An observation about Attitude Indicators on aircraft.

Why is the horizon line on all Attitude Indicator instruments a flat level line, straight across?



Shouldn't they curve to correctly represent the curve of ball earth? I mean, the pilots are navigating a ball, right, not a flat plane:

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Why is the horizon line on all Attitude Indicator instruments a flat level line, straight across?



Shouldn't they curve to correctly represent the curve of ball earth? I mean, the pilots are navigating a ball, right, not a flat plane:

i think it is a curve with a radius of 6372 km.
would have to ask a manufacturer of the devices.

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the horizon line on all Attitude Indicator instruments a flat level line, straight across?

• The horizontal line shows only a very small section of the horizon.
• As you have been told numerous times before the horizon on a Globe shows no curve at low altitude and on very little even at 45,000 ft.
  But a little can be seen as in this video
  ]
  Show me the Curvature... Here it is. Wolfie6020

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">PPL Ground School: Attitude Indicator, Marvin Flop

Shouldn't they curve to correctly represent the curve of ball earth? I mean, the pilots are navigating a ball, right, not a flat plane:

No, see above!

" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Cockpit view - Boeing 747-400F Landing Amsterdam Schiphol, The Pilot Channel

Some International Airline pilots claim that they know the earth is a Globe and are prepared to post videos about it:
And
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Another Ocean Sunrise - more evidence of Horizon Drop, Wolfie6020.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ocean Sunrise at 45,000 ft provides more evidence of Horizon drop, Wolfie6020.

Apologies for the previous post: again, shouldn't post without coffee.
Let me rephrase, and please correct me if I get this wrong


When you turn your steering wheel to go around a constant curve like a curve on a roundabout, you turn it to a specific point and stop - if the curve is constant all the way around, you don't keep turning the wheel around and around to accommodate the curve.

This seems to lend to the idea that Flat Earth Theorists thing that in the Spherical Earth model, boats at the equator sail sideways and people in Australia and Chile are hanging off the earth like bats.

You're missing the whole point of relative perspective. Again.

Let's try this one, physical observer.

Define "up" and "down"

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

Your answers never answer direct questions - how can you expect that from others?

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Yep, that curvature is just out-of-sight, right? Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. You can't observe a curvature that is not there, and low and behold, you just can't see the curvature of earth. But, instead of you RE-ers saying it just doesn't exist, you start inventing multiple excuse as to why it just doesn't exist.

The question was, why doesn't the horizon line on the indicator represent the curvature that these pilots navigate? Or does the horizon line indicator represent earth already, a motionless plane, not a ball.

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 07:35:38 AM

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Yep, that curvature is just out-of-sight, right? Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. You can't observe a curvature that is not there, and low and behold, you just can't see the curvature of earth. But, instead of you RE-ers saying it just doesn't exist, you start inventing multiple excuse as to why it just doesn't exist.

The question was, why doesn't the horizon line on the indicator represent the curvature that these pilots navigate? Or does the horizon line indicator represent earth already, a motionless plane, not a ball.

Are you familiar with the term "logical fallacy?"

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

i answered your question:

the line is a arc with a radius of 6372km

prove me wrong, i bed you can not.

case closed

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:54:03 PM

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 07:35:38 AM

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Yep, that curvature is just out-of-sight, right? Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. You can't observe a curvature that is not there, and low and behold, you just can't see the curvature of earth. But, instead of you RE-ers saying it just doesn't exist, you start inventing multiple excuse as to why it just doesn't exist.

The question was, why doesn't the horizon line on the indicator represent the curvature that these pilots navigate? Or does the horizon line indicator represent earth already, a motionless plane, not a ball.

Are you familiar with the term "logical fallacy?"

Can you say, I don't have a logical answer? Why do you cast the blame at others when you lack the ability to answer honestly? Do you know why the horizon line on the attitude indicator is a flat level line, and not curved, because pilots navigate a plane earth. See, I need no more explanations, but you RE-ers need about a dozen to explain away what is not observed.

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The AI is not an earth model. The purpose of the instrument is to show the plane's attitude in relation to the horizon. At the aircraft scale and typical altitude, straight is functional.

The only time a plane would see curve is 60000feet+. Hardly any planes go that high - and, even if they did, the curve would be so subtle that a straight line on the AI would still work fine.

Mechanical gyro AIs in most commercial and military aircraft are backup instruments. Certainly wouldn't be a primary instrument in an aircraft travelling at an altitude where curvature could be viewed.

So a simple answer to your question is: there's no point manufacturing something that functionally provides no advantage and is barely relevant to a handful of aircraft that don't need it.

The earth is massive, when will that truth sink into FE people?

Quote from: Novarus on April 05, 2017, 02:01:06 PM

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:54:03 PM

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 07:35:38 AM

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Yep, that curvature is just out-of-sight, right? Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. You can't observe a curvature that is not there, and low and behold, you just can't see the curvature of earth. But, instead of you RE-ers saying it just doesn't exist, you start inventing multiple excuse as to why it just doesn't exist.

The question was, why doesn't the horizon line on the indicator represent the curvature that these pilots navigate? Or does the horizon line indicator represent earth already, a motionless plane, not a ball.

Are you familiar with the term "logical fallacy?"

Can you say, I don't have a logical answer? Why do you cast the blame at others when you lack the ability to answer honestly? Do you know why the horizon line on the attitude indicator is a flat level line, and not curved, because pilots navigate a plane earth. See, I need no more explanations, but you RE-ers need about a dozen to explain away what is not observed.

Pilots do not navigate a plane earth.

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

You are of course correct in what you say, but what is really telling about the original question is the deep seated ignorance it demonstrates coupled with an unerring inability to grasp fairly basic concepts about the world in which we all live.

Quote from: Novarus on April 05, 2017, 02:01:06 PM

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:54:03 PM

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 07:35:38 AM

I have told an innumerable number of times that the curvature of the earth is negligible for small distances. To see a curvature of 0.1 degree, you need to represent 11km.

Check my replies in this post: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=70071.0

Yep, that curvature is just out-of-sight, right? Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. You can't observe a curvature that is not there, and low and behold, you just can't see the curvature of earth. But, instead of you RE-ers saying it just doesn't exist, you start inventing multiple excuse as to why it just doesn't exist.

The question was, why doesn't the horizon line on the indicator represent the curvature that these pilots navigate? Or does the horizon line indicator represent earth already, a motionless plane, not a ball.

Are you familiar with the term "logical fallacy?"

Can you say, I don't have a logical answer? Why do you cast the blame at others when you lack the ability to answer honestly? Do you know why the horizon line on the attitude indicator is a flat level line, and not curved, because pilots navigate a plane earth. See, I need no more explanations, but you RE-ers need about a dozen to explain away what is not observed.

If pilots navigate a plane earth, then explain why the non stop flight time from Los Angeles to Seoul takes The same amount of time as a non stop flight from Sydney to Santiago de Chile.

On a flat earth this is not possible, unless the latter flight is performed at anywhere from 2 to 8 times the speed of the former, depending on your map projection.

Incidentally, the line is straight because that is what we see from our small perspective since the Earth is far more massive than you seem to be able to comprehend.
The conclusion you are trying to draw is a logical fallacy.

You once again have refused to take into account the concept of relative size. Exactly how big do you think the Earth is?

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The indicator line is curved like the ball earth. Same radius. So your query is moot.

Why is the horizon line on all Attitude Indicator instruments a flat level line, straight across?
Shouldn't they curve to correctly represent the curve of ball earth? I mean, the pilots are navigating a ball, right, not a flat plane:

Because it isn't acting as a horizon, it is acting as a level indicator for the craft.
It doesn't even indicate the angle of dip to the horizon.
It is simply showing the point where the aircraft has a 0 degree angle of elevation/depression.

Having it curved would make it so much harder to line up, especially if they then go inverted or the like, which I admit, isn't much of a problem for commercial aircraft.

Regardless, on the ground, there would be no apparent curve due to the distances involved, then there is the issue of planes flying, being at varying altitudes.
The distance to the horizon and the apparent curvature of the horizon (and angle of dip) is dependent on altitude.

So which one would you like it to match? Ground level?
Cruising altitude (if so which one)?
Or somehow magically match all of them?

The real question is why should it be curved?

It isn't meant to be a perfect depiction of reality.
It is meant to be a tool to measure something, specifically the attitude of the plane. So why should it be curved as that doesn't help that measurement at all?

Shouldn't they curve to correctly represent the curve of ball earth? I mean, the pilots are navigating a ball, right, not a flat plane:

Physical Observer,
If by “correctly” you mean accurately and by “represent” you mean (proportional to the display size) then:

I did the math and the curve that most PRACTICALLY represents the earth for a static display (the horizon width) of approx.3” (=76.2mm) wide is a straight line.  Besides, I seriously doubt that depiction of the horizon in this instrumentation is manufactured to a straight line within error any better than .0001 in/in (see GD&T ASME Y14.5M-1994). 

If you disagree please propose a manufacturing method (including metrology equipment to validate) that would more “correctly represent” the curve over a display width of around 3” (=76.2mm).  Also, if you think it matters to any practical degree go ahead use any display width from 1/16 of an inch to 100 inches wide (or smaller or larger if you prefer).

I’ll even give you the equation. It can be derived from the center-radius form equation for a circle using x and y coordinates and center coordinates (x=h, y=k) which is:
(x-h)^2 + (y-k)^2= R^2  ( you can look this up almost anywhere and test it out)
Let’s center the circle of interest at x=0, this means h=0
Let k=R, so we have x^2+(y-R)^2=R^2

Let’s solve this equation for y as we are interested in the deviation or vertical distance that the curve of a circle is to a straight line (at y= 0) at a point along the x-axis.
y-0= R-SQRT(R^2-X^2) and y-0=R+SQRT(R^2-X^2) (But we’ll ignore this other solution because we are not looking for the farther y-point on the circle from the straight line).

So we have: y-0=R-SQRT(R^2-X^2) which is not yet convenient so we’ll make some substitutions.
Let y-0= Delta (to represent the difference between the curve and straight line at y=0 the horizon)
Let X=1/2*W where W is the width of the attitude display graphic.  This is because we want a line that is centered above the circle which is also centered at x=0 and positive x represents only half of the display width W.

So substituting these terms we arrive at:
Delta (R,W) = R-SQRT (R^2-W^2/4) for W<=2R=Dia. (Diameter = 2 * Radius of a circle)
In other words this says don’t choose a W value larger than the Diameter of the circle or we’ll no longer be looking at a point y on the circle we are interested in.

Where:
Delta=deviation of curve to end point of straight line of width W where W represents the width of the display.
W=width/length of Display (length of horizon on Display) where horizon is depicted.
R=Radius of Earth (or any circle or sphere of size you wish)
Delta (R, W) = R-SQRT(R^2-W^2/4) for W<=2R

A quick informal inspection reveals that with R and W so vastly different in magnitude the answer will be practically 0 but we’ll go through it.  Basically for a number as large as R^2 being reduced by a number as small as W^2/4 the equation is practically Delta = R-R= 0

For sake of demonstrating the calculation without involving the importance of considering significant figures (certainty and tolerance of 3959 miles compared to certainty and tolerance of 3 inches) let’s assume that the following values are exact.  Pay attention to the number of digits here in these numbers.

R= 3959 mi x (5280 ft/mi) x (12 in/ft) = 250842240 inches
W= 3 inches
Delta = 250842240 inches – SQRT( 62921829368217600 inches – 9 inches/4)= 4.4848 x10^-9 inches = 4.48 nanoinches.  Repeat NANOINCHES!

The roundest man made object in the world deviates from a sphere by up to .000003” (3* 10 ^-6 or “3 millionths of an inch”).  The roundest man made object has 670 times larger the amount of surface deviation from a sphere than a straight line does to a circle the size of earth over a width or span of 3”.  Splitting hairs is not even a figure of speech that would put this level of nonsense in the ballpark. 
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14229-roundest-objects-in-the-world-created/

Is there any criticism more pedantic and impractical than what is otherwise a very reasonable omission of “representative curvature” of earth over 3” of width?
You would have had a much more valid point by criticizing the ground being depicted as brown and featureless or the particular shade of blue used if you are concerned with correct representation.

So what exactly do you mean by “correctly represent” other than to reveal your naive criticism and suggest a most extreme inability/denial to grasp/acknowledge the scale of things?

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

How many answers do you want?
From a low altitude there is no visible curvature on that horizon!

Even from 45,000 ft it is barely perceptible - you did look at the video?
So you tell me how much curve should be on that short line to match the earth's curve even from 45,000 ft.

And who cares? Other than an ignorant nit-picker like physical observer.

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The curvature is too small over small distances. I am not surprised that you still struggle to understand. Only dumb people are flat earth believers and all scientists are round earth believers.

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:45:56 PM

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The curvature is too small over small distances. I am not surprised that you still struggle to understand. Only dumb people are flat earth believers and all scientists are round earth believers.

Yep, the curvature just can't be detected, can it? You know why, because it is not there. Your need to insult shows your failure in supporting your claim.

I'll be waiting for your visual evidence concerning water. 

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:45:56 PM

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The curvature is too small over small distances. I am not surprised that you still struggle to understand. Only dumb people are flat earth believers and all scientists are round earth believers.

Yep, the curvature just can't be detected, can it? You know why, because it is not there. Your need to insult shows your failure in supporting your claim.

I'll be waiting for your visual evidence concerning water.

The curvature can be detected. It is too small to be worried about when you are flying planes. I told you before that to see a curvature of 30 degrees, you need to reach an altitude of 1000km.

Moreover, the surface is uneven to measure the curvature of earth accurately at low altitudes. You need to go to the sea. If you go the see, you can measure the curvature of the earth with sensitive equipment but your eye won't notice it until you sufficiently high.

Quote from: physical observer on April 06, 2017, 03:13:01 AM

Quote from: Yashas on April 05, 2017, 06:20:20 PM

Quote from: physical observer on April 05, 2017, 01:45:56 PM

Quote from: southern hemispherer on April 05, 2017, 11:24:47 AM

Do you have an attitude indicator in your car? Seeing that you see as much curvature from ground level as from an aeroplane, why don't you invest in one, Mr physical observer?

Why is the indicator line straight across, level and not curved like the ball earth? Your answer didn't answer the query.

The curvature is too small over small distances. I am not surprised that you still struggle to understand. Only dumb people are flat earth believers and all scientists are round earth believers.

Yep, the curvature just can't be detected, can it? You know why, because it is not there. Your need to insult shows your failure in supporting your claim.

I'll be waiting for your visual evidence concerning water.

The curvature can be detected. It is too small to be worried about when you are flying planes. I told you before that to see a curvature of 30 degrees, you need to reach an altitude of 1000km.

Moreover, the surface is uneven to measure the curvature of earth accurately at low altitudes. You need to go to the sea. If you go the see, you can measure the curvature of the earth with sensitive equipment but your eye won't notice it until you sufficiently high.

I see you have not re-entered your thread to give me your visual proof of what you claim about water and natural forces.

"...but your eye won't notice it until you sufficiently high."

Yeah, back in the early 30s, there was a PhD Physicists that did get "sufficiently high" enough, 10 miles up, and he described earth as "flat with up-turned edges". Mainstream materialistic science ignores what he claimed. Aguste Piccard, ever heard of him?

Can you give his name please? I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb.

10 miles isn't enough. You see just about 0.1 degree of curvature. Our eyes cannot see it.

We have also had mathematicians who went to redefine pi and people ignored him. There are dumb and retarded scientists too. We also have scientists who are creationists. It is so ironic.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!

We did not have aeroplanes or hot air baloons which could take you that high in the 30s. We did not have cameras which could record videos either.

Can you give his name please? I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb.

10 miles isn't enough. You see just about 0.1 degree of curvature. Our eyes cannot see it.

We have also had mathematicians who went to redefine pi and people ignored him. There are dumb and retarded scientists too. We also have scientists who are creationists. It is so ironic.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!

We did not have aeroplanes or hot air baloons which could take you that high in the 30s. We did not have cameras which could record videos either.

"Can you give his name please?"

I did.

"I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb."

You're living proof. "Aguste Piccard, ever heard of him?"

Quote from: Yashas on April 06, 2017, 03:51:53 AM

Can you give his name please? I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb.

10 miles isn't enough. You see just about 0.1 degree of curvature. Our eyes cannot see it.

We have also had mathematicians who went to redefine pi and people ignored him. There are dumb and retarded scientists too. We also have scientists who are creationists. It is so ironic.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!

We did not have aeroplanes or hot air baloons which could take you that high in the 30s. We did not have cameras which could record videos either.

"Can you give his name please?"

I did.

"I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb."

You're living proof. "Aguste Piccard, ever heard of him?"

yes we heard of him.
his quote was:
“(The Earth) seemed a flat disc with an upturned edge.”

so what is this upturned edge?
is that the Ice Wall?

now planes are flying that high, why do they can not see the upturned edge of the earth?

"My son's playground ball is round. How could we have a round ball if the Earth is flat. If he Earth were flat, wouldn't his ball be shaped like a pancake?" (This is what you sound like to us.)

Quote from: Yashas on April 06, 2017, 03:51:53 AM

Can you give his name please? I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb.

10 miles isn't enough. You see just about 0.1 degree of curvature. Our eyes cannot see it.

We have also had mathematicians who went to redefine pi and people ignored him. There are dumb and retarded scientists too. We also have scientists who are creationists. It is so ironic.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!

We did not have aeroplanes or hot air baloons which could take you that high in the 30s. We did not have cameras which could record videos either.

"Can you give his name please?"

I did.

"I doubt that a high school pass out can be that dumb."

You're living proof. "Aguste Piccard, ever heard of him?"

Try Auguste Piccard, ever heard of him?

Now, Mr Pretend Observer, Yashas actually said "10 miles isn't enough."
Now Auguste Piccard reached 9.8 miles (15,785 m to be precise), not quite even the 10 miles that Yashas said "isn't enough."

So stop being such a know-it-all! Who seems to know SFA!

"My son's playground ball is round. How could we have a round ball if the Earth is flat. If he Earth were flat, wouldn't his ball be shaped like a pancake?" (This is what you sound like to us.)

yeah exactly, why are some fruits round? If they grow on a flat earth, shouldn't they be flat? I'm surprised these people can even work their computers to watch their youtube "proofs".