to make that statement you need to answer the question in the OP: when does this happen? Who teaches them? Where are they taught this? You never been involved in the process and don't know any actual scientists so you are poorly placed to judge what happens.

Quote
There will be many scientists who's work will be suppressed or who will no doubt be coaxed into following protocol. They may not like it but the salary and potential to be cast aside on a scrap heap keeps them following a set pattern.

What sort of salary do think is involved here? The vast majority of scientists earn very ordinary salaries and they could get much more lucrative careers elsewhere.

Quote
If you think it can't or doesn't happen then live in the world you think is your ideal and never question anything.

Record's stuck again. The people who question things and want answers are doing science. The people who ask questions but don't want answers are not.
Facts won't do what I want them to.

We went from a round Earth to a round Moon: http://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/apollo.html

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2017, 03:03:53 AM »

Jack is not saying they are the masters in his query, far from it. The inference is that they ARE puppets in some way.



Are you Jack's puppet?
Why do you feel the need to sweep in and tell us what Jack is saying?

Do you think Jack is not capable of formulating and presenting his own
thoughts and ideas?

No he isn't my puppet, cute thought though, but no.

What he was doing is furthering the discussion when PO did what he always does which is attack a random part of the sentence etc in a hope it will draw attention to that rather than exposing his hopes and dreams.

Oh and for the record, what oboto thought I meant, was exactly what I meant. Were you expecting us REers to wait for me to come back from dinner to answer a query rather than reply using common sense, if so you really are a tit.
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

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Bullwinkle

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 03:28:32 AM »
Were you expecting us REers to wait for me to come back from dinner  . . .

No.

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 03:32:48 AM »
Were you expecting us REers to wait for me to come back from dinner  . . .

No.

Yet you complained when someone stepped in for me while I was at dinner, so looks like you are contradicting a bit there mate.
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 03:35:22 AM »
Why do scientists need to be taught to lie?
Many real scientists are doing excellent work and will be basically honest people.
I think we are mainly arguing about actors and script followers that play the roles of so called scientists, who are basically taught to sell lies and misdirection.

There will be many scientists who's work will be suppressed or who will no doubt be coaxed into following protocol. They may not like it but the salary and potential to be cast aside on a scrap heap keeps them following a set pattern.

If you think it can't or doesn't happen then live in the world you think is your ideal and never question anything.
I think you seriously underestimate just how many scientists are out that that do work which requires Earth to be round, and then there are all the others that can easily support Earth being round.

No one is being supressed, just unsubstantiated crap can be hard to publish.

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RocksEverywhere

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2017, 03:56:57 AM »
There will be many scientists who's work will be suppressed or who will no doubt be coaxed into following protocol. They may not like it but the salary and potential to be cast aside on a scrap heap keeps them following a set pattern.

What sort of salary do think is involved here? The vast majority of scientists earn very ordinary salaries and they could get much more lucrative careers elsewhere.

So much this. Most scientists can double their pay if they go work for a company instead. In most fields related to earth, physics, engineering etcetera, at least.
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2017, 06:49:00 AM »
So much this. Most scientists can double their pay if they go work for a company instead. In most fields related to earth, physics, engineering etcetera, at least.

You mean if these scientists work for the private sector, they make more money compared to working for a government position, such as at NASA. To be honest, I have no idea if what you are saying is true.
I have searched for chemists job (private sector) to see what is available. The pay is incredibly high. Although, I didn't go in that direction since such jobs are hard to get. I became a techy and my job is boring.

(obviously, since I mentioned I am interested in science, I am NOT a flat earther).

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RocksEverywhere

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2017, 02:53:11 PM »
So much this. Most scientists can double their pay if they go work for a company instead. In most fields related to earth, physics, engineering etcetera, at least.

You mean if these scientists work for the private sector, they make more money compared to working for a government position, such as at NASA. To be honest, I have no idea if what you are saying is true.
I have searched for chemists job (private sector) to see what is available. The pay is incredibly high. Although, I didn't go in that direction since such jobs are hard to get. I became a techy and my job is boring.

(obviously, since I mentioned I am interested in science, I am NOT a flat earther).
As far as I'm aware, universities in general don't pay that well. People don't work at universities to get rich.
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 08:48:01 AM »
Presumably most young people embark on a science career to discover facts.  At some point, if the Round Earth is a hoax, some of those scientists have a struggle with their conscience.  Surely there are some scientists who are financially comfortable or at least not materialistic. 

But, so far, not a single scientist has come forward to say "They tried to bribe me to say the Earth is Round" or "I was taking bribes to say ..." or anything like it. 

Not a single one, in any country.

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 10:18:26 AM »
Presumably most young people embark on a science career to discover facts.  At some point, if the Round Earth is a hoax, some of those scientists have a struggle with their conscience.  Surely there are some scientists who are financially comfortable or at least not materialistic. 

But, so far, not a single scientist has come forward to say "They tried to bribe me to say the Earth is Round" or "I was taking bribes to say ..." or anything like it. 

Not a single one, in any country.
Seems to be the case doesn't it
"Religion is the opium of the people"
Karl Marx

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 04:12:02 PM »
Presumably most young people embark on a science career to discover facts.  At some point, if the Round Earth is a hoax, some of those scientists have a struggle with their conscience.  Surely there are some scientists who are financially comfortable or at least not materialistic. 

But, so far, not a single scientist has come forward to say "They tried to bribe me to say the Earth is Round" or "I was taking bribes to say ..." or anything like it. 

Not a single one, in any country.
Seems to be the case doesn't it

Is this amateur hour?

It doesn't happen.  Anything short of 'going into space' does not matter.  Scientists can think whatever they want.  If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up.  If they happen to believe the earth is not a globe, and that impacts their day to day activity  then they can quit their job and do something else.  End of story.  Its as simple as that.

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rabinoz

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2017, 05:41:22 PM »
Presumably most young people embark on a science career to discover facts.  At some point, if the Round Earth is a hoax, some of those scientists have a struggle with their conscience.  Surely there are some scientists who are financially comfortable or at least not materialistic. 

But, so far, not a single scientist has come forward to say "They tried to bribe me to say the Earth is Round" or "I was taking bribes to say ..." or anything like it. 

Not a single one, in any country.
Seems to be the case doesn't it

Is this amateur hour?

It doesn't happen.  Anything short of 'going into space' does not matter.  Scientists can think whatever they want.  If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up.  If they happen to believe the earth is not a globe, and that impacts their day to day activity  then they can quit their job and do something else.  End of story.  Its as simple as that.
Please justify a silly claim like
"If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up."
in relation to the shape of the earth.

How much scientific literature have you ever read,
even the "lighter" things like New Scientist and not quite so light Scientific American?
How many hats do you have? So many must get worn out with all the "talking through them" that you do!

Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2017, 05:42:20 PM »
Is this amateur hour?
Is that why you are posting again?

It doesn't happen.  Anything short of 'going into space' does not matter.  Scientists can think whatever they want.  If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up.  If they happen to believe the earth is not a globe, and that impacts their day to day activity  then they can quit their job and do something else.  End of story.  Its as simple as that.
Except a significant portion of science requires Earth to be round.
Not only that plenty will defend Round Earth because they know it is true.

Scientists don't invent facts.

When things didn't line up, theories were overhauled/replaced.

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rabinoz

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Re: When is a Scientist taught to lie?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2017, 06:38:59 PM »
If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up.
You make a claim like that with nothing to back it up!

Take gravitation for example.

Before Newton there was little understanding of how gravity behaved.
Galileo did some experiments that disproved the ancient notion that heavier things fell faster.

The Robert Hooke, Isaac Newton and others did numerous measurements involving pendulums, falling objects, objects down slopes and the rates of pendulum clocks at different locations and altitudes.

Unluckily for Hooke, he died before they had produced the "Theory of Universal Gravitation",
or it might have been called "Hooke and Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation".
Though Newton did write, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
to Robert Hooke (15 February 1676) [dated as 5 February 1675 using the Julian calendar.

Now the motions of the planets fitted fairly well with Newton's and Kepler's work. Even the precession of the perihelion for all known planets were predicted quite closely - except for that of Mercury. Newtonian gravitation "predicts a precession of 5557 seconds of arc per century.
There is a discrepancy of
43 seconds of arc per century - a whole 0.8%! Show me any FE measure to even that accuracy!
Yes, only about 3/4 of a minute of arc over a century, compared to the measured figure of 5600 seconds of arc per century!
Did these astronomical scientists "invent their own new facts to make it line up"?
No, they simply accepted that they did not know the reason
and it wasn't till Einstein's GR in 1915 that the reason for the discrepancy was discovered. The sun distorts spacetime a minute amount.
And please note,
Einstein did not develop GR to explain the anomalous precession of the perihelion of Mercury!
So gravitation (with GR corrections if necessary) fits observations in our local regions extremely well.

But, these "pesky" cosmologists found that the rotation galaxies did not quite match expectations.
They could easily have conspired to hide these "inconvenient" observations, but they publicised them!
And now, of course, the hunt is for the explanation and scientists are quite prepared to admit that previous theories, even GR, might be either wrong of only partially correct.

In general, scientists do not sweep their failings "under the carpet".
I say "in general" because there have been more than suspicions raised relating to "scientists" employed by "big tobacco" and "big pharma".

But there is no evidence that this happens in areas of astronomer and cosmology.

The ultimate cause of gravitation and the failings of the current ideas are certainly all out there to see!
The New Scientist of 18 March 2017, has an article entitled "What's up with Gravity, Strangely Attractive".
This outlines of the problems of gravitation on a big scale, but there has never been a suggestion of any discrepancies nearby.

So, Silicon, back up your assertion that
"If something doesn't line up, they will invent their own new facts to make it line up."
or just admit that you made it up!