Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat

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Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« on: January 29, 2017, 11:17:33 AM »
If the earth were a ball spinning on an axis while orbiting the sun and you took a time elapsed photo of the night sky at the North or South Pole the photo would show the familiar pinwheel of lights in the picture. However, if you took the same photo anywhere else on the planet wouldn’t the familiar pinwheel of lights change to streaks going across the night sky because you are no longer on the axis? Yet all time elapsed photos taken any where on earth show the perfect pinwheel of lights spinning overhead.
The only way to achieve a perfect pinwheel of lights no matter where you are located is if the earth were flat because there is no deflection caused by the curvature of the earth.
Pain is a wonderful teacher . . . we just don't always know the lesson.

I came into this world screaming, fighting and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2017, 11:38:41 AM »
If the earth were a ball spinning on an axis while orbiting the sun and you took a time elapsed photo of the night sky at the North or South Pole the photo would show the familiar pinwheel of lights in the picture. However, if you took the same photo anywhere else on the planet wouldn’t the familiar pinwheel of lights change to streaks going across the night sky because you are no longer on the axis? Yet all time elapsed photos taken any where on earth show the perfect pinwheel of lights spinning overhead.
The only way to achieve a perfect pinwheel of lights no matter where you are located is if the earth were flat because there is no deflection caused by the curvature of the earth.

I don't follow your reasoning.

Obviously the centre of the pinwheel will only be directly overhead at the poles. But I don't see why it shouldn't still be visible at other latitudes on a globe.

Maybe a diagram would help?

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2017, 11:51:53 AM »
If you are not directly on the axis of the spinning ball the farther away from the axis you get the perfect spinning path of the stars above would become elliptic. Anything over 10 degrees from the axis looking straight up would record an arched path because the axis would be beyond the horizon. At 30 + degrees looking straight up would record the stars horizontal path because of the curvature of the earth.

If you lay in the center of a merry go round looking straight up you see everything spinning around in a circle above you. However if you sit on the edge of the merry go round and look straight out you will only be able to see the surroundings of the merry go round. this is because you are no longer an the axis.

Taking a time elapsed photo anywhere on earth you will record a pinwheel of lights rotating around a fixed point above your location. This is impossible if the earth is round.
Pain is a wonderful teacher . . . we just don't always know the lesson.

I came into this world screaming, fighting and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2017, 12:04:34 PM »
If you are not directly on the axis of the spinning ball the farther away from the axis you get the perfect spinning path of the stars above would become elliptic. Anything over 10 degrees from the axis looking straight up would record an arched path because the axis would be beyond the horizon. At 30 + degrees looking straight up would record the stars horizontal path because of the curvature of the earth.

If you lay in the center of a merry go round looking straight up you see everything spinning around in a circle above you. However if you sit on the edge of the merry go round and look straight out you will only be able to see the surroundings of the merry go round. this is because you are no longer an the axis.

But if you sit on the edge of the merry go round and look straight up instead of straight out then you will see everything moving in a circle.

Have a think about the geometry. Remember that the stars are a long way away. This may help:

« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 12:06:16 PM by Copper Knickers »

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2017, 12:37:48 PM »

In order to sit at the periphery/ equator of a spinning globe and observe the night sky spinning as a pinwheel your camera's point of view would be parallel with the surface of the earth pointing either north or south.

As I am not adept at adding graphics here is another analogy. When filming a race on a circle track from above using the camera as the axis point the racers can be observed going around the track in a circle. However when the camera's point of view is moved to the edge or periphery /equator level with the race track, the racers are now observed moving straight across the field of view with no evidence of the circle track.

Viewing your graphics we see the circular pinwheel from the north and south poles/ axis. However, the depiction of what would be seen at the periphery / equator would be straight lines across the screen. But your graphic does show the expected arched lines that would be visible somewhere between 10 and 30 degrees on a sphere.

The distance of the stars have no impact upon what is observable from a fixed position on a sphere. Because as the sphere spins on it's axis, those on the periphery / equator looking straight up from their respective position would view the stars directly above them as if on the merry go round facing out. 
Pain is a wonderful teacher . . . we just don't always know the lesson.

I came into this world screaming, fighting and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.

*

onebigmonkey

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Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 12:41:56 PM »
You get the pinwheel effect by pointing your camera at the pole stars in the respective hemispheres - the stars that are fixed in position in the night sky relative to the others.
Facts won't do what I want them to.

We went from a round Earth to a round Moon: http://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/apollo.html

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 12:49:31 PM »

In order to sit at the periphery/ equator of a spinning globe and observe the night sky spinning as a pinwheel your camera's point of view would be parallel with the surface of the earth pointing either north or south.

As I am not adept at adding graphics here is another analogy. When filming a race on a circle track from above using the camera as the axis point the racers can be observed going around the track in a circle. However when the camera's point of view is moved to the edge or periphery /equator level with the race track, the racers are now observed moving straight across the field of view with no evidence of the circle track.

Viewing your graphics we see the circular pinwheel from the north and south poles/ axis. However, the depiction of what would be seen at the periphery / equator would be straight lines across the screen. But your graphic does show the expected arched lines that would be visible somewhere between 10 and 30 degrees on a sphere.

The distance of the stars have no impact upon what is observable from a fixed position on a sphere. Because as the sphere spins on it's axis, those on the periphery / equator looking straight up from their respective position would view the stars directly above them as if on the merry go round facing out.
You can test this yourself.  Take a small camera, maybe your phone, attach it to a sphere that can spin.  Put some lights around the room and then do a long exposure photo while the sphere spins.

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JackBlack

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Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 12:54:03 PM »
If the earth were a ball spinning on an axis while orbiting the sun and you took a time elapsed photo of the night sky at the North or South Pole the photo would show the familiar pinwheel of lights in the picture. However, if you took the same photo anywhere else on the planet wouldn’t the familiar pinwheel of lights change to streaks going across the night sky because you are no longer on the axis? Yet all time elapsed photos taken any where on earth show the perfect pinwheel of lights spinning overhead.
The only way to achieve a perfect pinwheel of lights no matter where you are located is if the earth were flat because there is no deflection caused by the curvature of the earth.

No. They don't. Only over the north and south pole do you have a pinwheel of lights directly overhead.
Ones away from that instead show the pinwheel at an angle. The centre is located at an angle of elevation dependent on your latitude.

You being off axis is not an issue due to the great distances involved.

The nearest star is Proxima Centuri, aka Alpha Centuri C. It is located 4.2 light years away. That is roughly 40 trillion km. (Polaris, the current pole star for the north, is located ~400 light years away)
The radius of Earth is only 6400 km (exaggerated slightly).
So, the offset from the simple expected angle, which for the north pole is an angle of elevation=latitude, so at 90 degrees north, it is directly overhead, at the equator it is on the horizon almost, is going to be a tiny ~one 100 000 000th of a degree, or 9E-9 degrees. That is not noticeable.

Just to give you an idea, you can convert these distances to something else, by simple scaling.
So we have 6400 km:40 000 000 000 000 km.
This is equivalent to 6.4 um :40 km

Noticing this offset would be equivalent to noticing something that is 6.4 microns wide (smaller than the width of a hair) at 40 km.

Do you think you would be able to notice that?

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JackBlack

  • 22202
Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 01:03:12 PM »
If the earth were a ball spinning on an axis while orbiting the sun and you took a time elapsed photo of the night sky at the North or South Pole the photo would show the familiar pinwheel of lights in the picture. However, if you took the same photo anywhere else on the planet wouldn’t the familiar pinwheel of lights change to streaks going across the night sky because you are no longer on the axis? Yet all time elapsed photos taken any where on earth show the perfect pinwheel of lights spinning overhead.
The only way to achieve a perfect pinwheel of lights no matter where you are located is if the earth were flat because there is no deflection caused by the curvature of the earth.

Part 2:
This is actually much worse for most flat Earth models (in fact, it is impossible for a flat Earth model).

On a flat Earth model, the stars all revolve around the north pole, either on a dome or just a certain height about Earth.

This gives the wrong formula for locating the centre (Polaris).
The observed formula is an angle of elevation equal to your latitude (measured with north being positive).
This means it is impossible to observe for basically all the southern hemisphere, which matches reality.
For a flat Earth, instead the angle should be arctan(h/r).
This matches for the north pole, and one other location, which you can use to determine h. At every other location, it is wrong.
For example, if you use 45 degrees north, then r is 5 000 km, putting Polaris at a height of 5 000 km.
This indicates it should still be easily visible at the Antarctic ice wall, with a r=20 000 km, then Polaris should have an angle of elevation of 14 degrees.
At the equator it is observed very close to the horizon at ~ 0 degrees. But the formula predicts 27 degrees.

But there are even bigger problems for you.
The star trails observed are circling 2 points (one due north, one due south). One in the north, one in the south, and passing directly overhead going east-west over the equator in a straight line.

All of this matches a round Earth.
On a flat Earth, they should all circle around one point, the north pole.
Even in the southern hemisphere, they would circle around the north pole, not the south.
At the equator, they should go above in an arc, starting NE, going directly overhead, then ending NW.

But here, due to how close the stars are (estimated at the 3000 miles given for the sun), there would be a massive offset for the circles.
Yes, part of this would just be the centre appearing at a different angle. But a more important part would be that it would appear as an ellipse not a circle, because you are viewing it from an angle, not directly below.

So star trails don't prove Earth is flat. Instead they prove it can't be flat.

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 01:12:09 PM »
In order to sit at the periphery/ equator of a spinning globe and observe the night sky spinning as a pinwheel your camera's point of view would be parallel with the surface of the earth pointing either north or south.

That's correct. As in the photos top-left and top-right of the graphic I posted. The centre of the pinwheel is on the horizon.

As I am not adept at adding graphics here is another analogy. When filming a race on a circle track from above using the camera as the axis point the racers can be observed going around the track in a circle. However when the camera's point of view is moved to the edge or periphery /equator level with the race track, the racers are now observed moving straight across the field of view with no evidence of the circle track.

Viewing your graphics we see the circular pinwheel from the north and south poles/ axis. However, the depiction of what would be seen at the periphery / equator would be straight lines across the screen.

Yes, as in the photo top-centre of the graphic. That is looking outward from the equator (rather than north or south).

But your graphic does show the expected arched lines that would be visible somewhere between 10 and 30 degrees on a sphere.

The photos with the arches are taken from the equator, looking north and south. As you move away from the equator the centre of the pinwheel moves higher in the sky until at at the pole it is directly overhead. This is exactly as would be expected on a globe earth.

The distance of the stars have no impact upon what is observable from a fixed position on a sphere. Because as the sphere spins on it's axis, those on the periphery / equator looking straight up from their respective position would view the stars directly above them as if on the merry go round facing out.

You seem to be thinking in terms of the field of vision being quite limited - i.e. only 'straight up'. But at any point on earth you can see a whole hemisphere of stars - that is, you can see half of the stars there are to be seen. That hemisphere will always contain at least one of the celestial poles (the 'pinwheel' centres).

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 01:14:45 PM »
Nicely explained thank you.
Pain is a wonderful teacher . . . we just don't always know the lesson.

I came into this world screaming, fighting and covered in someone else's blood. I have no problem going out the same way.

*

JackBlack

  • 22202
Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 01:18:25 PM »
In order to sit at the periphery/ equator of a spinning globe and observe the night sky spinning as a pinwheel your camera's point of view would be parallel with the surface of the earth pointing either north or south.
That's right. And that is exactly what is observed.
If Earth was flat, that point would be roughly 26 degrees above parallel.

As I am not adept at adding graphics here is another analogy. When filming a race on a circle track from above using the camera as the axis point the racers can be observed going around the track in a circle. However when the camera's point of view is moved to the edge or periphery /equator level with the race track, the racers are now observed moving straight across the field of view with no evidence of the circle track.
The issue here is the scale.
You have the distance from the racers vertically being effectively 0, while the distance to the axis is massive.
In reality, with the stars, it is the exact opposite, with the distance off axis being effectively 0, while the distance to the racers vertically being massive.

Viewing your graphics we see the circular pinwheel from the north and south poles/ axis. However, the depiction of what would be seen at the periphery / equator would be straight lines across the screen. But your graphic does show the expected arched lines that would be visible somewhere between 10 and 30 degrees on a sphere.
Only for those directly above.
At the equator, stars pass from due east to due west directly overhead, and circle around the 2 poles elsewhere.
So if you look due north or south you see them circling around a point near the horizon.
If you look due east or west, you see some going in a straight line from or to due east or west, while the others go in arcs.

The distance of the stars have no impact upon what is observable from a fixed position on a sphere. Because as the sphere spins on it's axis, those on the periphery / equator looking straight up from their respective position would view the stars directly above them as if on the merry go round facing out.
And that is what is observed.

Would you like me to do some simulations in POV-ray to show you what it looks like?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 01:21:17 PM by JackBlack »

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 01:53:24 PM »
If the earth were a ball spinning on an axis while orbiting the sun and you took a time elapsed photo of the night sky at the North or South Pole the photo would show the familiar pinwheel of lights in the picture. However, if you took the same photo anywhere else on the planet wouldn’t the familiar pinwheel of lights change to streaks going across the night sky because you are no longer on the axis? Yet all time elapsed photos taken any where on earth show the perfect pinwheel of lights spinning overhead.
The only way to achieve a perfect pinwheel of lights no matter where you are located is if the earth were flat because there is no deflection caused by the curvature of the earth.



The closer you are to the equator, the more vertical and parallel the star trails will appear as you aim the camera due east or west.

I'd suggest that you verify this with your own photography.  (Or you can see plenty of images by googling "star trails" and "equator")

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 05:58:53 PM »
Nicely explained thank you.

It gives me hope that there are people who do listen, and do want to know the truth, and aren't just blindly indoctrinated into this belief. Thank you. If you have any questions about the earth, moon, and NASA, I would be more than happy to answer them :D
"By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox" ~ Galileo Galilei

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 07:25:28 PM »
Seems to me that the proof is not so incontrovertible.  Pointing the camera anywhere but at the poles for a time lapse is uncommon because the results are not so picturesque but we had an example and they prove the opposite.

Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 06:58:58 AM »
Nicely explained thank you.

It gives me hope that there are people who do listen, and do want to know the truth, and aren't just blindly indoctrinated into this belief. Thank you. If you have any questions about the earth, moon, and NASA, I would be more than happy to answer them :D
Ok, I have a question.  How do you explain sunrise and sunset and the fact that the sun stays the same size in the sky all day?

*

JackBlack

  • 22202
Re: Incontrovertible proof the earth is flat
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 12:03:13 PM »
Ok, I have a question.  How do you explain sunrise and sunset and the fact that the sun stays the same size in the sky all day?
its ~ 150 million km away (IIRC) so the ~6400 km between sunrise and midday is basically nothing. It appears to rise and set because Earth is turning.

If you notice he was happy that the person accepted that the proof provided was wrong, not that someone thought Earth was flat.