UA vs Denpressure

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:28:17 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 01:11:05 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:05:15 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 12:37:34 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 12:14:15 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 11:52:39 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 07, 2017, 08:43:40 PM

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on February 07, 2017, 05:59:30 PM

I think his theory depends on more than just the pressure of atmospheric molecules. I think it is the compression of all matter.

Also need to quit trying to add heliocentric gravity to the denspressure model.

What causes the compression?    Therein lies the contradiction at the center of the denspressure model.

Stacking.

Stacking can't exert a force without weight.    Without gravity everything is weightless.

Weight is a man made measurement of atmospheric pressure upon density of mass which reads a scale measurement by the push against resistance.

No such thing as gravity and everything to do with denpressure.

What's the definition of density in your world?

Any mass,
Density is only really required to set a man made weight measurement of a mass by the amount of atmospheric pressure that mass can displace.

So,  a more dense object can displace more pressure?   Doesn't volume come into the calculation of density?

Describe volume and then describe mass, then let's see where we go.

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Mass is the amount of matter, so what exactly is volume?
It might seem like I'm playing you but if you're a serious person you'll answer it until I get to my point.

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Mass is the amount of matter, so what exactly is volume?
It might seem like I'm playing you but if you're a serious person you'll answer it until I get to my point.

Yep,  you are definately taking the mickey,  but I'll play.

Go get your tape measure or ruler,  let's say you measure a container of water that's 10 cm  by 10 cm by 10 cm  thats a volume of 10x10x10 = 1000 cubic centrimeters,  or 1 liter,   which by international agreement has a mass of  1 kilogram,   and a density of  1 kg per liter   

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Mass is the amount of matter, so what exactly is volume?
It might seem like I'm playing you but if you're a serious person you'll answer it until I get to my point.

Sup scepti. I honestly want to know where this is going.

Just to get past the obvious.

Volume.
the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container.

"the sewer could not cope with the volume of rainwater"

synonyms:   capacity, cubic measure, size, magnitude, largeness, bigness, mass, bulk, extent, extensiveness

Are you getting at Volume being the "empty" space in an object? The first thing I think of when I think about the volume of something is the amount of  space in it like the amount of water a pool can hold or the amount of air a house can hold under atmospheric pressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 02:12:25 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Mass is the amount of matter, so what exactly is volume?
It might seem like I'm playing you but if you're a serious person you'll answer it until I get to my point.

Yep,  you are definately taking the mickey,  but I'll play.

Go get your tape measure or ruler,  let's say you measure a container of water that's 10 cm  by 10 cm by 10 cm  thats a volume of 10x10x10 = 1000 cubic centrimeters,  or 1 liter,   which by international agreement has a mass of  1 kilogram,   and a density of  1 kg per liter

So what exactly is the volume?


We know what mass is. It's what makes up an object of whatever proportions, large or tiny.

So what exactly is volume. What does volume actually represent?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 02:12:25 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 01:54:41 AM

Get out your tape measure and measure Length, Width and Height,   Multiply those together gives you Volume.   Mass is the amount of matter.   Density is the amount of Mass in a unit volume.  None of this requires Gravity.   Density does not depend on gravity.    But if you want that mass to exert a force,  then you need Weight,  which can only come from Gravity or Acceleration.

Mass is the amount of matter, so what exactly is volume?
It might seem like I'm playing you but if you're a serious person you'll answer it until I get to my point.

Sup scepti. I honestly want to know where this is going.

Just to get past the obvious.

Quote

Volume.
the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container.

"the sewer could not cope with the volume of rainwater"

synonyms:   capacity, cubic measure, size, magnitude, largeness, bigness, mass, bulk, extent, extensiveness

Are you getting at Volume being the "empty" space in an object? The first thing I think of when I think about the volume of something is the amount of  space in it like the amount of water a pool can hold or the amount of air a house can hold under atmospheric pressure.

Ok, now we are talking.
Basically in a true sense, a volume is the actual empty space taken up within an object.
So basically we can literally forget it where denpressure is concerned, because denpressure acts only on the density of a mass.
the volume can be discarded in this thought process because the volume is simply already part of the atmosphere.
In denpressure we need to know how much density is repelling/displacing the actual atmosphere and we measure this with man made scales that give a weight measurement of that displacement of atmosphere.

Not gravity.

You can't have density without volume. So you can't "discard volume" for this thought process whilst retaining density, as density by definition = mass/volume.

If you want to create a new model for reality you need to come up with your own terms instead of using ones which are, by definition, not consistent with your usage of them. I am following these discussions with interest but your misuse of terms like volume is incredibly confusing.

because volume = length x length x length. It's 3 dimensional space. Whether it has mass in it or not is irrelevant, it's still volume. If it contains mass, then it also has a density, depending on how much mass there is in the volume.

You can't have density without volume. So you can't "discard volume" for this thought process whilst retaining density, as density by definition = mass/volume.

If you want to create a new model for reality you need to come up with your own terms instead of using ones which are, by definition, not consistent with your usage of them. I am following these discussions with interest but your misuse of terms like volume is incredibly confusing.

We do not require it for denpressure explanations.
Of course we can use it in life. We can say " oh your hair is flat, why don't you give it some volume."
What exactly are you giving that hair in reality?

because volume = length x length x length. It's 3 dimensional space. Whether it has mass in it or not is irrelevant, it's still volume. If it contains mass, then it also has a density, depending on how much mass there is in the volume.

Of course but in the context of denpressure, it does not need to be used because it is part of the pressure system, meaning it is under equilibrium.
This is why the density of the mass against the atmospheric pressure is used to get an accurate man made measurement of weight, which equates to being a man made measurement of density of any object displacing the atmosphere.

How do you calculate density without using volume?

How do you calculate density without using volume?

Man made scales.

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 06:26:58 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on February 07, 2017, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 09:52:06 AM

The downward force is any dense object PUSHING  into the atmosphere which crushes back down because the ground in which the object is on acts like a leverage which does not allow atmosphere to squeeze up.

Finally!!!!

I finally get what you are saying causes down!

Actually wouldn't the leverage work the other way?  And this doesn't explain why objects no where near the ground fall down.

There's really no falling down unless something is pushed up. It takes enough energy to overcome the dense objects push against the atmosphere it displaces.

Ok so I take this balloon filled with air.  I move it several feet laterally.  I wait several minutes for the air pressure of the room to even out, so to speak.  I release it.  The balloon will fall even though the pressure above it is the same, very slightly less than that below it. Why does it fall down?

The balloon itself is the key. That's the density holding in the compressed air.
The amount it holds is greater than the resistance below it, so it's pushed down or squeezed down, depending on how you want to picture it.

But the density below it is greater than the density above it.  Why isn't it pushed up?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 05:43:29 AM

How do you calculate density without using volume?

Man made scales.

Can you give an example?  If I put a block of metal on some scales, how will it tell me the density?  What units are you using for density?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 11:48:08 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 06:26:58 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on February 07, 2017, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 09:52:06 AM

The downward force is any dense object PUSHING  into the atmosphere which crushes back down because the ground in which the object is on acts like a leverage which does not allow atmosphere to squeeze up.

Finally!!!!

I finally get what you are saying causes down!

Actually wouldn't the leverage work the other way?  And this doesn't explain why objects no where near the ground fall down.

There's really no falling down unless something is pushed up. It takes enough energy to overcome the dense objects push against the atmosphere it displaces.

Ok so I take this balloon filled with air.  I move it several feet laterally.  I wait several minutes for the air pressure of the room to even out, so to speak.  I release it.  The balloon will fall even though the pressure above it is the same, very slightly less than that below it. Why does it fall down?

The balloon itself is the key. That's the density holding in the compressed air.
The amount it holds is greater than the resistance below it, so it's pushed down or squeezed down, depending on how you want to picture it.

But the density below it is greater than the density above it.  Why isn't it pushed up?

It's best if you actually start paying attention.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 05:43:29 AM

How do you calculate density without using volume?

Man made scales.

Can you give an example?  If I put a block of metal on some scales, how will it tell me the density?  What units are you using for density?

We can be talking grams and ounces or what was originally pounds and stones, to kilos to tonnes. You know, stuff like that.

Grams and kilograms are units of mass. Ounces and pounds are units of weight.

Grams and kilograms are units of mass. Ounces and pounds are units of weight.

However you want to view them as. None of them are gravity and none of them require it in any measurement of any dense object displacing atmosphere.

Nice dodging there..
Anyway, how do you know the scales are giving you an accurate answer? How do you know for certain that what you are weighing is in fact the correct weight?
Also, say you have 3 different cubes, one of steel, one silver, and the other gold, could I accurately predict their weight if I knew the mass and the volume, but not the density? Do you think this is possible?

Nice dodging there..
Anyway, how do you know the scales are giving you an accurate answer? How do you know for certain that what you are weighing is in fact the correct weight?
Also, say you have 3 different cubes, one of steel, one silver, and the other gold, could I accurately predict their weight if I knew the mass and the volume, but not the density? Do you think this is possible?

You cannot predict the weight unless you have man made scales to verify your prediction.
Pretty obvious really.

But how do you know the scale is accurate? If you reply "because it's calibrated", you'll have to explain it, not just say it.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 07:01:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 05:43:29 AM

How do you calculate density without using volume?

Man made scales.

Can you give an example?  If I put a block of metal on some scales, how will it tell me the density?  What units are you using for density?

We can be talking grams and ounces or what was originally pounds and stones, to kilos to tonnes.

So a kilo of lead is the same density as a kilo of balsa wood?

The story so far,   sceptimatic is taking the mickey,  big time,  but we all agreed to play,  so let's recap.

Mass is now defined as something that can only be measured on man-made scales. 

Density is something other than mass/unit_volume,  it might even be renamed as mass, but we still haven't decided what.

Volume is not  measured in liters,  or LxWxH  but something else entirely,   another undefined variable.

Scepti doesn't know the difference between 1 kg mass and 1kg weight.   

Now,  ... drumroll ...  let the games contine.

Scepti doesn't know the difference between 1 kg mass and 1kg weight.   

That's just not the case Rayzor and I think you know it.

In scepti's model weight is determined by the amount of atmoplane the object displaces, In our model weight is caused by gravity.

Do you get a kick out of calling people stupid because it certainly seems like you do.

Quote from: Rayzor on February 08, 2017, 05:50:57 PM

Scepti doesn't know the difference between 1 kg mass and 1kg weight.   

That's just not the case Rayzor and I think you know it.

In scepti's model weight is determined by the amount of atmoplane the object displaces, In our model weight is caused by gravity.

Do you get a kick out of calling people stupid because it certainly seems like you do.

Scepti's model doesn't describe the real world,  that's been proven many times,   but that's actually not the issue,   the issue is what causes the direction in stacking.   What determines up and down?

And,  I'm not kidding scepti doesn't actually know the difference between mass and weight,  he doesn't believe in gravity.

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 08, 2017, 06:39:44 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 11:48:08 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 06:26:58 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 01:42:46 PM

Quote from: Badxtoss on February 07, 2017, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Babyhighspeed on February 07, 2017, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2017, 09:52:06 AM

The downward force is any dense object PUSHING  into the atmosphere which crushes back down because the ground in which the object is on acts like a leverage which does not allow atmosphere to squeeze up.

Finally!!!!

I finally get what you are saying causes down!

Actually wouldn't the leverage work the other way?  And this doesn't explain why objects no where near the ground fall down.

There's really no falling down unless something is pushed up. It takes enough energy to overcome the dense objects push against the atmosphere it displaces.

Ok so I take this balloon filled with air.  I move it several feet laterally.  I wait several minutes for the air pressure of the room to even out, so to speak.  I release it.  The balloon will fall even though the pressure above it is the same, very slightly less than that below it. Why does it fall down?

The balloon itself is the key. That's the density holding in the compressed air.
The amount it holds is greater than the resistance below it, so it's pushed down or squeezed down, depending on how you want to picture it.

But the density below it is greater than the density above it.  Why isn't it pushed up?

It's best if you actually start paying attention.

I have been.  Pretty much everyone has asked this same question. If so many people are missing it maybe the problem is in the explanation.

But how do you know the scale is accurate? If you reply "because it's calibrated", you'll have to explain it, not just say it.

Scales are likely never really accurate. But for the sake of arguing the toss, we simply assume they are in terms of how we choose to measure the matter that makes up an object in  mass and density that displaces the atmosphere and uses a scale plate as a leverage to that displacement, giving us a man made reading that we generally take as accurate enough to be getting on with.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 08:57:14 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 07:01:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 08, 2017, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 08, 2017, 05:43:29 AM

How do you calculate density without using volume?

Man made scales.

Can you give an example?  If I put a block of metal on some scales, how will it tell me the density?  What units are you using for density?

We can be talking grams and ounces or what was originally pounds and stones, to kilos to tonnes.

So a kilo of lead is the same density as a kilo of balsa wood?

How do you know you have a kilo of lead and a kilo of balsa wood?

The story so far,   sceptimatic is taking the mickey,  big time,  but we all agreed to play,  so let's recap.
 

Everything is a game to people like you if it goes against your programmed mind. You are trained to think like this by force of pressure. Not denpressure, just peer pressure, because you are a weakling that tries to push a strong internet persona.
Weakling.

Mass is now defined as something that can only be measured on man-made scales. 

If you can think of another way to measure a reading for that mass that we can log down, then tell me.

Density is something other than mass/unit_volume,  it might even be renamed as mass, but we still haven't decided what.

what is mass and what is volume?

Volume is not  measured in liters,  or LxWxH  but something else entirely,   another undefined variable.

What is mass and what is volume?

Scepti doesn't know the difference between 1 kg mass and 1kg weight.   

You don't know what 1kg of mass is unless you have the ability to use a man made scale to measure it.
So what makes a 1kg of mass and what is volume when describing that mass, as well as describing what the mass itself is in this 1kg block that you cannot measure as 1kg unless you have a man made scale to measure what it displaces of atmosphere.

Now,  ... drumroll ...  let the games contine.

Yes, let your games continue.
Now start explaining. You can do it on an internet pedestal in front of your supposed forum friends in name only and shout, " look at me trying to ridicule scepti by attempting to destroy his thoughts on his model."

Or you can try and answer the questions as rationally as I've asked them.
Take it away Rayzor Geoff.

Scepti's model doesn't describe the real world,  that's been proven many times,   but that's actually not the issue,   the issue is what causes the direction in stacking.
  What determines up and down?

You'/ve been told many times but you refuse to grasp it because to grasp it kills off gravity and that scares you.

And,  I'm not kidding scepti doesn't actually know the difference between mass and weight,  he doesn't believe in gravity.

What is mass and what is weight?
Weight only comes about as a name for a man made scale measurement of the density of a mass. Or basically what the density of that mass cab displace of atmosphere it is placed in and set against the leverage of a man made resistance plate or hook, that gives a reading of that atmospheric displacement.

It doesn't give any reading of a supposed fictional gravity force pulling the mass to the centre of Earth.

Unicorns are fine. I can picture a unicorn right now. I can see one running. A horse or goat like creature with a horn on it's head, right?
I wonder how that got into my head?....Ahhhh, it's ok, it was a story from school. It sort of sticks and I'm sure we were told it was fictional.
You don't think they could have told us some stories that were fictional and sold them to us as truth's, do you?

I'm trying to picture gravity and how it can work.

Nope, it just doesn't make sense.
In fact, weirdly I have more belief in the unicorn picture if nothing else about it.