Poll

What is the truth about the 911 attack on the World Trade Center?

Hijacked Planes were flown into the two towers.  Resulting fires caused the collapse.
14 (60.9%)
The planes were CGI and it was controlled demolition
2 (8.7%)
Something other than planes were flown into the twin towers,  missiles drones etc.
2 (8.7%)
The planes were holographic projections from a special satellite, and it was a directed energy weapon
1 (4.3%)
Something else.
3 (13%)
Denspressure
1 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Voting closed: March 06, 2017, 10:56:40 PM

911 What is the truth?

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2430 on: March 18, 2017, 05:32:34 PM »
Now, on 9/11, why didn't structural resistance, cause structural resistance?

Seems like you don't wanna admit the 2.25 seconds of gravitational acceleration to yourself.

Yes. This again.

Instead of expressing structural resistance in units we can use a percentage.

Say 100% structural resistance will hold the building up exactly, any more weight and it will start to collapse. Most working loads are two to four times the fail point.
So we can safely assume building 7 had over 100% structural resistance before it fell.

So we have gravitational acceleration - percentage of structural resistance = fall acceleration.

9.8m/s2×75%=7.35m/s2

9.8 m/s2 - 7.35m/s2 = 2.45 m/s2

At 75% structural resistance I would predict a 2.45m/s2 fall acceleration.

For 2.25 seconds a 9.8m/s2 fall acceleration was observed therefore in those 2.25 seconds the structure experienced zero structural resistance.

So, G- %S = F
Gravitational acceleration - percentage of structural resistance = fall acceleration.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 05:55:30 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2431 on: March 18, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »
If I run a 10 second quarter mile my acceleration is on average 8.04 m/s2

No, it's not. The equations you used are for constant acceleration, not average acceleration.

Quote
If we wanna get real fancy we can plot change of acceleration using calculus.

What on earth are you talking about?

Quote
How do you calculate "free fall"; i mean it's not like "free fall" is a simple thing.

You are confusing acceleration with velocity. Not gonna say it again.

That would be a good idea, since I don't think he is confusing the two. Either directly quote where he confused the two, or stop making false accusations.

@User324:
That being said, User324, yes, the top edge of the building underwent a 2 second period of near freefall. You can calculate the acceleration of the top edge of the building by tracking its position in videos. I did this. The center-east part of the north edge was at approximately freefall, +/- 0.5 m/s2 for resolution precision. Double that for scale precision. So, probably within 10% of freefall. From a different video, I measured the north-west corner at 0.85 g, but it was a lower resolution video, so plenty of room for error. (disclaimer: values came from memory.)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:25:55 PM by TotesReptilian »

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2432 on: March 18, 2017, 06:38:21 PM »
If I run a 10 second quarter mile my acceleration is on average 8.04 m/s2

No, it's not. The equations you used are for constant acceleration, not average acceleration.

That's what I meant, in reality the acceleration wouldn't be constant.

Unless it was averaged out over a certain distance.

Building 7 didn't accelerate at 9.8m/s2 through its entire collapse, just for 2.25 seconds it was accelerating absolutely as fast as possible under gravity.

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote
If we wanna get real fancy we can plot change of acceleration using calculus.

What on earth are you talking about?

Quote
It is well known that the first derivative of position (symbol x) with respect to time is velocity (symbol v) and the second is acceleration (symbol a). It is a little less well known that the third derivative, i.e. the rate of change of acceleration, is technically known as jerk (symbol j).

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html

Jerk  ;)


How do you calculate "free fall"; i mean it's not like "free fall" is a simple thing.

Quote
You are confusing acceleration with velocity. Not gonna say it again.

That would be a good idea, since I don't think he is confusing the two. Either directly quote where he confused the two, or stop making false accusations.

NIST calculated a 2.25 second fall at 9.8 m/s2.

It is quite easy to calculate acceleration.

What do you want me to say Totes?


@User324:
That being said, User324, yes, the top edge of the building underwent a 2 second period of near freefall. You can calculate the acceleration of the top edge of the building by tracking its position in videos. I did this. The center-east part of the north edge was at approximately freefall, +/- 0.5 m/s2 for resolution precision. Double that for scale precision. So, probably within 10% of freefall. From a different video, I measured the north-west corner at 0.85 g, but it was a lower resolution video, so plenty of room for error. (disclaimer: values came from memory.)

Unfortunately we are using NIST's analysis, not yours, Totes.

I would agree you could do a much better analysis than the """scientists""" working at NIST.

Also, sorry, did you have a point?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2433 on: March 18, 2017, 06:42:46 PM »
The building falls symmetrically, for 2.25 seconds at gravitational acceleration.

Please note no one has been able to explain this since page one.

It relies on the building instantly losing all of its structural integrity.

This is not reality.





Why are you here?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:44:57 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2434 on: March 18, 2017, 07:10:07 PM »
How do you calculate "free fall"; i mean it's not like "free fall" is a simple thing.

Quote
You are confusing acceleration with velocity. Not gonna say it again.

That would be a good idea, since I don't think he is confusing the two. Either directly quote where he confused the two, or stop making false accusations.

NIST calculated a 2.25 second fall at 9.8 m/s2.

It is quite easy to calculate acceleration.

What do you want me to say Totes?

I want you to directly quote where he confuses acceleration with velocity, or stop making weird accusations.

Quote
Unfortunately we are using NIST's analysis, not yours, Totes.

And NIST didn't report an uncertainty for their estimate of the acceleration (page 45), so we can't get a good estimate of what constitutes "negligible".

Quote
Also, sorry, did you have a point?

My point is that you keep claiming there was "zero structural resistance". But the only conclusion we can come to was that there was negligible structural resistance for a 2 second period. The problem is that you haven't bothered to do any kind of estimate of what you expect the structural resistance to be. Until we do, we don't know whether "negligible structural resistance" is realistic or not.

Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2435 on: March 18, 2017, 07:11:30 PM »
Ignoring proof presented and calling people liers isn't the same as it not being explained.  You've taken a video from one perspective and based your entire theory on it....


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Twerp

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2437 on: March 18, 2017, 07:20:37 PM »
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:25:48 PM by Boots »
“Heaven is being governed by Devil nowadays..” - Wise

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2438 on: March 18, 2017, 07:20:50 PM »
Sigh.... These arguments  :(

Since you still think a building can't fall - more or less- straight down, I'll quote myself a third time - I hope you start to understand :)
Quote
Physics says that gravitational force points into the center of the earth. So for it to not collaps straight down you'd need a great enough force to pull it to one side. This force might occure or might not. But generally there is no need for it to not-collapse straight down; it's just not true to say so.
For it to slide to one side that force might be due to a leaning ground; but if the ground is rectangular to the force of gravity, this force is 0 since m*g*cos(90)=0.


Also, you still are thinking your "free fall argument" holds any validity, when it has been shown multiple times it does not.

What in the world is this? On object will always fall into the path of the least resistance... This is all a demo is, manipulating mass and removing resistance. Why do you think the number one issue with a demo is making the building fall into itself...it's hard, not easy...And certainly not natural.

When was the last time you cut down a tree and it fell into its own foot print? Seen failed demos? What happens? they either don't collapse, fall over a direction, or partially collapse.

If I am drunk and fall over, I am going to fall forward or backwards, not vaporize into my own foot print.

If the windows were blown out from compression, it would not be just small spots, just so happening to be in the most useful spot for a demo. Excluding lower ten and upper ten...This is demo 101.

If they were blown from compression it would be entire floors.

Which is why I suspect it was just deformation of the window frames. On the other hand, many of the floors had already collapsed according to the NIST. This would make oddly shaped chambers for the air to flow through.

Quote
The core was not concrete, it was steel encased in concrete, with fire retardant material.

You both keep saying "core" singular. Was there one monolithic "core", or were the 20 something central columns each individually encased in concrete?

What?? For starters, multiple core supports, we just refer to it as the core for simplicity.

Deformation of the window frame? This would cause breaking glass, not exploding glass. Plus in a nice pretty line on both sides and in the center...Only there...On 100 percent mandatory positions for a demo...Exploding...Not in the upper or lower 10...Just like a demo...Not to mention DURING it's free fall...Just like a demo.

Lower core, penthouse reacts, then right there, hit the mid section, the rest will take care of itself. Perfection.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, smells like a duck, feels like a duck....It's not an elephant.

finally if it was a demolition,  why did they leave the center core, alone it was still standing 20-30 stories high at the end.
I don't think there is any evidence of this assertion. 

Here you go.  WTC1



That is not the the core column.

Try again.

So what do you think it is?

This video was slowed down anyways, I don't trust it to begin with. Second, no way that is the core, an absolute impossibility.

This would be with controlled demo or the NIST fairy tale.

The way 1,2 and 7 was designed you MUST comprise the core, that is 100 percent mandatory if you don't want it to get ugly. This is with the pancake magic, or with reality.
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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2439 on: March 18, 2017, 07:22:23 PM »

I expect the resistance to be concrete and steel, that is, a non-zero value.

It seems you want me to cite a government report saying 9/11 was an inside job, I can't do that, yet.

Quote from: NIST
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)

Quote from: google
Gravitational acceleration (symbolized g) is an expression used in physics to indicate the intensity of a gravitational field. It is expressed in meters per second squared (m/s 2 ). At the surface of the earth, 1 g is about 9.8 m/s 2 .


You have absolutely no idea, this is one, tiny bit of evidence the 911 truth movement has, it pails in comparison to the overwhelming amount of evidence we have in general.

I dare you to cite "proof" I have ignored.

If you say NIST's wtc 7 report which isn't peer-reviewed, is "classified" and completely unscientific, I will roll my eyes quite vigorously.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:25:56 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2440 on: March 18, 2017, 07:23:51 PM »
The building falls symmetrically...



" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">leaning south
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">middle of north edge sagging

That is slowed down and long after the free-fall, totally expected in a demolition.

Edit for this gem.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, smells like a duck, feels like a duck....It's not an elephant.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:27:59 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2441 on: March 18, 2017, 07:31:55 PM »
Pancaking is used (though I have never seen anything "vaporized", could always account for most of the mass, I have never had any answer to the vaporizing effect, because it has never been seem before)..7 is a good example of natural pancaking. That was a beautiful demo...If it weren't evil the orchestrator deserves an award.

However forget everything...Let's say 100 percent facts, no speculation. The core must be removed to get any of these buildings to collapse as we saw. Simple as that. Thus that rules out fire and planes..

What caused it, I don't care, I have enough to say the official story is a lie..Why? Don't care right now.

Well no..I have never been involved in demoing a building that tall, nor have I ran plane into a building either. However, I have been involved in demoing a building about as tall as 7. Steel framed as well.

Also, forecasting is one of my specialties, that is why I have the programs I have. Also a few of my extra curricular certs specialize in that. As I said before, just a few weeks ago I was part of a couple man engineering team to make the call on the condo fire here to see if it was safe for fire investigators to enter. Burned for almost two days, not a full collapse (concrete base and first floor, wood skeleton, steel spine, 4 stories).. Unfortunately it was a no, even with a death inside. All those people are going to lose all of their belongings, they are going to demo it.

I know what I am looking at, my mind can process and predict well, my programs even better.

I also know that 15 percent of a top of a structure cannot pulverize 85 percent of the bottom part. Especially the lower 44....The physics don't work. I also know what I saw on 7, it had every sign of a CD.

I can speak from models, from experience, from education, and from common sense...What we saw is in no way possible the way we are supposed to believe. 1 and 2 is a no...7 is a resounding no.


Edit..Totes..What do you think a demo is 100 percent symmetrical? Come on... A precent or two lean here or there as it falls is acceptable.
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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2442 on: March 18, 2017, 07:44:51 PM »
I expect the resistance to be concrete and steel, that is, a non-zero value.

No one is claiming it is a zero value. It was a negligible value for a 2 second period. negligible =/= zero. Do you have any reason to believe that it should not have been negligible for that 2 second period?

And don't give me a vague answer like "because it was steel and concrete". I know there was steel and concrete. Steel beams that have already buckled generally don't offer up much vertical resistance. Concrete around a steel beam is not going to offer up any vertical resistance if it is broken and no longer standing up straight.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2443 on: March 18, 2017, 07:48:44 PM »
I can't give you an official government source saying 9/11 was an inside job, sorry, I've provided citations on concrete and steel strength under heat.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2444 on: March 18, 2017, 07:55:40 PM »
I also know that 15 percent of a top of a structure cannot pulverize 85 percent of the bottom part. Especially the lower 44....The physics don't work. I also know what I saw on 7, it had every sign of a CD.

Actually you are dead wrong about that,  the physics work just fine.    I linked earlier to a paper by Greening showing that there was more than enough energy and momentum to collapse. I could find it again if you want to argue the physics,   

I can speak from models, from experience, from education, and from common sense...What we saw is in no way possible the way we are supposed to believe. 1 and 2 is a no...7 is a resounding no.[/b]
Argument from authority, without evidence.

Edit..Totes..What do you think a demo is 100 percent symmetrical? Come on... A precent or two lean here or there as it falls is acceptable.

It's dispute that keeps claiming that symmetrical collapse is an indication of demolition.   No one else even thinks it was symmetrical let alone a demolition that made no sense on any level.


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2445 on: March 18, 2017, 07:57:36 PM »
Edit..Totes..What do you think a demo is 100 percent symmetrical? Come on... A precent or two lean here or there as it falls is acceptable.

Of course not. But disputeone keeps touting the symmetry as evidence that it was a demo, and the videos he was using as evidence of symmetry were making it look more symmetric than it actually was due to the angle.

The symmetry (and slight lack thereof) is consistent with BOTH a controlled demo and the NIST's report.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2446 on: March 18, 2017, 08:00:03 PM »
...I've provided citations on concrete and steel strength under heat.

Compression strength is no longer relevant after a beam has buckled.

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Rayzor

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2447 on: March 18, 2017, 08:01:36 PM »
This video was slowed down anyways, I don't trust it to begin with. Second, no way that is the core, an absolute impossibility.

This would be with controlled demo or the NIST fairy tale.

The way 1,2 and 7 was designed you MUST comprise the core, that is 100 percent mandatory if you don't want it to get ugly. This is with the pancake magic, or with reality.

1. You claimed that the video was slowed down before,  and then didn't offer any evidence to prove your claim.  Now's your chance,  prove it. 
2.  If you don't think that's part of the core left standing,  what do you think it is?   
3.  So, you are saying if that actually is part of the core then there's no way it could be controlled demolition?    Please be clear with your answer.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2448 on: March 18, 2017, 08:02:34 PM »
...I've provided citations on concrete and steel strength under heat.

Compression strength is no longer relevant after a beam has buckled.

The beam has to be 100% destroyed, not bucked for symmetrical free-fall. Once again, I am sorry.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2449 on: March 18, 2017, 08:17:01 PM »
What?? For starters, multiple core supports, we just refer to it as the core for simplicity.

That is what I assumed, but based on disputeone's replies, I got the impression that he thought there was only one large concrete core. Hence, the question.

Quote
Deformation of the window frame? This would cause breaking glass, not exploding glass. Plus in a nice pretty line on both sides and in the center...Only there...On 100 percent mandatory positions for a demo...Exploding...Not in the upper or lower 10...Just like a demo...Not to mention DURING it's free fall...Just like a demo.

The more you repeat this, the less I trust anything you say. " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Source video:

1. I see no evidence of explosions. Smoke comes out of the windows, but that's because the building is full of smoke from 7 hours of fire. Also, windows can shatter under deformation. They are brittle.
2. There are no nice pretty lines. There are a few clumps, in a roughly vertical configuration.
3. Well over half the squibs in this video are in the upper 10 floors. The lower 10 aren't visible in any video I have seen.

Quote
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, smells like a duck, feels like a duck....It's not an elephant.

Stop lying about what this "duck" walks like, looks like, smells like, and feels like.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2450 on: March 18, 2017, 08:23:18 PM »
...I've provided citations on concrete and steel strength under heat.

Compression strength is no longer relevant after a beam has buckled.

The beam has to be 100% destroyed, not bucked for symmetrical free-fall. Once again, I am sorry.

Crack a concrete column, tilt it by 20 degrees, and see how much weight it can support. Depending on its width/height, it will probably just fall over on its own.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2451 on: March 18, 2017, 08:25:36 PM »
1. I see no evidence of explosions.

"la-la-la I'm not listening la-la-la"

Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2452 on: March 18, 2017, 08:28:10 PM »
1. I see no evidence of explosions.

"la-la-la I'm not listening la-la-la"



Please stay on topic. I was referring to the squibs from building 7. Most of what Bhs claimed about the squibs from building 7 was blatantly false. Do you disagree?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 08:29:52 PM by TotesReptilian »

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2453 on: March 18, 2017, 08:28:28 PM »
Crack a concrete column, tilt it by 20 degrees, and see how much weight it can support. Depending on its width/height, it will probably just fall over on its own.

Yes, fall over.

Not directly down through itself.

Gawd.

Edit. Thanks for trying to debate honestly, you are really highlighting the absurdity of the OS.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2454 on: March 18, 2017, 08:33:14 PM »
1. I see no evidence of explosions.

"la-la-la I'm not listening la-la-la"



Please stay on topic. I was referring to the squibs from building 7. Most of what Bhs claimed about the squibs from building 7 was blatantly false. Do you disagree?

The fact all the windows didn't break, only the windows / locations where we would expect in a CD, is irrefutable proof for a CD.

In a natural total collapse every window would be shattered as it fell, buckled and twisted.

Thanks again.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2455 on: March 18, 2017, 08:37:58 PM »
Crack a concrete column, tilt it by 20 degrees, and see how much weight it can support. Depending on its width/height, it will probably just fall over on its own.

Yes, fall over.

Not directly down through itself.

Gawd.

Edit. Thanks for trying to debate honestly, you are really highlighting the absurdity of the OS.

Don't be dense. It's a tall building.


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disputeone

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2456 on: March 18, 2017, 08:38:59 PM »



Please show visual evidence that this ever occurred.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2457 on: March 18, 2017, 08:48:55 PM »



Please show visual evidence that this ever occurred.

A) Stop moving the goalposts. Your argument is that the NIST version of events is implausible, not that there is no video evidence of it happening exactly as it was simulated.
B) No videos of the collapse show the building this low.

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TotesReptilian

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2458 on: March 18, 2017, 08:58:50 PM »
That's enough of this argument for me for now. Responding to all these incoherent arguments and baseless assertions is tiring.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: 911 What is the truth?
« Reply #2459 on: March 18, 2017, 09:00:36 PM »
Crack a concrete column, tilt it by 20 degrees, and see how much weight it can support. Depending on its width/height, it will probably just fall over on its own.

Yes, fall over.

Not directly down through itself.

Gawd.

Edit. Thanks for trying to debate honestly, you are really highlighting the absurdity of the OS.

Don't be dense. It's a tall building.



I won't even address this, we have no idea the inputs and we never will....Could have fallen under rainbow power for all we know.

I will leave the squibs alone, I don't care, don't need them.

In this building design you must remove the core to simulate what we saw. That is a simple fact. A building is not going to fall in the path of greatest resistance, simple fact.

Also...Lol...A steel beam encased in concrete, if you bend it 20 degrees it is gonna just snap and break??

Lol.. you are silly.
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