Circular Reasoning?

  • 20 Replies
  • 1696 Views
Circular Reasoning?
« on: February 19, 2017, 06:42:26 PM »
Most of your arguments rest upon the presuppositions that NASA and the government have been lying to us. How, may I ask, do you know this?

This seems to be circular reasoning (your premise assumes the answer).
In order to think that the Earth is flat, you need to assume that all of these people are lying. You would need a reason to think that they are lying. You would think that the Earth is flat, therefor the government is lying.

The Earth is flat-I know because the government is lying-I know they are lying because they are hiding the truth that the Earth flat.

Also, on your FAQ, it states, "During the Cold War we faked the moon landing." This assumes that we faked the moon landing. If we did, then your argument stands. However, if we didn't fake it, then your argument is falsified. This again is circular reasoning.

I can reverse both of these claims at you. "I know the Earth is round because the government isn't lying." This is the reverse of "I know the Earth is flat since the government is lying." When you don't 100% know if they are lying or not, both claims are possible.

If I am wrong about the viewpoints, please correct me as I am new to this theory.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:45:54 PM by Ghastslayer »

?

Twerp

  • Gutter Sniper
  • Flat Earth Almost Believer
  • 6522
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2017, 07:19:09 PM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.

*

disputeone

  • Ranters
  • 16810
  • Or should I?
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2017, 07:57:52 PM »
Most of your arguments rest upon the presuppositions that NASA and the government have been lying to us. How, may I ask, do you know this?

May I ask, how do you know they are not?

#FESjustifyyourbeliefs.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 07:28:15 AM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.

Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39118
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 08:52:52 AM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.

Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
Then why is any evidence from NASA immediately dismissed as fake when trying to show that the view from "out your window" is not sufficient evidence to support the notion of a flat earth.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 11:05:10 AM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.

Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
Then why is any evidence from NASA immediately dismissed as fake when trying to show that the view from "out your window" is not sufficient evidence to support the notion of a flat earth.

See, you are obsessed with the govt lying!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

disputeone

  • Ranters
  • 16810
  • Or should I?
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2017, 02:00:02 PM »
I see what you did there.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

*

JRoweSkeptic

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 5407
  • DET Developer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2017, 03:35:33 PM »
Issues with NASA are a conclusion, not a premise.
http://fet.wikia.com
dualearththeory.proboards.com/
On the sister site if you want to talk.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2017, 09:04:10 PM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.
Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
So this photograph, not even from NASA, proves that the earth is a globe then?


Himawari Real-Time Image 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017, Full Disk, Full Color reproduction Image.
That photo was taken at 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017 or 11:40 AM local time, downloaded it at 11:47 AM local time.

Of course, it is not shown rotating there, but I could get a time-lapse fro EPIC on DSCOVR to rectify that.

 :P So, shut up shop. The earth is proven to be a Globe.  :P

?

Twerp

  • Gutter Sniper
  • Flat Earth Almost Believer
  • 6522
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2017, 09:57:32 PM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.
Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
So this photograph, not even from NASA, proves that the earth is a globe then?

:P So, shut up shop. The earth is proven to be a Globe.  :P

I agree with your proof.

But the OP was that the premise of the FE argument or belief was that NASA was lying. This is what I disagreed with.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2017, 10:30:56 PM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.
Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
So this photograph, not even from NASA, proves that the earth is a globe then?

:P So, shut up shop. The earth is proven to be a Globe.  :P

I agree with your proof.

But the OP was that the premise of the FE argument or belief was that NASA was lying. This is what I disagreed with.
I wasn't questioning your premise.  ;D All we need now is SCG's agreement.  ;D

?

totallackey

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 4114
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2017, 03:20:15 AM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.
Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
So this photograph, not even from NASA, proves that the earth is a globe then?


Himawari Real-Time Image 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017, Full Disk, Full Color reproduction Image.
That photo was taken at 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017 or 11:40 AM local time, downloaded it at 11:47 AM local time.

Of course, it is not shown rotating there, but I could get a time-lapse fro EPIC on DSCOVR to rectify that.

 :P So, shut up shop. The earth is proven to be a Globe.  :P

Kindly point out what the measurements are of the supposed "globe," according to that picture...

Looks more like an egg to me.
The NIST report(s) never went through what we would call peer review (Much like an FAA crash report doesn't either). But reports based upon NIST findings have.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 04:52:42 AM »
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original evidence for a flat earth was simply "Look out your window." This has nothing to do with NASA.
Exactly. FEers aren't nearly as obsessed with the govt lying as the RE who come here.
So this photograph, not even from NASA, proves that the earth is a globe then?


Himawari Real-Time Image 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017, Full Disk, Full Color reproduction Image.
That photo was taken at 01:40 UTC 12 February 2017 or 11:40 AM local time, downloaded it at 11:47 AM local time.

Of course, it is not shown rotating there, but I could get a time-lapse fro EPIC on DSCOVR to rectify that.

 :P So, shut up shop. The earth is proven to be a Globe.  :P

Kindly point out what the measurements are of the supposed "globe," according to that picture...

Looks more like an egg to me.
You do have funny eggs at your place.

On that small copy, the lit part of the earth is 572   pixels wide x 576 pixels high.
I had thought that even you might have recognised that a little of the top and left is not fully lit by the sun yet, so you are not seeing quite the full hemisphere.

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2017, 10:08:46 AM »
That photo proves that someone can make pretty pictures.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2017, 12:50:28 PM »
That photo proves that someone can make pretty pictures.
Just a bit more than that. It proves that I can get the current version of that photo of the "Eastern Hemisphere" made to order in a few tens of minutes.

Himawari Real-Time Image 20:30 UTC 21 February 2017, Full Disk, Full Color reproduction Image.
That's the current image, taken 20 minutes ago.  ;D Very fast little workers over there in Japan!  ;D

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2017, 12:58:29 PM »
They can make pretty pictures really fast! Don't know what this has to do with REers obsession with the lying govt.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2017, 01:41:39 PM »
They can make pretty pictures really fast! Don't know what this has to do with REers obsession with the lying govt.
It is more like Flattie's obsession that everyone else in lying as soon as any evidence against the flat earth pops up, which is every day!
But we all know that the FE is only propped up by its conspiracy claim:
Quote
P1) If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated

P2) The FET (Flat Earth Theory) is an obvious truth

P3) There is personally unverifiable evidence that contradicts the FET

C1) The unverifiable evidence that contradicts the FET is fabricated evidence

P4) If there is large amounts of fabricated evidence then there must be a conspiracy to fabricate it

P5) There is a large amount of fabricated evidence (see C1)

C2) There must be a conspiracy to fabricate it.
And obviously satellite photos, astronomical observations, reports of others visiting Antarctica, reports of others performing measurements, etc are all (for most of us) personally unverifiable.

If all that isn't circular reasoning, I can't imagine what is!

To me it looks like as case of:
"The earth is flat" therefore "any (personally unverifiable) evidence agains the flat earth is fabricated" therefore "The earth is flat".
Or "The earth is flat" therefore "The earth is flat". QED

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2017, 03:58:56 PM »
Yes, the earth is flat!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2017, 07:20:04 PM »
Yes, the earth is flat!
And your whole argument seems to be "the earth is flat" because "the earth is flat".
Any counter argument is automatically deemed false.
Mind you there is no consensus on even what this "flat earth" looks like.
          At last count, I saw at least four, plus of course, İntikam's.
Is there a South Pole?
Two "continental layouts" have a South Pole, but proponents of the others will argue quite vociferously that there is no South Pole.

And there is no consensus on what causes gravity.
          At last count, I saw at least six, plus of course, İntikam's.

Sure, you claim it's flat, but nobody has any idea what it looks like or how it works!
I claim it's a joke, at least until someone has some idea of how this flat earth works.

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Administrator
  • 41048
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2017, 09:58:18 AM »
Look outside and see what it looks like.  Really, rab, you should go outside sometimes.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

rabinoz

  • 24910
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Circular Reasoning?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2017, 10:56:21 PM »
Look outside and see what it looks like.  Really, rab, you should go outside sometimes.
I often go outside, even at night and see the stars rotating clockwise about a single point due south.

I also see a horizon that doesn't fit any flat earth that I can imagine:

I don't know how you explain the horizon of the Flat Earth, but I have seen it explained as: "The atmolayer" not being "perfectly transparent, limits the range of our vision.
So it would seem that this fading into "a blur in all directions" would make the horizon a hazy blur with the distance unable to be estimated.

But we do not see that. What we see is more like in these photos:

Sharp Horizon from near Sea Level - at Shorncliffe

To me, it proves that the horizon is comparatively close.

Then quite a small change in height changes the distance to the horizon quite markedly - why if the earth is flat?

Scarborough, Horizon past Beacon
     

Scarborough, Beacon on Horizon
In these the horizon is only a few kilometers away, so we see a sharp sky-sea horizon line. 

The latitude and longitude of the beacon were found from local navigational charts and this Google Earth view shows the location of that beacon as being 2.61 km from the beach (the camera has GPS to give its location).

With the Metabunk, Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator we can check if the near water distance is reasonable.
Quote
Distance = 2.61 km, View Height = 0.54 meters, Radius = 6371 km
Horizon = 2.61 km, Bulge = 0.13 meters, Drop = 0.53 meters
Hidden = None, horizon is beyond the target distance
I should point out that I was crouching at the edge of the water (not wanting to get me or the camera wet) and did not measure the camera height, but 0.5 m or so seems right.

The nearest I can estimate is that the second photo was taken from about 3 m above water level (that's the extra elevation given on Google Earth).
For this height the "Metabunk, Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator" gives the horizon distance 6.18 km.
Quote
Distance = 2.61 km, View Height = 3 meters, Radius = 6371 km.
Horizon = 6.18 km, Bulge = 0.13 meters
Drop = 0.53 meters, Hidden= None, horizon is beyond the target distance
There is no easy of estimating the horizon distance from the photograph from the photograph, but it is certainly well past the beacon's known 2.61 km.

This is a long-winded way of saying that I am certain that the horizon distance is quite within a visible distance and does increase with increased viewing height.

So yes, Mom, I do look outside and actually observe my surroundings, taking photos where appropriate.
And I realise that in Florida
you don't dare go outside for fear that the alligators will get you, unless those mosquitoes have chased the alligators away, then they use you as dessert.

So how do you explain the sharp near horizon that we see on the real earth?