Air Pressure vs Gravity

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #840 on: January 11, 2017, 12:03:27 AM »

You haven't so much explained as simply stated it.  I'm no scientist or genius but I do have above average intelligence.  I really don't think you have explained that well.  The questions I'm asking are based on your explanation.  I am truly trying to understand.
It doesn't appear like you're trying to understand. It appears that you're just waving everything away and going right back to your indoctrination level, as well as sort of showing your internet, likewise peers that you're some kind of scepti destroyer or something.

Either appear to want to understand or just stay out of it.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #841 on: January 11, 2017, 12:21:17 AM »

You haven't so much explained as simply stated it.  I'm no scientist or genius but I do have above average intelligence.  I really don't think you have explained that well.  The questions I'm asking are based on your explanation.  I am truly trying to understand.
It doesn't appear like you're trying to understand. It appears that you're just waving everything away and going right back to your indoctrination level, as well as sort of showing your internet, likewise peers that you're some kind of scepti destroyer or something.

Either appear to want to understand or just stay out of it.

For indoctrination please read education.

For clarification could you point us to some reference book or science journal where you yourself learned about denpressure. Possibly it's beside your history book?

Where you ever aquatinted with the work of Boyle and his gas laws?

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #842 on: January 11, 2017, 12:29:16 AM »
What is it that is attributed to all matter?

Let's start simply, see if you can grasp this.

A ball is at rest, not moving, in the middle of a grassy field. Why is the ball at rest? What keeps the ball from moving?
It's dense mass displacing the atmosphere it is under, which is keeping it clamped to the ground.

Very good. There is a force that keeps objects planted firmly upon the ground. Since no other forces are acting upon the ball, we can say it is at rest. It will remain in its spot, unmoved, until another force acts upon it.

 Agreed?
And if it is on some scales then the reading will not vary, even if the atmospheric pressure does.
Try again.
Please prove the weight of an object varies. Complicates buying things.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #843 on: January 11, 2017, 12:39:53 AM »
For indoctrination please read education.
The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
For clarification could you point us to some reference book or science journal where you yourself learned about denpressure. Possibly it's beside your history book?
Denpressure is my theory. There are no books on it.
Where you ever aquatinted with the work of Boyle and his gas laws?
I'm not sure what aquatinted is. Is it highlighting your hair under water or something?

Would you like to tell me about Boyle's gas laws and tell me why they are in opposition to what I'm saying?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #844 on: January 11, 2017, 12:42:40 AM »
What is it that is attributed to all matter?

Let's start simply, see if you can grasp this.

A ball is at rest, not moving, in the middle of a grassy field. Why is the ball at rest? What keeps the ball from moving?
It's dense mass displacing the atmosphere it is under, which is keeping it clamped to the ground.

Very good. There is a force that keeps objects planted firmly upon the ground. Since no other forces are acting upon the ball, we can say it is at rest. It will remain in its spot, unmoved, until another force acts upon it.

 Agreed?
And if it is on some scales then the reading will not vary, even if the atmospheric pressure does.
Try again.
Please prove the weight of an object varies. Complicates buying things.
Sugar and syrup in a pan, mix it as fast as you can. Let it set for 3 whole days and then tell diabetics not to eat any of it as it's not the right thing to do.
Have an apple instead.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #845 on: January 11, 2017, 12:48:11 AM »
What is it that is attributed to all matter?

Let's start simply, see if you can grasp this.

A ball is at rest, not moving, in the middle of a grassy field. Why is the ball at rest? What keeps the ball from moving?
It's dense mass displacing the atmosphere it is under, which is keeping it clamped to the ground.

Very good. There is a force that keeps objects planted firmly upon the ground. Since no other forces are acting upon the ball, we can say it is at rest. It will remain in its spot, unmoved, until another force acts upon it.

 Agreed?
And if it is on some scales then the reading will not vary, even if the atmospheric pressure does.
Try again.
Please prove the weight of an object varies. Complicates buying things.
Sugar and syrup in a pan, mix it as fast as you can. Let it set for 3 whole days and then tell diabetics not to eat any of it as it's not the right thing to do.
Have an apple instead.
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #846 on: January 11, 2017, 12:57:20 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #847 on: January 11, 2017, 12:58:43 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.
Please provide measured data.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #848 on: January 11, 2017, 01:02:36 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.
Please provide measured data.
Nope.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #849 on: January 11, 2017, 01:06:42 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.
Please provide measured data.
Nope.
Therefore you cannot prove your statement.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #850 on: January 11, 2017, 01:09:54 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.
Please provide measured data.
Nope.
Therefore you cannot prove your statement.
So therefore you have no more need to interact with me, right?

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #851 on: January 11, 2017, 02:00:04 AM »
Therefore you concede that denpressure is nonsense.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #852 on: January 11, 2017, 04:32:42 AM »

You haven't so much explained as simply stated it.  I'm no scientist or genius but I do have above average intelligence.  I really don't think you have explained that well.  The questions I'm asking are based on your explanation.  I am truly trying to understand.
It doesn't appear like you're trying to understand. It appears that you're just waving everything away and going right back to your indoctrination level, as well as sort of showing your internet, likewise peers that you're some kind of scepti destroyer or something.

Either appear to want to understand or just stay out of it.
Clearly you have not explained your ideas well.  I'm not seeing anyone else being able to follow your theory either.  I am trying to understand it and you calling everyone who questions you indoctrinated isn't helping. 
You say it's atmospheric pressure that pushes things down but in an environment of extremely low pressure things are still pushed down at the same rate.  On the surface of it this seems to make no sense.  You then say it's stacking that causes that, but, and perhaps I've missed it, but you have not really explained why this stacking happens.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #853 on: January 11, 2017, 06:12:25 AM »
Therefore you concede that denpressure is nonsense.
Denpressure is valid. What you think of it, is irrelevant to me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #854 on: January 11, 2017, 06:14:17 AM »

You haven't so much explained as simply stated it.  I'm no scientist or genius but I do have above average intelligence.  I really don't think you have explained that well.  The questions I'm asking are based on your explanation.  I am truly trying to understand.
It doesn't appear like you're trying to understand. It appears that you're just waving everything away and going right back to your indoctrination level, as well as sort of showing your internet, likewise peers that you're some kind of scepti destroyer or something.

Either appear to want to understand or just stay out of it.
Clearly you have not explained your ideas well.  I'm not seeing anyone else being able to follow your theory either.  I am trying to understand it and you calling everyone who questions you indoctrinated isn't helping. 
You say it's atmospheric pressure that pushes things down but in an environment of extremely low pressure things are still pushed down at the same rate.  On the surface of it this seems to make no sense.  You then say it's stacking that causes that, but, and perhaps I've missed it, but you have not really explained why this stacking happens.
I've explained everything needed. You not wanting to grasp it or not having the ability to, is your problem.

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markjo

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #855 on: January 11, 2017, 06:37:36 AM »
Up your game, markjo.
Inertia has not been proved and nobody knows what it is. The same goes with gravity.
No amount of foot stamping will change that.

How about explaining the reality of what they are instead of side stepping.

How about you explain what's being demonstrated in this video if not inertia?

Can you tell me what part is the inertia?
The parts where the objects at rest stay at rest and the objects in motion stay in motion.
Yes, for the sake of harmony I'm going along with the 'at rest' part and accepting of it as an abstract idea as was pointed out.
Wow!!  Could it be that we're making some progress here?  :o :o


As for staying in motion. This cannot happen unless there is a constant force applied, always to keep something in constant motion.
You can't just push something in any environment and believe it will carry on with that same speed. It can never happen no matter how dressed up it becomes.
I take it that you're unfamiliar with the concept of coasting? ::)

When you kick a ball, you briefly apply an external force to the ball and the ball starts to move.  The ball will keep moving until friction (another external force) slows and eventually stops ball.  If you have less and less friction, then the ball will take longer and longer to stop until you finally arrive at a hypothetical situation where there is zero friction and the ball keeps going forever.

That the ball does not stop the instant that the ball leaves your foot is an example of property that we (well, most of us) call inertia.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #856 on: January 11, 2017, 06:48:50 AM »

Wow!!  Could it be that we're making some progress here?  :o :o
Not so fast. I'm trying to cut you some slack.


I take it that you're unfamiliar with the concept of coasting? ::)
How about you explain it to me in the form where you think it's relevant to what's being talked about.

When you kick a ball, you briefly apply an external force to the ball and the ball starts to move.  The ball will keep moving until friction (another external force) slows and eventually stops ball.  If you have less and less friction, then the ball will take longer and longer to stop until you finally arrive at a hypothetical situation where there is zero friction and the ball keeps going forever.
Yes you can arrive at a hypothetical situation but that's all it will ever be.
In this case, it's definitely all it will ever be because no object is going to move at a constant rate, forever.
That the ball does not stop the instant that the ball leaves your foot is an example of property that we (well, most of us) call inertia.
So, for the ball to be judged by the word, inertia, it has to keep on travelling forever once kicked. Is this what you're saying?

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #857 on: January 11, 2017, 06:52:19 AM »
The problem is Sceptimatic cannot (or will not) separate a real world problem from a theoretical one. In the theoretical problems we can strip out and isolate individual forces and run the thought experiment on them. Scepti clings onto the fact that there is always friction and drag present in a real world example.

What he is not realising is that friction and drag are simply types of force acting on an object and that they are generally proportional to the velocity of the object through the medium it is present in. In a theoretical example we would remove friction and drag.

It is very reminiscent of the thinking of the ancient greeks before the concepts of friction and drag were identified and isolated.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #858 on: January 11, 2017, 07:01:18 AM »
The problem is Sceptimatic cannot (or will not) separate a real world problem from a theoretical one. In the theoretical problems we can strip out and isolate individual forces and run the thought experiment on them. Scepti clings onto the fact that there is always friction and drag present in a real world example.

What he is not realising is that friction and drag are simply types of force acting on an object and that they are generally proportional to the velocity of the object through the medium it is present in. In a theoretical example we would remove friction and drag.

It is very reminiscent of the thinking of the ancient greeks before the concepts of friction and drag were identified and isolated.
Yeah, you take away the friction and drag and the object now has inertia. Ok fair enough. So what the hell does it mean in real life?


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Kami

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #859 on: January 11, 2017, 07:05:55 AM »
Okay, scepti, could you please explain to me the following:

I have (personally) used a machine, for simplicity let us call that machine a vacuum chamber.

When I put an air balloon in it and turn it on, the balloon expands.
When I put a marshmellow inside, it expands.
When I put water in it, it begins to boil, when I take it out it is still cold.

These oberservations are only explainable (to me) the following way: The vacuum chamber sucks the air out and creates an environment of low pressure.

Now I hang a block of iron on a spring, when I turn the machine on nothing changes. I conclude that the weight of the iron block did not change.

Where am I wrong?

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markjo

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #860 on: January 11, 2017, 07:06:16 AM »
When you kick a ball, you briefly apply an external force to the ball and the ball starts to move.  The ball will keep moving until friction (another external force) slows and eventually stops ball.  If you have less and less friction, then the ball will take longer and longer to stop until you finally arrive at a hypothetical situation where there is zero friction and the ball keeps going forever.
Yes you can arrive at a hypothetical situation but that's all it will ever be.
In this case, it's definitely all it will ever be because no object is going to move at a constant rate, forever.
Yes, that's why I specifically used the word "hypothetical". ::)

That the ball does not stop the instant that the ball leaves your foot is an example of property that we (well, most of us) call inertia.
So, for the ball to be judged by the word, inertia, it has to keep on travelling forever once kicked. Is this what you're saying?
*sigh*  No, that is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that property of the ball moving until friction (an external force) slows and eventually stops it is called inertia.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #861 on: January 11, 2017, 08:36:28 AM »
Okay, scepti, could you please explain to me the following:

I have (personally) used a machine, for simplicity let us call that machine a vacuum chamber.
When I put an air balloon in it and turn it on, the balloon expands.
It expands because the pressure is being allowed to release by a lower pressure pathway opening up for them to expand into.
The pump provides this by compressing the atmosphere externally to the chamber.
When I put a marshmellow inside, it expands.
It expands because the air pockets inside the marshmallow are less dense. Basically they (as above) can expand because they're allowed to by their own decompression.

When I put water in it, it begins to boil, when I take it out it is still cold.
That's because it wasn't hot in the first place. It expanded due to low pressure being created (as above) and appeared to boil but was simply expanding the molecules to such a low pressure that they hardly agitated in a dense motion due to the expansion of those molecules.
It's a cold bubbling not a hot boil.

These oberservations are only explainable (to me) the following way: The vacuum chamber sucks the air out and creates an environment of low pressure.
No air gets sucked out, ever.
The atmosphere inside the chamber expands out of the chamber by the aid of a pump that pushes external atmosphere away from the opening of that chamber to allow out the molecules through natural expansion from their compressed state.

Now I hang a block of iron on a spring, when I turn the machine on nothing changes. I conclude that the weight of the iron block did not change.
You can only check this by putting in a set of scales and testing this out but you have to also be mindful of what is really going on, as in you place the scales inside the chamber that are calibrated in sea level (possibly) atmospheric pressure. You now allow release  by expansion of molecules out of the chamber which includes those that are part of the calibration of the scales.
The same goes for the iron but you cannot visually see the change.
You can see it with a balloon or a marshmallow, etc but iron is much more densely compacted.

Where am I wrong?
Where do you think you could be wrong?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #862 on: January 11, 2017, 08:44:31 AM »

*sigh*  No, that is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that property of the ball moving until friction (an external force) slows and eventually stops it is called inertia.
So friction is inertia?

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #863 on: January 11, 2017, 09:06:23 AM »


You are correct! At the molecular level, the particles that make up the ball are vibrating. In a very literal sense, nothing can ever truly be fully "at rest," unless it has achieved absolute zero. For the purposes of explaining inertia, however, let us assume the ball is at rest.

This means, as Copper Knickers astutely pointed out, that zero net forces are acting upon the ball. The downward push of air pressure is equally met by the ground, leaving the ball with zero net forces.

In order to move the ball, some other force needs to be exerted upon it. Let's say a little boy runs up and kicks the ball as hard as he can. What happens now?
Ok, on a serious note, the ball would move.

OK, so we have established the first part of the law, "objects at rest will remain at rest until an outside force acts upon it," and you agree that this is what happens in reality.

Now let's move on to the more complicated bit.

The boy has kicked the ball. You say the ball will move. What determines how far the ball will move?

What determines when the ball will stop?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #864 on: January 11, 2017, 09:16:22 AM »
OK, so we have established the first part of the law, "objects at rest will remain at rest until an outside force acts upon it," and you agree that this is what happens in reality.
No I don't agree. I said I'll agree that we can visually perceive this to be the case for the sake of harmony.
The reality is entirely different, as you know.

But anyway.
Now let's move on to the more complicated bit.

The boy has kicked the ball. You say the ball will move. What determines how far the ball will move?
The energy force behind the kick to the ball.
What determines when the ball will stop?
The friction/resistance acting on the ball from the atmosphere. And the solid ground friction of course, which is the effect of atmospheric push/squeeze/friction upon it.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #865 on: January 11, 2017, 09:27:48 AM »
OK so now we agree that there are many force vectors at play here.

First, we have the initial push from the boy kicking the ball.

Now, from the very moment the ball is kicked, the ball is under constant friction from the surrounding atmosphere. This atmospheric friction slows the ball down, forcing it back into the ground. The ball experiences even more friction once it bounces. Each subsequent bounce will exhibit less energy until the ball finally rolls to a stop.

So now that we have established some variables, what happens if the boy and his ball are on a field with an altitude 1000m above the previous field.

With reduced atmospheric pressure, how will that affect how far the ball will travel?

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #866 on: January 11, 2017, 11:14:03 AM »

You haven't so much explained as simply stated it.  I'm no scientist or genius but I do have above average intelligence.  I really don't think you have explained that well.  The questions I'm asking are based on your explanation.  I am truly trying to understand.
It doesn't appear like you're trying to understand. It appears that you're just waving everything away and going right back to your indoctrination level, as well as sort of showing your internet, likewise peers that you're some kind of scepti destroyer or something.

Either appear to want to understand or just stay out of it.
Clearly you have not explained your ideas well.  I'm not seeing anyone else being able to follow your theory either.  I am trying to understand it and you calling everyone who questions you indoctrinated isn't helping. 
You say it's atmospheric pressure that pushes things down but in an environment of extremely low pressure things are still pushed down at the same rate.  On the surface of it this seems to make no sense.  You then say it's stacking that causes that, but, and perhaps I've missed it, but you have not really explained why this stacking happens.
I've explained everything needed. You not wanting to grasp it or not having the ability to, is your problem.
I do want to, and I'm sure I have the ability.  You have lacked in your explaination.  How does stacking happen in such a way as to create a down?  I can understand how a force,  such as gravity could do it. I can't see how pressure would, or why it would push in one direction, or why weight doesn't change depending on said pressure.

Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #867 on: January 11, 2017, 11:17:09 AM »
Progress, you agree atmospheric pressure has no affect on the weight of an object.
Totally disagree.
Can you demonstrate that?  I would think it would be fairly easy.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #868 on: January 11, 2017, 11:48:52 AM »
OK so now we agree that there are many force vectors at play here.

First, we have the initial push from the boy kicking the ball.

Now, from the very moment the ball is kicked, the ball is under constant friction from the surrounding atmosphere. This atmospheric friction slows the ball down, forcing it back into the ground. The ball experiences even more friction once it bounces. Each subsequent bounce will exhibit less energy until the ball finally rolls to a stop.

So now that we have established some variables, what happens if the boy and his ball are on a field with an altitude 1000m above the previous field.

With reduced atmospheric pressure, how will that affect how far the ball will travel?
Assuming the boy could kick the ball with the same amount of force as he did the first time around the ball pressure was as equal as it was 1000m lower, then I would think the ball, would travel quite a bit further.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air Pressure vs Gravity
« Reply #869 on: January 11, 2017, 11:51:14 AM »

I do want to, and I'm sure I have the ability.  You have lacked in your explaination.  How does stacking happen in such a way as to create a down?  I can understand how a force,  such as gravity could do it. I can't see how pressure would, or why it would push in one direction, or why weight doesn't change depending on said pressure.
Ok then let's see how you fare.
Let's start with your understanding of gravity and how it creates a down that you clearly understand and also makes perfect sense.

Do this and let's see where we get to from this point on.