UA vs Denpressure

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #330 on: February 10, 2017, 12:44:33 PM »
I'm really not trying to shift anything, and it's difficult to keep track of which game we're playing at any time.  You said you can measure density by placing an object on some scales and the unit of measurement is grams, kilos etc.  Right?  It's in the quotes.

So again, if I placed some balsa wood on the scales and it measured at 2kg and measured some lead at 1kg, this would mean the balsa wood had the greater density?

If this isn't correct, then tell me how you would measure the density of a substance and what units you would use?
You started off saying you has 1kg of lead and 1kg of balsa wood...but fair enough, let's go with this change.

Yes the 2kg of balsa wood would have more density than the 1kg of lead.

If you think it doesn't then tell me why.
And the definition of density is?

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #331 on: February 10, 2017, 12:55:39 PM »
density


/ˈdɛnsɪtɪ/   





noun (pl) -ties 

1. the degree to which something is filled, crowded, or occupied: high density of building in towns 


2. obtuseness; stupidity


3. a measure of the compactness of a substance, expressed as its mass per unit volume. It is measured in kilograms per cubic metre or pounds per cubic foot ρ See also relative density


4. a measure of a physical quantity per unit of length, area, or volume See charge density, current density


5. (physics, photog) See transmission density, reflection density





Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition
William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2012
Cite This Source
The world is a sphere, but I don't hold that against it.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #332 on: February 10, 2017, 03:19:50 PM »
By now you should all know that Sceptimatic does not rely upon dictionaries to tell him the definitions of words.

He simply invents definitions himself when the defined meanings do not fit into his worldview.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #333 on: February 10, 2017, 03:51:56 PM »
I'm really not trying to shift anything, and it's difficult to keep track of which game we're playing at any time.  You said you can measure density by placing an object on some scales and the unit of measurement is grams, kilos etc.  Right?  It's in the quotes.

So again, if I placed some balsa wood on the scales and it measured at 2kg and measured some lead at 1kg, this would mean the balsa wood had the greater density?

If this isn't correct, then tell me how you would measure the density of a substance and what units you would use?
You started off saying you has 1kg of lead and 1kg of balsa wood...but fair enough, let's go with this change.

Yes the 2kg of balsa wood would have more density than the 1kg of lead.

If you think it doesn't then tell me why.
Well, you appear to be talking about mass (the amount of stuff), rather than what everyone else calls density (how compact a substance is).    A standard measure of density for the substances is:

Lead: 11340 kg/m3
Balsa (typical): 160 kg/m3

So lead is much denser - a metre cubed of lead will be much heavier than a metre cubed of balsa.  Which of course you know.

It's up to you if you want to completely redefine what words mean, but using the definition of mass for density is only going to cause complete confusion.

A language only works if everyone can pretty much agree on the meaning of words, especially with scientific ideas.  Is ther any particular reason why you want to completely re-define the meaning of density?
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disputeone

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #334 on: February 10, 2017, 06:34:35 PM »
ad hominem
ad ˈhɒmɪnɛm/
adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"
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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #335 on: February 10, 2017, 08:13:45 PM »
I'm really not trying to shift anything, and it's difficult to keep track of which game we're playing at any time.  You said you can measure density by placing an object on some scales and the unit of measurement is grams, kilos etc.  Right?  It's in the quotes.

So again, if I placed some balsa wood on the scales and it measured at 2kg and measured some lead at 1kg, this would mean the balsa wood had the greater density?

If this isn't correct, then tell me how you would measure the density of a substance and what units you would use?
You started off saying you has 1kg of lead and 1kg of balsa wood...but fair enough, let's go with this change.

Yes the 2kg of balsa wood would have more density than the 1kg of lead.

If you think it doesn't then tell me why.

No-one in the real world thinks balsa wood is more dense than lead.   That's just dense.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation of the terms you toss about, I think I'm ready to call denspressure is a failed model.   Too many inconsistencies and arbitrary changes.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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disputeone

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #336 on: February 10, 2017, 08:24:42 PM »
Quote from: Albert Einstein
If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.

http://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/3602/an-english-copy-of-one-hundred-authors-against-einstein
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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #337 on: February 10, 2017, 10:24:23 PM »

Well, you appear to be talking about mass (the amount of stuff), rather than what everyone else calls density (how compact a substance is).    A standard measure of density for the substances is:

Lead: 11340 kg/m3
Balsa (typical): 160 kg/m3

So lead is much denser - a metre cubed of lead will be much heavier than a metre cubed of balsa.  Which of course you know.


And a metre cubed of lead will be much denser than a metre cubed of balsa, but this isn't what we were discussing, was it?

We were discussing, at first, 1 kg of lead and 1 kg of balsa, right?

I said there is no difference in the density of the masses and the weight bears this out.
Now in denpressure, those 1kg weights of lead and balsa both displace exactly the same amount of atmospheric pressure, because the density in their mass is equal.

We have n o need whatsoever to deal with what isn't displacing the atmosphere, just what is, because ultimately that's what we are weighing to come to the measurement of 1kg apiece.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #338 on: February 10, 2017, 10:26:03 PM »
By now you should all know that Sceptimatic does not rely upon dictionaries to tell him the definitions of words.

He simply invents definitions himself when the defined meanings do not fit into his worldview.
Meanings are fine, it's how they are used in situations is the issue.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #339 on: February 10, 2017, 10:28:11 PM »


No-one in the real world thinks balsa wood is more dense than lead.   That's just dense.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation of the terms you toss about, I think I'm ready to call denspressure is a failed model.   Too many inconsistencies and arbitrary changes.
I don't think balsa is more dense than lead and I have never said so.
The only inconsistencies are those you decide yourself based on nothing, because you don't even kn ow how the model works.

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Rayzor

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #340 on: February 10, 2017, 10:42:08 PM »

Quote from: sceptimatic
Yes the 2kg of balsa wood would have more density than the 1kg of lead.

... wait a short while ...

Quote from: sceptimatic
I don't think balsa is more dense than lead and I have never said so.

The inconsistencies are the ones you sprout yourself,   for example what you just said about density,  confusing it with mass.  and you don't know yourself how your own model works, if you did you'd be able to explain it. 

But it's fun watching you shuffle the deck and trying to keep the game going. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 10:45:39 PM by Rayzor »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #341 on: February 10, 2017, 11:20:28 PM »

Quote from: sceptimatic
Yes the 2kg of balsa wood would have more density than the 1kg of lead.

... wait a short while ...

Quote from: sceptimatic
I don't think balsa is more dense than lead and I have never said so.

The inconsistencies are the ones you sprout yourself,   for example what you just said about density,  confusing it with mass.  and you don't know yourself how your own model works, if you did you'd be able to explain it. 

But it's fun watching you shuffle the deck and trying to keep the game going.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with what I've said but you are getting mighty confused.

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onebigmonkey

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #342 on: February 11, 2017, 12:00:33 AM »

Well, you appear to be talking about mass (the amount of stuff), rather than what everyone else calls density (how compact a substance is).    A standard measure of density for the substances is:

Lead: 11340 kg/m3
Balsa (typical): 160 kg/m3

So lead is much denser - a metre cubed of lead will be much heavier than a metre cubed of balsa.  Which of course you know.


And a metre cubed of lead will be much denser than a metre cubed of balsa, but this isn't what we were discussing, was it?

We were discussing, at first, 1 kg of lead and 1 kg of balsa, right?

I said there is no difference in the density of the masses and the weight bears this out.
Now in denpressure, those 1kg weights of lead and balsa both displace exactly the same amount of atmospheric pressure, because the density in their mass is equal.

We have n o need whatsoever to deal with what isn't displacing the atmosphere, just what is, because ultimately that's what we are weighing to come to the measurement of 1kg apiece.

If you want your model to be taken seriously, you need to get your head around basic fundamental concepts uch as mass, weight, density and volume. Your problem will come when you realise that your model falls over because of your lack of basic knowledge.

Density is a measure of mass per unit volume. 1 kg of feathers does not have the same density as 1kg of lead.

If you want to work out the density of a known mass of something, try submerging it in water and see how much it displaces, as this will give you its volume.

Schoolchildren learn this. Your unlearning of it by freeing your mind of the shackles of your indoctrination does not stop it being true.
Facts won't do what I want them to.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #343 on: February 11, 2017, 12:21:15 AM »
If you want your model to be taken seriously, you need to get your head around basic fundamental concepts uch as mass, weight, density and volume. Your problem will come when you realise that your model falls over because of your lack of basic knowledge.

Density is a measure of mass per unit volume. 1 kg of feathers does not have the same density as 1kg of lead.

If you want to work out the density of a known mass of something, try submerging it in water and see how much it displaces, as this will give you its volume.

Schoolchildren learn this. Your unlearning of it by freeing your mind of the shackles of your indoctrination does not stop it being true.
Ok let's try something.

Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #344 on: February 11, 2017, 01:02:18 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 01:30:55 AM by Copper Knickers »

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #345 on: February 11, 2017, 01:17:18 AM »
All simple basic stuff anyone should understand...

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #346 on: February 11, 2017, 01:49:51 AM »
Just like gravity, you can't physically show someone a piece of density, so like gravity density doesn't exist!

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #347 on: February 11, 2017, 01:57:56 AM »
Just like gravity, you can't physically show someone a piece of density, so like gravity density doesn't exist!
But you can measure both.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #348 on: February 11, 2017, 02:03:39 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Now I'm not trying to be funny, so here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to super miniaturise you and put you inside both 1kg block and I want you to come back out and tell me what makes one more dense than the other.

Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #349 on: February 11, 2017, 02:05:16 AM »
If people are interested to know denpressure they need to understand what's what.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #350 on: February 11, 2017, 02:23:18 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Now I'm not trying to be funny, so here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to super miniaturise you and put you inside both 1kg block and I want you to come back out and tell me what makes one more dense than the other.

Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.
Look it up yourself.  You only do this to have an argument.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #351 on: February 11, 2017, 02:40:22 AM »
All simple basic stuff anyone should understand...
He does understand it, he just likes playing games.
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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #352 on: February 11, 2017, 02:51:27 AM »
Here's the key for denpressure and we can go back to the 1kg of balsa and the 1kg of lead.

the mere fact that we know they are both 1kg is due to us having a man made scale measurement we can measure as weight.
Because of this man made scale measurement, we can now sort out the density of any material no matter what size.

If we place a small block of lead onto the scales and see a reading of 1kg, then we know what the lead weighs as out measurement.
We then put on a very large block of balsa wood and find that it weighs 1kg.

Both of the block weight the same because their own dense mass displaces the same amount of atmosphere regardless of differing sizes.
It means they both have the same density as an object of measurement.

If both objects were released of all trapped atmosphere, we would be looking at identical sized blocks.
This is denpressure.
It means it's any dense object displacing the atmosphere it is in.

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disputeone

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #353 on: February 11, 2017, 02:56:35 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Now I'm not trying to be funny, so here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to super miniaturise you and put you inside both 1kg block and I want you to come back out and tell me what makes one more dense than the other.

Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

So density is how solid the object is, if you were super miniaturised you would find that there was more empty space in the silver block and less empty space in the gold block.

Which makes perfect sense.

Silver has a mass of 10.50 grams per cm3

Gold has a mass of 19.28 grams per cm3

So the amount of empty space in an object limits the amount of atmosphere it can displace, a denser object displaces more atmosphere than a less dense object.

Therefore a kg of lead and a kg of balsa wood displace the same amount of atmosphere and thus have the same weight, they have the same density if you compare them as two objects and a different density if you compare them per cm3.
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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #354 on: February 11, 2017, 03:05:04 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Now I'm not trying to be funny, so here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to super miniaturise you and put you inside both 1kg block and I want you to come back out and tell me what makes one more dense than the other.

Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

So density is how solid the object is, if you were super miniaturised you would find that there was more empty space in the silver block and less empty space in the gold block.

Which makes perfect sense.

Silver has a mass of 10.50 grams per cm3

Gold has a mass of 19.28 grams per cm3

So the amount of empty space in an object limits the amount of atmosphere it can displace, a denser object displaces more atmosphere than a less dense object.

Therefore a kg of lead and a kg of balsa wood displace the same amount of atmosphere and thus have the same weight, they have the same density if you compare them as two objects and a different density if you compare them per cm3.
And displacement is exactly what I stick to as we all know.
So if we get down to weight. It's pretty simple in my model. Weight is simply the man made measurement of the density of a mass against atmospheric pressure that any object displaces.

All the measurements for denpressure are right there but they are masked by gravity terms and hidden by a weight complexity using mass/volume in a way that isn't actually required for the weight measurement.

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disputeone

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #355 on: February 11, 2017, 03:07:32 AM »
Alright I get it that makes sense.
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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #356 on: February 11, 2017, 05:08:37 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Well, I'm not expert in this, but my broad understanding is that there are two main factors that determine density (of metals in particular) : atomic mass, and crystalline structure.

Atomic mass is a measure of how much mass each atom of an element has, in relative terms. Silver has an atomic mass of about 108u, whereas for gold it is about 197u.

The crystalline structure of a metal determines how many atoms are in any given volume. Different crystalline structures can mean the atoms are closer together or further apart.

Thus the density of a metal is broadly determined by how many atoms are in a given volume and how much mass each atom has.

We can see that silver and gold probably have similar crystalline structures since their relative densities are roughly in line with their atomic masses.

Quote
Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

The densities differ as already explained. The weights are the same. The silver block will have nearly twice the volume of the gold block.

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #357 on: February 11, 2017, 05:13:49 AM »
You can't have ' atmospheric pressure that any object displaces'  Pressure is not a substance.

We did not sort out the weight/mass of an object varying with the current local atmospheric pressure.  Or not.

Please someone repost as I am on his ignore list!

Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #358 on: February 11, 2017, 05:15:07 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Now I'm not trying to be funny, so here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to super miniaturise you and put you inside both 1kg block and I want you to come back out and tell me what makes one more dense than the other.

Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

So density is how solid the object is, if you were super miniaturised you would find that there was more empty space in the silver block and less empty space in the gold block.

Which makes perfect sense.

Silver has a mass of 10.50 grams per cm3

Gold has a mass of 19.28 grams per cm3

So the amount of empty space in an object limits the amount of atmosphere it can displace, a denser object displaces more atmosphere than a less dense object.

Therefore a kg of lead and a kg of balsa wood displace the same amount of atmosphere and thus have the same weight, they have the same density if you compare them as two objects and a different density if you compare them per cm3.

In general this isn't correct. For the most part varying densities are not due to porosity. The balsa is likely to be porous to an extent, the lead not so. Regardless, a kg of balsa is going to displace a lot more atmosphere than a kg of lead.

[Edit] Actually I'll correct that, because in the case of balsa and wood in general, lower density probably does come to a fairly large extent from trapped air. That's the nature of wood. This isn't the case with metals, though.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:58:48 AM by Copper Knickers »

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sceptimatic

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Re: UA vs Denpressure
« Reply #359 on: February 11, 2017, 06:54:49 AM »
Is 1kg of silver as dense as 1kg of gold?

No. Silver has a density of around 10.5 g/cm3 and gold has a density of around 19.3 g/cm3.

This means that 1kg of silver has a density of 10.5 g/cm3, as does 1 tonne of silver or 1 gram of silver.

Likewise, 1 kg of gold, 1 tonne of gold and 1 gram of gold all have a density of 19.3 g/cm3.

Density is a property of the material. It is independent of how much of the material you are considering.

Quote
If not then just explain why not and let's see where we get to.

It's because equal volumes of different materials don't necessarily have the same mass.
In very basic terms, just explain to me what exactly density is.
I know all about the mass and volume stuff but  to make it easier, explain why 1kg of silver is less dense than 1kg of gold.

Well, I'm not expert in this, but my broad understanding is that there are two main factors that determine density (of metals in particular) : atomic mass, and crystalline structure.

Atomic mass is a measure of how much mass each atom of an element has, in relative terms. Silver has an atomic mass of about 108u, whereas for gold it is about 197u.

The crystalline structure of a metal determines how many atoms are in any given volume. Different crystalline structures can mean the atoms are closer together or further apart.

Thus the density of a metal is broadly determined by how many atoms are in a given volume and how much mass each atom has.

We can see that silver and gold probably have similar crystalline structures since their relative densities are roughly in line with their atomic masses.

Quote
Then after that I'd like you to tell me how density and weight differ with two 1kg blocks of silver and gold.

The densities differ as already explained. The weights are the same. The silver block will have nearly twice the volume of the gold block.
If the weights are the same then they must have the same density in differing mass, right?
If they didn't then they would not weigh the same.

After all, volume is nothing that atmosphere isn't, so we can dismiss volume.
We can then dismiss the mass because that is simply made up of the volume.
It leaves just two dense blocks that weight exactly the same.
They weight exactly the same because of what I've just discarded to get to the reality of denpressure rather than use them in a fictional gravity stunt, made possible by bullshitting pseudo-scientists.