What does politically correct mean?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2017, 09:53:23 AM »
Space Cowgirl, some of your arguments are based on stereotypes and a misunderstanding and really have no place in this debate.
You think I'm just misunderstanding all those rape and death threats? Is it because my simple little lady brain can't comprehend? It's a safe bet that you haven't really looked into the issue much at all, because why would you? It costs you nothing!

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No, it's because people of both sexes would be embarrassed, and because urinals are practically male-only and would be embarrassing for men to use in view of women, and they stink. Men don't just go around being violent, especially not on toilets.


Really, then why are transwomen so afraid to use the men's room? You realize this is one of their arguments for why they should be allowed in the women's bathrooms and changing rooms?  I get the feeling you are much more interested in the political correctness of the matter than facts. Of course, making women afraid to use public restrooms is totally okay. Fuck 'em, right?

While finding statistics for violence committed by transwomen seems to be impossible, there are people out there keeping track as best they can. The media is complicit in hiding the truth, as they tend to report these crimes as being committed by women (in the headlines), only revealing the truth further down the article. This website has collected news reports https://allisonslaw.wordpress.com/ that begins to show a different picture. 

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it's a horribly stereotyped description of trans women.

No, it's not really. Spend some time reading the things they say about themselves.

Speaking of stereotypes, why is it so acceptable to you that so many of these transwomen base their woman personas on stereotypes? So many of the stories they tell are about how they know they are women because of the clothes they like to wear, and makeup.  I know for a fact there are some transwomen who actually have dysphoria, and when they talk about themselves it is never at the expense of women. Most of them understand they have a mental disorder (similar to anorexia).  They are not the ones calling themselves lesbians and sending out threats to women who won't fuck them. When they speak out, they are also threatened!

I don't get why so many liberals are willing to believe that whoever calls themselves a woman is a woman and should be allowed in female segregated spaces.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2017, 10:47:18 AM »
Space Cowgirl, some of your arguments are based on stereotypes and a misunderstanding and really have no place in this debate.
You think I'm just misunderstanding all those rape and death threats? Is it because my simple little lady brain can't comprehend? It's a safe bet that you haven't really looked into the issue much at all, because why would you? It costs you nothing!
I was not talking about the death threats. If you read the rest of my post, which you did, you'd have seen me list which arguments I was referring to, which you hopefully did. Rape and death threats are horrible and a despicable act and I agree with you on that matter, so why are you attacking me?

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No, it's because people of both sexes would be embarrassed, and because urinals are practically male-only and would be embarrassing for men to use in view of women, and they stink. Men don't just go around being violent, especially not on toilets.


Really, then why are transwomen so afraid to use the men's room? You realize this is one of their arguments for why they should be allowed in the women's bathrooms and changing rooms?  I get the feeling you are much more interested in the political correctness of the matter than facts. Of course, making women afraid to use public restrooms is totally okay. Fuck 'em, right?
They are embarrassed, not afraid. Technically we could say it's fear of being seen nude or exposing their genitals, but there it pretty much stops. It's about who a person is more comfortable exposing their genitals and body to - if someone can relate more to women than men mentally and be comfortable around them, the same would apply to going to the toilet or changing room.

And yes, I know there are "extremists" (or however we should call them in this case), but fuck those people. I never did say that trans women should be let into womens toilets or changing rooms, I never expressed my stance on that. It just hurts a bit when people appeal to stereotypes and ignorance. "Afraid" is mostly used because it sounds better than "embarrassed". It's just sugarcoating (well, maybe more like adding spices in this case) the actual reason. Segragating the facilities does not necessarily change anything regarding safety, and most toilet facilities in rich countries have open or no doors (zig-zag corridors) with lockable cubicles that gives each individual their own personal space. The safety of segregated toilets is pretty overrated.

And not all trans women are embarrassed either.

While finding statistics for violence committed by transwomen seems to be impossible, there are people out there keeping track as best they can. The media is complicit in hiding the truth, as they tend to report these crimes as being committed by women (in the headlines), only revealing the truth further down the article. This website has collected news reports https://allisonslaw.wordpress.com/ that begins to show a different picture.
Yes, I never claimed there are no criminals. I'm sure there also are women (non-trans) who commits crimes. This doesn't prove anything. And I did link you to a study where there is statistics on this, why don't you go through that one and give your comment on it?

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it's a horribly stereotyped description of trans women.

No, it's not really. Spend some time reading the things they say about themselves.
The one's who do it for attention and thus gets most of the attention? Might be correct for them. If you're specifically talking about the asshole minority of them, please specify that.

Speaking of stereotypes, why is it so acceptable to you that so many of these transwomen base their woman personas on stereotypes? So many of the stories they tell are about how they know they are women because of the clothes they like to wear, and makeup. I know for a fact there are some transwomen who actually have dysphoria, and when they talk about themselves it is never at the expense of women. Most of them understand they have a mental disorder (similar to anorexia).  They are not the ones calling themselves lesbians and sending out threats to women who won't fuck them. When they speak out, they are also threatened!
*Sigh* really now, putting words in my mouth? "Why is it so acceptable to you...", did I claim any of that?
Anyways, if you really wanted to look like a man and be like a man as much as possible, don't you think you'd aim to use all the stereotypes of men? As an example. But yes, I'm okay about it as long as they don't hurt anyone else (physically or mentally). It's their own body, they can get in whatever clothes they want to and wear makeup. If they talk on the expense of women, then that's rude.

I don't see the point of this argument, it's not like they are using stereotypes to prove anything. And your argument that I was responding to in this quote is ironically one of the reasons trans people get dysphoria in the first place: when trans people are described as cons or sickos and that their mentality is "wrong". Even if you did not refer to real trans people, it didn't really show. And dysphoria can lead to suicide, another reason why I'm telling you your arguments were bad.

I don't get why so many liberals are willing to believe that whoever calls themselves a woman is a woman and should be allowed in female segregated spaces.
Yes, there are some idiots out there and it only hurts real trans people.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2017, 12:23:14 PM »
All societal problems last for generations. Let's say fifty years ago people held onto social views that are hated now. That generation are the ones that shaped your parents, and may have directly shaped you. You may have shrugged some of it off, as your parents may have done, but are you sure every speck is lost?
To move on from the past is a constant effort. The views held by people a hundred years ago can be traced through shockingly few generations, to still affect the instinctive views of people today, and everything built and put into place by those people a hundred years ago was made with their views in mind.
Take it from me. The future follows the past. It is no unseen country, it's just a little more of the one you know.

Never react based on instinct.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2017, 01:04:50 PM »
I don't have time to go over your post right now, but here's another list to consider https://justwantprivacy.org/incidents/

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2017, 04:01:34 PM »


I don't see the point of this argument, it's not like they are using stereotypes to prove anything. And your argument that I was responding to in this quote is ironically one of the reasons trans people get dysphoria in the first place: when trans people are described as cons or sickos and that their mentality is "wrong". Even if you did not refer to real trans people, it didn't really show. And dysphoria can lead to suicide, another reason why I'm telling you your arguments were bad.



If you don't see the point of the argument, was your intention merely to scold me? I don't see the point of you arguing with me, if that is the case. 

I read over the transadvocate link, and of course it's got lots of TERF references. It didn't actually debunk anything except some of the news articles referencing the study.  Transwomen have a similar rate of criminality to men.  This doesn't mean they're all rapists and murderers, but surely you can understand the fear (not embarrassment) women may feel when they encounter a man in the bathroom or changing room?  I know you said you are not advocating for this to happen, but you keep mentioning embarrassment as if that is a woman's main concern.


Are you really saying that a trans person catches dysphoria from what other people say about them?  What does dysphoria leading to suicide have to do with my arguments?


I'm still giggling over your comment that men don't just go around committing acts of violence.   
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2017, 04:14:04 PM »
This thread sure did take a turn for the worst...It started well...Now we are on this idiotic gender debate.

It is simple....Leave it to libtards to complicate something so simple...

There are two genders male and female.....Not 50+

Outie goes in the bathroom that has a picture of a male, or says men's....

Innie goes in the bathroom with the picture of a female, or says women's.

How hard is this?? Damn it..


The only person that can remotely present a case is a hermaphrodite. Even that, the body usually shows what gender it is supposed to be..Most of the time one part is just a useless "bonus". As well as features, mental etc...

Master-evar...As one of the few liberals here I have actually had a decent conversation with, and agreed with some of your views...I am sad to see your views on this subject.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2017, 04:41:06 PM »
I was being as politically incorrect as possible  >:(
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2017, 05:33:08 PM »
The bathroom debate's pretty simple. The question isn't whether assault should become legal in certain settings, it's what bathrooms trans people should be allowed to use. And don't forget, plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without imploding.
But, regardless, the issue proper, it's easy to find photos like this:



That's a trans man in a women's bathroom. Who in that photo do you imagine is feeling comfortable? Certainly not him, but what about other women in that bathroom? If you're worried about men somehow sneaking into women's bathrooms, it's going to be a whole lot easier if sights like that become common.

The bathroom debate literally achieves nothing. Assault isn't going to become legal, and what little bathroom-based assault there is won't be affected because all you'd get is a cis guy pretending to be a trans guy and congrats, you're in the exact same situation, only you've made an entire community feel less than human on top of it. Truly a victory.
Maybe you should stop viewing trans women as just men in dresses.

Anyway, aside:
Dysphoria varies in how it feels, but everyone likes validation. Because people have certain views of gender and gender roles, enjoying those can be a form of validation. It's not healthy, sure, but it's realistic. Plus there's the matter of how trans people are treated, inter and intra community issues; you can find conversations on not being 'trans enough' etc. They're pushed into following certain stereotypes, and jumping through hoops, before people actually acknowledge them.
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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 12:09:12 AM »
The bathroom debate's pretty simple. The question isn't whether assault should become legal in certain settings, it's what bathrooms trans people should be allowed to use. And don't forget, plenty of places have unisex bathrooms without imploding.
But, regardless, the issue proper, it's easy to find photos like this:



That's a trans man in a women's bathroom. Who in that photo do you imagine is feeling comfortable? Certainly not him, but what about other women in that bathroom? If you're worried about men somehow sneaking into women's bathrooms, it's going to be a whole lot easier if sights like that become common.

The bathroom debate literally achieves nothing. Assault isn't going to become legal, and what little bathroom-based assault there is won't be affected because all you'd get is a cis guy pretending to be a trans guy and congrats, you're in the exact same situation, only you've made an entire community feel less than human on top of it. Truly a victory.
Maybe you should stop viewing trans women as just men in dresses.

Anyway, aside:
Dysphoria varies in how it feels, but everyone likes validation. Because people have certain views of gender and gender roles, enjoying those can be a form of validation. It's not healthy, sure, but it's realistic. Plus there's the matter of how trans people are treated, inter and intra community issues; you can find conversations on not being 'trans enough' etc. They're pushed into following certain stereotypes, and jumping through hoops, before people actually acknowledge them.
Thank you very much.

As a clarification - I'm not saying all toilets should be unisex. But the arguments you used Space Cowgirl that I mentioned were based in stereotypes and misunderstandings are detrimental to the debate and especially to REAL trans people.

I don't have time to go over your post right now, but here's another list to consider https://justwantprivacy.org/incidents/
And? They are still not statistics. The study I linked to which follows a large group of real trans people over the course of many years did not find that trans women are as violent as men, far more reliable than a list of articles about criminals who I'm very sure just use the term trans as an excuse. And if we look at the cases, far from all even claim to be trans - a lot of people either just crossdress or peep some other way. Actually, this is just evidence that the safety of segregated toilets is very overrated, and as Jane points out the situation will be the same either way.

If you don't see the point of the argument, was your intention merely to scold me? I don't see the point of you arguing with me, if that is the case. 
I was talking about this specific argument:
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Speaking of stereotypes, why is it so acceptable to you that so many of these transwomen base their woman personas on stereotypes?
It didn't have anything to do with my disdain for arguing using stereotypes.

I read over the transadvocate link, and of course it's got lots of TERF references. It didn't actually debunk anything except some of the news articles referencing the study. Transwomen have a similar rate of criminality to men.
It DID debunk something, you just don't want to accept it. It debunked all claims that it's proved that trans women are as criminal as men, because all those claims were based on a study that was misinterpreted and the author could explain what it actually meant. I fail to see how it was not debunked. Unless you can provide some counter-evidence it's pointless to discuss this any more, as it'll just be ungrounded biased speculation from either side.

This doesn't mean they're all rapists and murderers, but surely you can understand the fear (not embarrassment) women may feel when they encounter a man in the bathroom or changing room?  I know you said you are not advocating for this to happen, but you keep mentioning embarrassment as if that is a woman's main concern.
I'm advocating it as the reason bathrooms and changing rooms are segregated. Of course a person of any sex can be scared if a person of the other sex enter the wrong facility, after all they're prepared to break the rules unless they did it by mistake. I'm addressing embarrassment as the main concern for either sex to keep separated facilities, but I'm not saying it's a bad reason.

Are you really saying that a trans person catches dysphoria from what other people say about them?  What does dysphoria leading to suicide have to do with my arguments?
Gender dysphoria, or Gender Identity Disorder (GID), is caused by assigning and pushing gender-specific traits and ideas onto a person, which conflicts with that persons own gender-specific behaviour. Examples on this is raising a child of a certain sex to "be" the other sex, or saying that a man who feels like a woman is just a man who jerks to sissy porn (where jerking to porn would be pushing gender-specific traits onto a person, stereotypically men are the ones who are horny all the time.) Compassionate, sensual and weak men can be told they need to be strong and rough, or strong and rough women can be told they need to be compassionate, sensual and that they are weak. No person chooses how they are, they can't just change it and when people tell them they aren't what they are or that they have to change what they can't over and over they develop GID. GID leads to depression, which can lead to suicide. I hope it's clear what it has to do with at least one of your arguments now.

I'm still giggling over your comment that men don't just go around committing acts of violence.   
Ironically, I almost laughed at this. And I can't tell if you agree or disagree.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 12:17:13 AM »
Oh and BHS, which of "my views" are you sad of, because so far "my views" have been shoved into my mouth by other(s).
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Bom Tishop

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 05:16:07 AM »
Oh and BHS, which of "my views" are you sad of, because so far "my views" have been shoved into my mouth by other(s).

Well... I won't say much since your views have been "shoved" in your mouth. Maybe I am mistaken.

On this issue though...I have no sympathy for these people...They make a conscious choice to do what they do. If a body builder makes a conscious choice to do steroids, but then complains about health issues or a small penis afterwards...Well boo hoo, it was your choice and you knew the possible consequences.

This is actually a prime example of the largest downfall of the standard modern liberal...No personal accountability at all. If something is hard, let's make it a "mental condition", if something happens let's blame it on someone else, etc etc. That is why they are always treating the effects and not the actual cause. Treating cause is hard, the effect is easy.

Just like the gender issue nonsense...instead of helping these people by trying to find the cause (which is hard and takes time)...They just make laws and medical names, then create the propaganda to peddle it (which is easy)...

People who act this way obviously have issues that need to be addressed...Otherwise depression and suicide rates wouldn't be so high. However, that would be hard and require work of a professional as well as the individual.

I will never agree with males in a female restroom or vice versa. If anything go to a uni sex bathroom, let that be the thuderdome where all things go.

Just another example of the liberal agenda rewarding bad decisions and punishing good ones...How much more proof will be necessary to show this ass backwards approach doesn't work? Leads to a demented society....

I was being as politically incorrect as possible  >:(

I didn't say you weren't, I don't think that post was even directed towards you if you were responding to the one I thought you were.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 05:17:51 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 06:02:29 AM »
People who act this way obviously have issues that need to be addressed...Otherwise depression and suicide rates wouldn't be so high. However, that would be hard and require work of a professional as well as the individual.
So, let's unpack just this one sentence.
You apparently think depression and suicide rates have nothing to do with most of the world insisting someone's identity is inherently wrong, reducing them to the butt of a joke nearly all the time, the fact that a valid legal defense for killing a trans person is "I found out they were trans!" in all states except California...
You apparently think transitioning (which requires hormone replacement therapy: often injections for the rest of their life, talks with a gender identity specialist, voice training, and walking outside knowing that the chance of being murdered skyrockets, and people are going to freak out and pass laws about something as irrelevant as where you can pee) isn't 'hard' or something that 'requires work' from individuals or professionals because apparently everything's conspiring to avoid that.
And you apparently think it's all either a choice (despite the fact there is no reason whatsoever for someone to choose it) or a mental issue which you balk at the obvious treatment of. You can't just deny something exists because it doesn't fit into the narrative you want to peddle.

And to be honest, it doesn't matter if you think being trans is just a fad or choice, because literally none of it has any effect on you. With singers and celebrities that everyone's happy to call by absurd names like Gaga and Snoop and just using a dollar sign in place of an S... People change their names all the time, people get surgery etc to alter their appearance all the time, and no one really cares and everyone's happy to go along with it, right up to the point gender gets mentioned. Gender seriously isn't that sacrosanct.
Using the wrong name, pronouns, placing arbitrary and ridiculous limitations on what they can do... It's willfully being a dick, and not much else.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2017, 07:01:42 AM »
As always, I am amused by the fairytale world you live in Jane. All this fake oppression for these poor people.... Any limitation they have is placed on themselves by themselves.

If you look like a guy walking around in drag, and get turned down for a job...Then so be it, you knew the risk. Just like someone who is tatted up on their face and entire body gets mad for being turned down for a professional job. They knew the risks and did it anyways, there are other jobs that will hire them. It is what it is...

People can do whatever they want individually as long as it doesn't harm another. Do what you do...Just don't get pissy when your choices effect you negatively. Also, don't try to force your agenda on me, or blame me for your negative choices.

Also...Jane...Please, don't use the defense of a guy trying to do everything he can not to get life in prison as an example of how 99.9 percent of the population feels.. ::)

There are reasons for everyone's unhealthy or unnatural actions...Just for me on example..When I was a kid I would lie alot because I was embarrassed of my past, where I came from and myself, when I was in college I abused Adderall and other amphetamine products because I had to work to put myself through school. I used to smoke because of my anxiety issues, and manic depressive nature, as well as consume too much alcohol..Was self medicating. Then really self medicated after I lost my faly, as well as included myself in very stupid and risky actions...Etc etc etc.

I did the hard work to get to the root cause of everything, now I can live medication free and am better off mentally than I have ever been. Sure I have my ups and downs, like everyone else. Sure, my manic depressive nature pops up, but learn to handle it's triggers and effects etc.

I firmly believe I would have killed myself if I kept relying on the "system" or just kept doing what I was doing, blaming everything on everyone else, demanding acceptance for my behavior.


As for the rest of your post....People can create justifications for any action....It does not make the correct, healthy or anything of the sort. There are plenty of people in jail that sit in their cell "justified" in their own mind. Also, it does effect me...This is much bigger than just a dude in drag demanding he be found attractive.

If society continues down the path of rewarding bad/unhealthy behavior and punishing good/healthy behavior it will continue creating a demented society. That effects all of us

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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2017, 07:14:37 AM »
Oh and BHS, which of "my views" are you sad of, because so far "my views" have been shoved into my mouth by other(s).

Well... I won't say much since your views have been "shoved" in your mouth. Maybe I am mistaken.

On this issue though...I have no sympathy for these people...They make a conscious choice to do what they do. If a body builder makes a conscious choice to do steroids, but then complains about health issues or a small penis afterwards...Well boo hoo, it was your choice and you knew the possible consequences.

This is actually a prime example of the largest downfall of the standard modern liberal...No personal accountability at all. If something is hard, let's make it a "mental condition", if something happens let's blame it on someone else, etc etc. That is why they are always treating the effects and not the actual cause. Treating cause is hard, the effect is easy.

Just like the gender issue nonsense...instead of helping these people by trying to find the cause (which is hard and takes time)...They just make laws and medical names, then create the propaganda to peddle it (which is easy)...

People who act this way obviously have issues that need to be addressed...Otherwise depression and suicide rates wouldn't be so high. However, that would be hard and require work of a professional as well as the individual.

I will never agree with males in a female restroom or vice versa. If anything go to a uni sex bathroom, let that be the thuderdome where all things go.

Just another example of the liberal agenda rewarding bad decisions and punishing good ones...How much more proof will be necessary to show this ass backwards approach doesn't work? Leads to a demented society....
It's hard to tell if you are talking about real trans people or people who fake it. Anyone who fakes it, or real trans people who demands that others finds them attractive or who use their situation to their advantage at the expense of others, I'm against. But it's not a choice for real trans people to be trans, if that's what you mean. That's the same old argument as "gay is a choice".

It's well known why real trans people have higher suicide rates and why there are trans people. I explained it a bit here:
Quote
Gender dysphoria, or Gender Identity Disorder (GID), is caused by assigning and pushing gender-specific traits and ideas onto a person, which conflicts with that persons own gender-specific behaviour. Examples on this is raising a child of a certain sex to "be" the other sex, or saying that a man who feels like a woman is just a man who jerks to sissy porn (where jerking to porn would be pushing gender-specific traits onto a person, stereotypically men are the ones who are horny all the time.) Compassionate, sensual and weak men can be told they need to be strong and rough, or strong and rough women can be told they need to be compassionate, sensual and that they are weak. No person chooses how they are, they can't just change it and when people tell them they aren't what they are or that they have to change what they can't over and over they develop GID. GID leads to depression, which can lead to suicide.
I can also add that a trans person does not automatically have GID. A trans person is someone whose mentality fits the stereotype of the opposite gender far more to the point that the person better connects to the opposite gender.
And there are two ways to go about it - acceptance of their personality, or the removal of gender stereotypes. Acceptance means to accept that the trans person "belongs" to the other gender. We humans do not only think of man and woman as biologically different, we also define them (even if only subconsciously in our minds) by their personalities - women have a personality, men have another. If a man have the personality of a woman, he may not feel like a man any more, because gender is often more than just the biology to a lot of people. And there are differences in personality thanks to biological phenomenons, such as hormones. When that person says that he feels like a woman, he doesn't mean he feel he has a vagina. He means that his personality is that of a stereotypical woman. If people refer to him as a man and tell him to act like a man, he's going to get conflicting opinions about himself - on one hand, his personality that is basically impossible to change to a great extent. On the other, what he and others expect of him. By playing along and thinking of him as a woman, he doesn't develop these conflicting ideas and won't develop GID. But gender is also defined biologically, or at least visually in our brain. By looking like a man the man who feels feminine can still develop conflicts in their head, which can be alleviated by changing their looks.
The other way is to remove as many gender stereotypes as possible. If we can remove the stereotype that women have certain personality traits while men have others, then there won't be such a thing as "feeling like a woman" or "feeling like a man", it's only going to be "feeling like yourself". Practically, in such a society, trans people would not exist, because there is no mental gender but only different people. Biologically, a man can still have hormone levels comparable to a woman and thus "behave" more like a woman. As long as that behaviour is not stereotypically given to women the man can still feel content with who they are.
It's really hard for humans to not make stereotypes, that's why it's needed that everyone can at least to some extent respect someone who feels that they belong to the opposite gender.

Regarding restrooms, I don't really know. Unisex is definitely good, but I don't know how sex segregated restrooms should be handled.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2017, 07:37:47 AM »
As always, I am amused by the fairytale world you live in Jane. All this fake oppression for these poor people.... Any limitation they have is placed on themselves by themselves.
Hardly fake oppression when it's easy to list examples. You've just decided oppression isn't oppression, for no reason beyond not wanting to feel responsible. This all comes down to two points:

1. Being trans is not a stylistic choice. It doesn't remotely compare to being a 'guy walking around in drag,' and it is not a 'imitation' that people place on themselves.
2. Even if it was, it doesn't matter. A lot of your comparison arguments provide similarly ridiculous situations; if there's a job which would actually be affected by someone having tattoos, concealer exists. No problem.

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If society continues down the path of rewarding bad/unhealthy behavior and punishing good/healthy behavior it will continue creating a demented society. That effects all of us
What exactly is the 'bad/unhealthy behavior' here? Being trans isn't bad, unless you're making gender sacrosanct for no real reason. And as for unhealthy, it's only unhealthy due to how they're treated; just look at what we're talking about in this discussion. The chance of being murdered skyrockets, for trans women they're a cliche of ugliness and just treated as a punchline, 'trans panic' defenses, being kicked out of the house, not being called by the right/chosen name when people will happily call someone else 'the Rock' instead of worrying about what they were born as, not being able to go to toilet without probably getting yelled at... None of that is the trans person's fault.
if you're going to make that kind of circular argument, then the country'll stagnate. The only reason there's any 'unhealthiness' associated with being trans is down to how they're treated, and that treatment shouldn't be defended. It really doesn't matter what you believe, in this situation your choices are either favoring persecution, or favoring someone whose choices don't affect you. And that's it.
What's dangerous is giving a free pass to awful behavior because you refuse to acknowledge that your actions affect others.

Seriously, every time I talk with you, you obsess over how a person's choices affect them, and you completely ignore the fact that they also often affect other people.
I really couldn't care less what someone does to and for themselves, I'm more concerned with how they affect the world at large. Trans people? Doesn't matter. Deciding they should be limited? Does matter.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2017, 08:07:28 AM »
I do not believe it should be legal for the transgendered to be discriminated against for housing or employment, or that they should be murdered, or that they should be denied medical care. However I do believe that this massive uptick in people claiming to be trans is a fad, a social contagion. They are no longer required to go through rigorous counseling in order to acquire hormones, as physicians and therapists are afraid to deny them or else they'd be vilified and lose their jobs (see http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html ).  Any professional who expresses a view that conflicts with the accepted dogma can expect to be threatened, can expect their children to be threatened, can expect to be shunned by their colleagues.

I also don't believe most of these bathroom bills are a good idea. It has so far succeeded in getting gnc women kicked out of women's bathrooms. There have always been women who don't dress all frilly and who have short hair, they're not men, they don't think they're men.  I'm pretty sure passing transwomen have always used the women's and transmen (who pass much easier) have always used the men's. It's the truly bizarre ones, like Stefonknee Wolscht, or Danielle Muscato who have made all this shit a problem. "Stefonknee" is a fetishist ("she" is a 6yr old girl too). "Danielle" has been active in the atheist thing for awhile, "she" has decided to be a woman. Hasn't done anything to transition, claims to be unsafe in men's bathrooms, recently took a space in a women's and children's emergency shelter.

Master_Evar, lots of these people are just dudes with a fetish. I know you find that offensive, I can't help that.  You haven't been refuting my arguments, though. You seem to think I don't know the definition of these things. I do, which is why I know it's bullshit to blame someone's dysphoria and suicide on the things I've said.  Using the threat of suicide to police other people is manipulation. We should all be critical of gender, not embrace it and enforce it.  This whole "assigned gender" thing is something everyone experiences. Gender = sex stereotypes. For example - I don't identify with the notion that I, a woman,  should be the one who washes the dishes, but it is expected of me, and I do it. My brothers were never expected or required to wash the dishes. They had other gendered expectations. None of this is fucking innate.   Your sex, on the other hand, is innate. There is no amount of surgery or hormone treatment that can change it.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Rama Set

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2017, 09:07:09 AM »
I think the medical diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria is a huge issue that is just being glossed over without any significant scientific investigation in to it.  This is a huge problem, because it may turn out that indulging this health issue may be detrimental, or it may turn out to be the correct course, but we have no fucking idea.  Current treatments do not appear to have a meaningful impact on the mental health of those transitioning, and to allow children, whose brains will undergo massive changes to be diagnosed with this seems unethical to say the least.  I am open to the trans community, but doctors have to be able to do their jobs.

In the meantime, people should not worry about bathrooms so much.
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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2017, 09:42:23 AM »
However I do believe that this massive uptick in people claiming to be trans is a fad, a social contagion. They are no longer required to go through rigorous counseling in order to acquire hormones, as physicians and therapists are afraid to deny them or else they'd be vilified and lose their jobs (see http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html ).  Any professional who expresses a view that conflicts with the accepted dogma can expect to be threatened, can expect their children to be threatened, can expect to be shunned by their colleagues.
The uptick likely comes from the internet and its various benefits; it's not unique to trans people, you can find whole communities of people who went online, came into contact with people they might not otherwise run into, or read pages, and just had a moment of "Oh, so that's what that is." You can never really compare your own experiences with others because you're not in their heads. Typically, people becoming aware of what being trans actually is is bound to lead to more people realizing that they're trans.
As far as fetishes go, it's very rare for a sexual fetish to lead to someone permanently changing their lives, with hormone treatments etc. Sure, there are some guys who get off on it (though I wouldn't be surprised if there's an overlap between them and trans people; a decent part of sex is being comfortable with yourself, and for trans women who're more comfortable in women's clothing then it would be possible to mistake that for a fetish). But men who just have a crossdressing fetish aren't exactly going to uproot their entire life for an orgasm. The number of full-time fetishists is tiny.

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It's the truly bizarre ones, like Stefonknee Wolscht, or Danielle Muscato who have made all this shit a problem. "Stefonknee" is a fetishist ("she" is a 6yr old girl too). "Danielle" has been active in the atheist thing for awhile, "she" has decided to be a woman. Hasn't done anything to transition, claims to be unsafe in men's bathrooms, recently took a space in a women's and children's emergency shelter.
Stefonkee's a pretty clear extreme case and hardly representative. To be honest, I expect she's trans, the six-year-old aspect is the fetish, little-girl's hardly a unique kink. The trans community is going to be just as diverse and/or creepy as the cis community. I'm sure there's a disturbing corner of the internet out there where cis women talk about doing something similar, I've seen some of the fringes.
As far as Danielle goes, that's easy. If you think about what's required in transitioning, it's huge, particularly for trans women who get treated like fetishists or just men in dresses. People are going to be ready to come out before they can transition, and even then there's a lot to do when it comes to transitioning, and in the mean time it's best to at least be safe. Presenting as one gender rather than somewhere between male and female is just safer. Being trans isn't a decision, as you paint it, and transitioning is a big deal.

If you think about the end result of a transition for a trans woman, leaving aside things like surgery (a can of worms of its own; there's a fair bit of risk) you'll need an entirely new wardrobe, hormone replacement (changing curves, growing breasts...), buying and learning make-up... and you'll need to carry on your life while going though that.
Someone at the halfway stage however won't be able to pass as male and female, guess how they'll be treated?
It's not exactly a surprise that some people are wary about going through it.

And you're left with a pretty clear situation. Should bathrooms only allow entry based on appearance? Well, clearly not, women can look all kinds of ways, and wear all kinds of clothes. Should it be based on genitals? Well, intersex community outside, that would still lead to people who pass one way going into the wrong bathroom (and I think trans men are less likely to alter that, so you're stuck with men in women's bathrooms).
People aren't going to come out as trans for fun. It's not fun. And those with the fetish are more likely to be in the men's room anyway because they don't actually identify as women, and usually part of the fetish is seducing guys because most of the crossdressing kink comes from stereotypes.

A women's emergency shelter is trickier, though again there is an issue of drawing the line as to what point in transition. It's worth pointing out that part of the definition of being trans is not seeing yourself the same way others do, so it's understandable. And trans people do need shelters.
I don't know what kind of shelter it was, so I can't say much more. Trans women and cis women do face different issues, and trans women were often socialized differently, so there is a divide to a certain point, but most of that is really just irrelevant.

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Your sex, on the other hand, is innate. There is no amount of surgery or hormone treatment that can change it.
How often do you really need to know someone's chromosomes?
For that matter, do you even know your own? I don't. There's plenty more than just xx and xy, and a lot aren't noticeable. Seriously, there is literally no context in which your chromosomes matter, save to medical professionals.

I think the medical diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria is a huge issue that is just being glossed over without any significant scientific investigation in to it.  This is a huge problem, because it may turn out that indulging this health issue may be detrimental, or it may turn out to be the correct course, but we have no fucking idea.  Current treatments do not appear to have a meaningful impact on the mental health of those transitioning, and to allow children, whose brains will undergo massive changes to be diagnosed with this seems unethical to say the least.  I am open to the trans community, but doctors have to be able to do their jobs.

In the meantime, people should not worry about bathrooms so much.
Most of the mental health difficulties come from how they're treated. As far as children go, usually they're given hormones to stave off puberty until they're sure, and that's entirely ethical because it's perfectly reversible, and the physical changes someone goes through in puberty make transition immeasurably harder than it would be otherwise.

Generally studies do seem to show transition helps, it's just very murky because it's hard to isolate the effects of that from the effects of how they're treated. There's a study by Dr Cecilia Dhejne (a Swedish study, if memory serves) that's become almost a cliche to quote saying transition doesn't help (or, on a note related to something Space Cowgirl brought up, that trans women are as criminal as cis men) but it actually doesn't show anything of the kind, and the writer of said study says as much, most of the issues can clearly be noted to reduce when there's more social support (and in the criminal case, they only measured conviction rate, not conviction type, so tax fraud to get money to afford hormones wouldn't be distinguishable from assault, for example).
Easy example is: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/25690443
But, yeah, trans advocacy is basically in its infancy so there's a lot that can be worked on.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2017, 10:09:32 AM »
I have fully functioning female anatomy, I don't need to have my chromosomes checked ;)  (also, intersex people do not appreciate being used as examples in trans politics)

Children who are given puberty blockers, and then cross sex hormones become sterile. These puberty blockers are being used off label, as they're intended use is for the treatment of cancer. According to Dr Zucker, more than 80% of children who feel gender dysphoria will outgrow it if treated with proper counseling. Many of them will grow up to be normal homosexuals. His approach was to take it easy, try to help the child accept their sex if possible, only start children on a lifetime of medicine if it proves to be necessary. He was, of course, fired, threatened, and libeled.

Bathrooms have always allowed entry based on appearance. Before all the media hype about trans issues, we had no trouble determining who should be in which bathroom. Now, in some places, a person can claim to be trans and that is all it takes. Women who object to this are called bigots. Don't worry your silly little heads about the woman exposing his dick to the 10yr old girls in the sauna! It's totally a lady dick.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2017, 10:23:35 AM »
I think the medical diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria is a huge issue that is just being glossed over without any significant scientific investigation in to it.  This is a huge problem, because it may turn out that indulging this health issue may be detrimental, or it may turn out to be the correct course, but we have no fucking idea.  Current treatments do not appear to have a meaningful impact on the mental health of those transitioning, and to allow children, whose brains will undergo massive changes to be diagnosed with this seems unethical to say the least.  I am open to the trans community, but doctors have to be able to do their jobs.

In the meantime, people should not worry about bathrooms so much.

Well said...Are you sure you are a liberal lol?? You seem to be some sort of hybrid species ha... This isn't the first response that made me wonder.

I do not believe it should be legal for the transgendered to be discriminated against for housing or employment, or that they should be murdered, or that they should be denied medical care. However I do believe that this massive uptick in people claiming to be trans is a fad, a social contagion. They are no longer required to go through rigorous counseling in order to acquire hormones, as physicians and therapists are afraid to deny them or else they'd be vilified and lose their jobs (see http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html ).  Any professional who expresses a view that conflicts with the accepted dogma can expect to be threatened, can expect their children to be threatened, can expect to be shunned by their colleagues.

I also don't believe most of these bathroom bills are a good idea. It has so far succeeded in getting gnc women kicked out of women's bathrooms. There have always been women who don't dress all frilly and who have short hair, they're not men, they don't think they're men.  I'm pretty sure passing transwomen have always used the women's and transmen (who pass much easier) have always used the men's. It's the truly bizarre ones, like Stefonknee Wolscht, or Danielle Muscato who have made all this shit a problem. "Stefonknee" is a fetishist ("she" is a 6yr old girl too). "Danielle" has been active in the atheist thing for awhile, "she" has decided to be a woman. Hasn't done anything to transition, claims to be unsafe in men's bathrooms, recently took a space in a women's and children's emergency shelter.

Master_Evar, lots of these people are just dudes with a fetish. I know you find that offensive, I can't help that.  You haven't been refuting my arguments, though. You seem to think I don't know the definition of these things. I do, which is why I know it's bullshit to blame someone's dysphoria and suicide on the things I've said.  Using the threat of suicide to police other people is manipulation. We should all be critical of gender, not embrace it and enforce it.  This whole "assigned gender" thing is something everyone experiences. Gender = sex stereotypes. For example - I don't identify with the notion that I, a woman,  should be the one who washes the dishes, but it is expected of me, and I do it. My brothers were never expected or required to wash the dishes. They had other gendered expectations. None of this is fucking innate.   Your sex, on the other hand, is innate. There is no amount of surgery or hormone treatment that can change it.


Very well said...Saved me alot of typing...

Hardly fake oppression when it's easy to list examples. You've just decided oppression isn't oppression, for no reason beyond not wanting to feel responsible. This all comes down to two points:

1. Being trans is not a stylistic choice. It doesn't remotely compare to being a 'guy walking around in drag,' and it is not a 'imitation' that people place on themselves.
2. Even if it was, it doesn't matter. A lot of your comparison arguments provide similarly ridiculous situations; if there's a job which would actually be affected by someone having tattoos, concealer exists. No problem.

Lol...Well on a pure technical level, a trans guy is a dude walking around in drag...

My comparisons are not ridiculous...Maybe to you since it involves self accountability which we know from many arguments you loathe the concept, however it doesn't change the fact.

If I smoke till I have a hole in my throat, I wouldn't be a good fit for a customer service job. Doesn't give me a right to get mad at the company or people...Or if I have a weird hairdo that wouldn't work in a professional environment along with crazy colors, it was my doing, I must own it.

Same with say a guy that gives off a weird vibe wearing a wig and high heels. Wanna do that, fine...But if it is off putting to possible employment or other people, deal with it.

People can do whatever they want as long as it isn't hurting others. Just don't expect me to not think there are underlying issues, find it right, or find you attractive. Nor would I want you babysitting my children, for reasons of mental stability stated above.

Say, even my best friend in the planet I have known for 14 years who has been a father figure to me. If he suddenly told me he identified as a woman, and started dressing in womens clothing...I would still love him the same, but I would also try and get to the root cause of what is causing the change of attitude.

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What exactly is the 'bad/unhealthy behavior' here? Being trans isn't bad, unless you're making gender sacrosanct for no real reason. And as for unhealthy, it's only unhealthy due to how they're treated; just look at what we're talking about in this discussion. The chance of being murdered skyrockets, for trans women they're a cliche of ugliness and just treated as a punchline, 'trans panic' defenses, being kicked out of the house, not being called by the right/chosen name when people will happily call someone else 'the Rock' instead of worrying about what they were born as, not being able to go to toilet without probably getting yelled at... None of that is the trans person's fault.
It is their fault though...No one made them dress up like this or choose these actions. So be it if someone doesn't find you attractive when you are a man trying to be a women... I don't like men as women, nor do I like a woman with a mustache (real women included)..If I wanted to pretend to be female, I wouldn't be mad at others if they were turned off by my appearance. It is what it is. There is someone that will find you attractive somewhere..

If someone doesn't want you in their house..It is their choice, just like it is their choice to not have someone in their house holding a loaded gun. Same with businesses....Though I am unaware of any that discriminate against these people...If their was it would be their right. That is capitalism, one business might reject, that is their loss because those people rejected will go down the street and do business there.

As long as there are no laws oppressing these people, then they are free and not oppressed...Which there are no laws.

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if you're going to make that kind of circular argument, then the country'll stagnate. The only reason there's any 'unhealthiness' associated with being trans is down to how they're treated, and that treatment shouldn't be defended. It really doesn't matter what you believe, in this situation your choices are either favoring persecution, or favoring someone whose choices don't affect you. And that's it.
What's dangerous is giving a free pass to awful behavior because you refuse to acknowledge that your actions affect others.

Seriously, every time I talk with you, you obsess over how a person's choices affect them, and you completely ignore the fact that they also often affect other people.
I really couldn't care less what someone does to and for themselves, I'm more concerned with how they affect the world at large. Trans people? Doesn't matter. Deciding they should be limited? Does matter.

As I have said...People can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others. However, forcing their life style on me, or forcing me to accept it, they can fuck off with that. Just like it is your right to wear a wig...It is my right to disagree with that.

Just like it is your right to say it is natural...It is my right to say it is not. It is my right to say let's have dinner, but also my right to veto you hanging out with my children alone. Just like I wouldn't want a sexual predator, a suicidal person or a violent person with my children I wouldn't want a guy wear a wig talking with a high voice saying his name is Jill watching my children.

Everything in my gut, plus all my experience with these type of people tell me they have serious unresolved psychological issues...Having someone like that care for my children would not happen.


The simple truth...These people want us to find them attractive, condone their activity, shut our mouths in disapproval and even give them special treatment...This is what they and people like yourself want, not equality. Just like third wave feminism wants supremacy not equality.

People like this want their choices and opinions to be mine, so it is people like this that disagree with freedom and civil liberty, not me...So perhaps you should rephrase that statement.

There are no laws oppressing these people...It is just the opinions of people, if they thought as I did "you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt someone or remove their liberty" then we wouldn't even be having this issue right now.

So maybe you are yelling at the wrong person...Perhaps you should be debating them instead.
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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2017, 10:28:37 AM »
Master_Evar, lots of these people are just dudes with a fetish.
So you WERE talking about those people. Next time, don't hold it in after I asked you:
The one's who do it for attention and thus gets most of the attention? Might be correct for them. If you're specifically talking about the asshole minority of them, please specify that.
So you're not actually speaking of real trans people, but the "trans" people. Or as you put it, the fetishists.

I know you find that offensive, I can't help that.
Why would I find it offensive? I don't think I need help with something I'm not?

You haven't been refuting my arguments, though.
Yes, I have. The study doesn't go away because you want it to, neither does the fact that you weren't actually talking about real trans people, but wrote it as if you were talking about real trans people.

You seem to think I don't know the definition of these things. I do, which is why I know it's bullshit to blame someone's dysphoria and suicide on the things I've said. Using the threat of suicide to police other people is manipulation. We should all be critical of gender, not embrace it and enforce it. This whole "assigned gender" thing is something everyone experiences. Gender = sex stereotypes. For example - I don't identify with the notion that I, a woman, should be the one who washes the dishes, but it is expected of me, and I do it. My brothers were never expected or required to wash the dishes. They had other gendered expectations. None of this is fucking innate.   Your sex, on the other hand, is innate. There is no amount of surgery or hormone treatment that can change it.
Yes, but what you said has nothing with mentality and personality to do. Actually, my response to this is what I wrote to BHS:
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And there are two ways to go about it - acceptance of their personality, or the removal of gender stereotypes. Acceptance means to accept that the trans person "belongs" to the other gender. We humans do not only think of man and woman as biologically different, we also define them (even if only subconsciously in our minds) by their personalities - women have a personality, men have another. If a man have the personality of a woman, he may not feel like a man any more, because gender is often more than just the biology to a lot of people. And there are differences in personality thanks to biological phenomenons, such as hormones. When that person says that he feels like a woman, he doesn't mean he feel he has a vagina. He means that his personality is that of a stereotypical woman. If people refer to him as a man and tell him to act like a man, he's going to get conflicting opinions about himself - on one hand, his personality that is basically impossible to change to a great extent. On the other, what he and others expect of him. By playing along and thinking of him as a woman, he doesn't develop these conflicting ideas and won't develop GID. But gender is also defined biologically, or at least visually in our brain. By looking like a man the man who feels feminine can still develop conflicts in their head, which can be alleviated by changing their looks.
The other way is to remove as many gender stereotypes as possible. If we can remove the stereotype that women have certain personality traits while men have others, then there won't be such a thing as "feeling like a woman" or "feeling like a man", it's only going to be "feeling like yourself". Practically, in such a society, trans people would not exist, because there is no mental gender but only different people. Biologically, a man can still have hormone levels comparable to a woman and thus "behave" more like a woman. As long as that behaviour is not stereotypically given to women the man can still feel content with who they are.
It's really hard for humans to not make stereotypes, that's why it's needed that everyone can at least to some extent respect someone who feels that they belong to the opposite gender.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Bom Tishop

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2017, 10:36:42 AM »
I was never sold on the fact being gay was not a choice. Until there is actual unbiased proof in that (or anything that isn't just confirmational bias), i wouldn't even consider anything else "not being a choice"...The liberal catch phrase.

Deep seated emotional issues can cause many weird actions to come to surface in many different forms.
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Master_Evar

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2017, 10:57:31 AM »
I was never sold on the fact being gay was not a choice. Until there is actual unbiased proof in that (or anything that isn't just confirmational bias), i wouldn't even consider anything else "not being a choice"...The liberal catch phrase.

Deep seated emotional issues can cause many weird actions to come to surface in many different forms.
Wait, maybe I read this wrong, but do you seriously think that being gay is a choice?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2017, 12:38:40 PM »
I have fully functioning female anatomy, I don't need to have my chromosomes checked ;)  (also, intersex people do not appreciate being used as examples in trans politics)
I'm just using them as a simple example; you can't honestly say what your chromosomes are, so clearly they don't matter. Ditto, how often do you check how functioning someone's anatomy is?

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Children who are given puberty blockers, and then cross sex hormones become sterile. These puberty blockers are being used off label, as they're intended use is for the treatment of cancer. According to Dr Zucker, more than 80% of children who feel gender dysphoria will outgrow it if treated with proper counseling. Many of them will grow up to be normal homosexuals. His approach was to take it easy, try to help the child accept their sex if possible, only start children on a lifetime of medicine if it proves to be necessary. He was, of course, fired, threatened, and libeled.
Didn't know that about puberty blockers, so thanks for letting me know. Even so, it's undeniable that infertility is less serious than suicide. Most activism is carried out by trans adults, who often would have really wanted to start earlier. To my knowledge though, fertility isn't affected permanently by the puberty blockers; that requires hormones. Plus, children aren't idiots, especially if they feel something for a prolonged period of time, it's more than likely accurate.
Can't say much about Zucker without seeing more detail. It depends what the criteria is for dysphoria; if it's something only felt for a day or so, or briefly, then no one would propose they start transitioning. How long was the child dysphoric for before seeking counselling? And then there's the matter of how his counselling is defined. It can be phrased all kinds of ways, but "Take it easy, see what happens," can still be dissuading, children feel like they have a lot of time to figure it out, and honestly if you're going to insist they can't realize they're trans, then they likely don't realize the effect waiting until after puberty can have.
As for how he was treated, again,d on't know enough to say. I mean, there are long discussions that can be had on call-out culture, which is definitely a problem, but equally it doesn't mean he wasn't doing harm.

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Bathrooms have always allowed entry based on appearance. Before all the media hype about trans issues, we had no trouble determining who should be in which bathroom. Now, in some places, a person can claim to be trans and that is all it takes. Women who object to this are called bigots. Don't worry your silly little heads about the woman exposing his dick to the 10yr old girls in the sauna! It's totally a lady dick.
If someone's actively exposing themselves, rather than sitting there and minding their own business, that's a problem no matter the situation. If someone's sitting down, you'd need to actively try to get a look at them.
Bringing something that was always an issue to the spotlight is not 'media hype.' Trans people have been worrying about bathrooms for years, just because you're only just now hearing of it doesn't make it a new problem.

I mean, sure, I'll be the first to admit there are tricky issues, but most of that's down to absurd levels of gender essentialism.

My comparisons are not ridiculous...Maybe to you since it involves self accountability which we know from many arguments you loathe the concept, however it doesn't change the fact.
I have no issue with self-accountability, so long as context is taken into account. As you've repeatedly demonstrated, you don't want to acknowledge the affect one person's actions can have on another.

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People can do whatever they want as long as it isn't hurting others. Just don't expect me to not think there are underlying issues, find it right, or find you attractive.
Finding attractive's a whole issue; if someone's unattractive just because they're trans, that is a problem, because you know literally nothing about them. It's a blanket statement that likely has exceptions, you just wouldn't register them.
Here's the thing: "People can do whatever they won't so long as it isn't hurting others," is contradicted by you actively assuming the worst and treating them worse for no reason beyond personal dislike. You're not giving any justification, just assuming they're not 'mentally stable' for reasons I've yet to see.

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It is their fault though...No one made them dress up like this or choose these actions.
Is that seriously how you see the world? The blame is always on the people who choose to make others feel bad for no good reason.
People choose to dye their hair, choose their religion, choose to eat certain foods... And if you decided to fire someone because they dyed their hair black, or were Christian, or had a breakfast bar, you'd be called out on it because it's idiotic and does not affect their ability to do their job. Smoking does affect your ability to do your job in customer service due to issues with second-hand smoking, the clothes you choose to wear and the name you asked to be called does not. And this is assuming your worst-case view of being trans, that it's all just some fad or choice.
Why do you always balk at examining the accountability of the person who has the problem?

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As long as there are no laws oppressing these people, then they are free and not oppressed...Which there are no laws.
That's not how oppression works. Even if we grant there are no such laws, oppression is entirely rooted in social attitudes. That's where the laws come from.

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The simple truth...These people want us to find them attractive, condone their activity, shut our mouths in disapproval and even give them special treatment...This is what they and people like yourself want, not equality. Just like third wave feminism wants supremacy not equality.
The narrative you want to be the case, just to make yourself feel like the plucky underdog, is not reality.
No special treatment, just fair treatment. Judge them based on who they are, not generalizations, and don't completely ignore the fundamentals of how oppression actually works. Treating everyone equally under the law only works if everyone is being treated equally under society.

Take this nonsense:
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Just like I wouldn't want a sexual predator, a suicidal person or a violent person with my children I wouldn't want a guy wear a wig talking with a high voice saying his name is Jill watching my children.
Those don't compare in the slightest. You know nothing about the person, you just make a snap judgement based on something with no link to what you're asking them to do. Assuming trans = equivalent to being a sexual predator/suicidal/violent is the definition of oppression, because it's not an informed or logical decision, it's venom based on petty dislike.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2017, 02:02:45 PM »
Master_Evar, lots of these people are just dudes with a fetish.
So you WERE talking about those people. Next time, don't hold it in after I asked you:
The one's who do it for attention and thus gets most of the attention? Might be correct for them. If you're specifically talking about the asshole minority of them, please specify that.
So you're not actually speaking of real trans people, but the "trans" people. Or as you put it, the fetishists.

I know you find that offensive, I can't help that.
Why would I find it offensive? I don't think I need help with something I'm not?

You haven't been refuting my arguments, though.
Yes, I have. The study doesn't go away because you want it to, neither does the fact that you weren't actually talking about real trans people, but wrote it as if you were talking about real trans people.

No true trans!! You are completely ignoring the fact that trans is considered an "umbrella" term and all those fetishists are considered trans for the purpose of access to female segregated spaces.  I do not care what they jerk it to at home, but they insist on including the world in their fetish. The law, in some places, backs them up. If there is some way to determine who the real trans people are out there in the real world, let me know.

The study clearly shows transwomen retain male patterns of violence.  The transadvocate website is not a reliable source. If you can find another source that refutes the study, then I'd be happy to read it. I will automatically reject any source that refers to Sheila Jeffreys as a TERF. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2017, 02:34:04 PM »
The study clearly shows transwomen retain male patterns of violence.   
Sorry for butting in, but I like talking about stats and studies.
The only such study I've seen is Cecilia Dhejne, but it ought to be pointed out that she's trans-friendly:
http://www.rfsu.se/sv/RFSU-nara-dig/RFSU-Stockholm/Nyhetsbrev/Nyhetsbrev-32012/Eldsjalspokal-gar-till-lakare-som-jobbar-med-transpersoners-rattigheter/
That's in Swedish, but if your browser can translate, do so.

She did a study for academic research that was twisted to fit an agenda after the fact and against her, but if memory serves the study in question measured more rate of crime, than rate of violence. It's subtle, but there's a difference, because a straightforward assault wouldn't register any different to, say, theft. Take into account the higher poverty rates in the trans community, and you're more likely to just be measuring the increase in crime and conviction among the less wealthy (because they need to cut corners more, and don't have the resources to get off so easily. Poorer neighborhoods often do see more crime from necessity, for example).
The study also showed, I believe, a marked decrease in crime among trans women in times where there was more support and acceptance available, which would in turn impact poverty rate.

Stats are a great source if you look at all the variables, rather than looking for a specific conclusion. There's not enough to support your claim.


Also:
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No true trans!! You are completely ignoring the fact that trans is considered an "umbrella" term and all those fetishists are considered trans for the purpose of access to female segregated spaces.  I do not care what they jerk it to at home, but they insist on including the world in their fetish. The law, in some places, backs them up. If there is some way to determine who the real trans people are out there in the real world, let me know.
Why punish the 'true trans' people?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2017, 02:50:18 PM »
I have fully functioning female anatomy, I don't need to have my chromosomes checked ;)  (also, intersex people do not appreciate being used as examples in trans politics)
I'm just using them as a simple example; you can't honestly say what your chromosomes are, so clearly they don't matter. Ditto, how often do you check how functioning someone's anatomy is?

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Children who are given puberty blockers, and then cross sex hormones become sterile. These puberty blockers are being used off label, as they're intended use is for the treatment of cancer. According to Dr Zucker, more than 80% of children who feel gender dysphoria will outgrow it if treated with proper counseling. Many of them will grow up to be normal homosexuals. His approach was to take it easy, try to help the child accept their sex if possible, only start children on a lifetime of medicine if it proves to be necessary. He was, of course, fired, threatened, and libeled.
Didn't know that about puberty blockers, so thanks for letting me know. Even so, it's undeniable that infertility is less serious than suicide. Most activism is carried out by trans adults, who often would have really wanted to start earlier. To my knowledge though, fertility isn't affected permanently by the puberty blockers; that requires hormones. Plus, children aren't idiots, especially if they feel something for a prolonged period of time, it's more than likely accurate.
Can't say much about Zucker without seeing more detail. It depends what the criteria is for dysphoria; if it's something only felt for a day or so, or briefly, then no one would propose they start transitioning. How long was the child dysphoric for before seeking counselling? And then there's the matter of how his counselling is defined. It can be phrased all kinds of ways, but "Take it easy, see what happens," can still be dissuading, children feel like they have a lot of time to figure it out, and honestly if you're going to insist they can't realize they're trans, then they likely don't realize the effect waiting until after puberty can have.
As for how he was treated, again,d on't know enough to say. I mean, there are long discussions that can be had on call-out culture, which is definitely a problem, but equally it doesn't mean he wasn't doing harm.

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Bathrooms have always allowed entry based on appearance. Before all the media hype about trans issues, we had no trouble determining who should be in which bathroom. Now, in some places, a person can claim to be trans and that is all it takes. Women who object to this are called bigots. Don't worry your silly little heads about the woman exposing his dick to the 10yr old girls in the sauna! It's totally a lady dick.
If someone's actively exposing themselves, rather than sitting there and minding their own business, that's a problem no matter the situation. If someone's sitting down, you'd need to actively try to get a look at them.
Bringing something that was always an issue to the spotlight is not 'media hype.' Trans people have been worrying about bathrooms for years, just because you're only just now hearing of it doesn't make it a new problem.

I mean, sure, I'll be the first to admit there are tricky issues, but most of that's down to absurd levels of gender essentialism.

You brought up chromosomes, and asked me if I knew my own. Yes, I do. I was not born with an intersex condition, I have a normally functioning sexual anatomy meaning I am not infertile. Intersex conditions, when not noticed at birth, are often discovered during puberty or when trying to become pregnant.  Intersex is often brought up during trans debates, but the two are not the same.  Most intersex people do not feel as if they are in the wrong body.   

There's plenty of detail online about Dr Ken Zucker. He's not the first to face this type of backlash. This describes what Ray Blanchard and Micheal Bailey faced https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/   

I didn't say that fertility was affected by the blockers, it is the immediate follow up with cross sex hormones that leads to infertility.  The truth is there is no research yet on long term use of puberty blockers. People who take them during cancer treatment are only on them for a few months, delay of puberty is a side effect.  You may be interested in knowing about Lupron http://lupronvictimshub.com/lawsuits.html

I am not only "just now" hearing about all this trans stuff. It should be obvious by now that I am a radical feminist, not the fun kind.  My opinions have killed at least 50,000 transwomen!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2017, 03:05:53 PM »
The study clearly shows transwomen retain male patterns of violence.   
Sorry for butting in, but I like talking about stats and studies.
The only such study I've seen is Cecilia Dhejne, but it ought to be pointed out that she's trans-friendly:
http://www.rfsu.se/sv/RFSU-nara-dig/RFSU-Stockholm/Nyhetsbrev/Nyhetsbrev-32012/Eldsjalspokal-gar-till-lakare-som-jobbar-med-transpersoners-rattigheter/
That's in Swedish, but if your browser can translate, do so.

She did a study for academic research that was twisted to fit an agenda after the fact and against her, but if memory serves the study in question measured more rate of crime, than rate of violence. It's subtle, but there's a difference, because a straightforward assault wouldn't register any different to, say, theft. Take into account the higher poverty rates in the trans community, and you're more likely to just be measuring the increase in crime and conviction among the less wealthy (because they need to cut corners more, and don't have the resources to get off so easily. Poorer neighborhoods often do see more crime from necessity, for example).
The study also showed, I believe, a marked decrease in crime among trans women in times where there was more support and acceptance available, which would in turn impact poverty rate.

Stats are a great source if you look at all the variables, rather than looking for a specific conclusion. There's not enough to support your claim.



From the study -

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Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.

The later group they studied had less data, correct? The older group would have had about 40 years worth.  I would be interested in the results of a new study of the same subjects.

No true trans!! You are completely ignoring the fact that trans is considered an "umbrella" term and all those fetishists are considered trans for the purpose of access to female segregated spaces.  I do not care what they jerk it to at home, but they insist on including the world in their fetish. The law, in some places, backs them up. If there is some way to determine who the real trans people are out there in the real world, let me know.
Why punish the 'true trans' people?

Tell me who they are and I won't punish them.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Slemon

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2017, 03:55:17 PM »
You brought up chromosomes, and asked me if I knew my own. Yes, I do. I was not born with an intersex condition, I have a normally functioning sexual anatomy meaning I am not infertile. Intersex conditions, when not noticed at birth, are often discovered during puberty or when trying to become pregnant.  Intersex is often brought up during trans debates, but the two are not the same.  Most intersex people do not feel as if they are in the wrong body.   
I'm not saying they're the same, and there are a lot of chromosomal variations that aren't so easily spotted. I'm just pointing out that the fundamental aspects like that aren't of any importance when it comes to identifying gender in any setting beyond medical.

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There's plenty of detail online about Dr Ken Zucker.
There's the matter of reliable sources; hot button issues always find people siding one way or the other. i looked up a fair few things, and there's nothing I'd call reliable from either side.
As far as Bailey goes, his was a mess. It's a clear failure at explaining anything related to trans issues (it completely ignores trans men, for example) and is founded entirely on the denial of being trans as an identity. He's a psychologist dedicated to male homosexuality, it's no surprise he views being trans through that lens, it's an inherently flawed starting point. As for the reaction, activism can get harsh, that's not really new information. It's happened with literally every movement throughout history, I don't see why that's meant to be news. Some backlash is deserved, it can go too far, that's what always happens.

The later group they studied had less data, correct? The older group would have had about 40 years worth.  I would be interested in the results of a new study of the same subjects.
Likewise. But the fact is, like I said, there isn't enough information there to justify your claims. Sometimes stats can't give a full picture, and it's clearly the case here.

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Why punish the 'true trans' people?
Tell me who they are and I won't punish them.
Why? Why is your default state to punish them?

Punish actions, not existence. Even a cis man walking down the street in a dress isn't hurting anyone, who cares? Men can wear dresses, like women can wear pants. A cis man in a dress dry humping a lamppost is an entirely different story, though.
As far as female-only zones go, at some point you have to acknowledge trans men. Either you accept their identity and they're not welcome (in which case trans women should be welcome, by the same token) or you don't accept their identity and they are welcome, in which case a cis guy can just pretend to be a trans guy, and predatory guys will find it even easier to get in.

That's the issue people take with 'radical feminists,' the narrow point of view; focusing only on certain women. Typically, white, middle+ class, cis.
Issues raised by the intersection of feminism and race don't go addressed, and behavior can be downright harmful. There's people with less money who choose sex work, and who get shamed or have their only means of income taken away rather then regulated and turned into a healthier industry. And of course trans women who're just viewed as collateral damage, or as just men in dresses, neither of which is accurate.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What does politically correct mean?
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2017, 04:36:41 PM »
Why is your default state to put the wants of transwomen ahead of the safety women and girls?  Also, transmen are female, they are welcome in female only spaces. I don't care how they identify, this doesn't stop them from being raped, this doesn't stop them from needing safe shelter. They are safer in female only spaces for the same reason all women are.  Guys already pretend to be trans and get into female only spaces (that story about the transwoman exposing himself to 10yr old girls in a sauna actually happened).

Of course a man can walk down the street wearing a dress. This isn't a problem. It's when he thinks the dress gives him the right to access  female segregated spaces that a problem occurs. (I'm not against gender neutral public toilets, as long as there are options and privacy)

Your view of radical feminism is based on neoliberal bullshit. Radical feminism focuses on all women.  It probably makes you feel better to ignore black radfems, and exited radfems, but you would learn a lot if you paid attention to them.  Radfems do not shame prostituted women, that is what the sex trade profiteers want you to believe. Radfems do not ignore the added racism that WOC face.  Transwomen aren't "collateral damage", they're just not female. Feminism is for females, at least radical feminism is. Liberal feminism wants to be all things for all people, making it for nothing. There's nothing wrong with having specific goals in a movement, some people will naturally be excluded. You should read what some of those evil TERFs have to say, before judging them.


(I am constantly surprised by the fact that trans apologists gloss over the nature of the attacks against Bailey's children. Someday someone will have to explain to me why they think it's okay)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 04:38:45 PM by Space Cowgirl »
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.