Air Pressure vs Gravity

Zero-G parabolic flights are a great example of weightlessness. These are conducted inside a pressurized airplane. No amount of density, pressure, atmosphere, can account for this.
I'd like you to explain this one using your Denspressure analogy, I'm sure several others would be interested as well?
And these flights do exist. Come up with the cash and you can experience it yourself.
Your thoughts, Scepti?

Zero-G parabolic flights are a great example of weightlessness. These are conducted inside a pressurized airplane. No amount of density, pressure, atmosphere, can account for this.
I'd like you to explain this one using your Denspressure analogy, I'm sure several others would be interested as well?
And these flights do exist. Come up with the cash and you can experience it yourself.
Your thoughts, Scepti?

You do realise that your zero g plane is just a plane that falls faster than the person in it, right?
What does that prove about your gravity clap trap?

Quote from: IonSpen on December 14, 2016, 09:06:35 AM

Zero-G parabolic flights are a great example of weightlessness. These are conducted inside a pressurized airplane. No amount of density, pressure, atmosphere, can account for this.
I'd like you to explain this one using your Denspressure analogy, I'm sure several others would be interested as well?
And these flights do exist. Come up with the cash and you can experience it yourself.
Your thoughts, Scepti?

You do realise that your zero g plane is just a plane that falls faster than the person in it, right?
What does that prove about your gravity clap trap?

It proves that gravity has nothing to do with air pressure.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2016, 09:44:35 AM

Quote from: IonSpen on December 14, 2016, 09:06:35 AM

Zero-G parabolic flights are a great example of weightlessness. These are conducted inside a pressurized airplane. No amount of density, pressure, atmosphere, can account for this.
I'd like you to explain this one using your Denspressure analogy, I'm sure several others would be interested as well?
And these flights do exist. Come up with the cash and you can experience it yourself.
Your thoughts, Scepti?

You do realise that your zero g plane is just a plane that falls faster than the person in it, right?
What does that prove about your gravity clap trap?

It proves that gravity has nothing to do with air pressure.

Exactly. I've been telling you this for long enough but you people believe gravity exists for some strange reason, after being shown and explained to.

I'm glad you accept that atmospheric pressure is the reason for everything happening under this Earth dome.
No gravity. No g-force. No gravimeters. No gravitons.

It's all atmospheric pressure upon any dense matter/object.
The saddest part is the acceptance of a force that is told to be gravity that people cannot explain and yet scientists, or supposed scientists, tell people it's the truth, so it becomes official regardless of the FACT that it CANNOT be explained as to what the hell it actually is.

It's clever in the fact that it attempts to cover up the reality (atmospheric pressure) but those who have had the chance to actually understand the dupe, have no excuse for referring to it as a reality.

The people inside the plane and the plane itself are both falling at the same rate. I mean, they were both flying (moving) at the same rate before the parabola, correct? And at that altitude, the plane is pressurized to a much higher psi than the air pressure outside the plane, correct? In fact, wouldn't you say the air pressure inside the airplane would be the same as the air pressure inside the submarine we discussed? Yet they float in the plane. The pressurized plane.

The people inside the plane and the plane itself are both falling at the same rate. I mean, they were both flying (moving) at the same rate before the parabola, correct? And at that altitude, the plane is pressurized to a much higher psi than the air pressure outside the plane, correct? In fact, wouldn't you say the air pressure inside the airplane would be the same as the air pressure inside the submarine we discussed? Yet they float in the plane. The pressurized plane.

All you are doing is sky diving in a sealed unit (plane).
Oh and a submarine isn't dropping like a stone for anyone to appear to float.

Scepti, let me see if I understand what you're saying here.  There is a dome covering a flat earth, and sealed inside that dome, among other things, is our air.  It is the pressure from this air that is holding us to the ground.
I know that's probably a little simplified but does that about sum it up?

I can't prove gravity; nobody can prove or disprove it.

Well, this says alot. You keep asking sceptimatic to prove his model works when you cant even do the same for yours. Hypocrisy, says I!

But why does the plane fall?  Why does anything fall?  Why should air pressure be greater at the bottom of a mass of air unless something is pushing the air down? 

Sceptimatic, all of your arguments seem to compose a more or less correct accounting of what air pressure is, but all explanations of why things tend to fall down instead of any other direction seem to boil down to "things just fall down because they do".

Air pressure, even as you describe it, doesn't work without gravity.  You can take the "down-fallingness" of objects as axiomatic if you like, or call it anything other than gravity.  But that phenomenon exists independent of air pressure and plays a fundamental role in making air pressure work how it does.

But why does the plane fall?  Why does anything fall?  Why should air pressure be greater at the bottom of a mass of air unless something is pushing the air down? 

See he already answered that, but you continue to ask the same questions... Why? Read the thread!!! Not but a few posts ago sokarul stated that gravity is independent of air pressure and here you are claiming they are intertwined!

Quote from: IonSpen on December 14, 2016, 10:36:21 AM

The people inside the plane and the plane itself are both falling at the same rate. I mean, they were both flying (moving) at the same rate before the parabola, correct? And at that altitude, the plane is pressurized to a much higher psi than the air pressure outside the plane, correct? In fact, wouldn't you say the air pressure inside the airplane would be the same as the air pressure inside the submarine we discussed? Yet they float in the plane. The pressurized plane.

All you are doing is sky diving in a sealed unit (plane).
Oh and a submarine isn't dropping like a stone for anyone to appear to float.

The people in the sub and the people on the plane in normal flight are still held down. You claim it's the pressure that keeps them down, inside a sealed unit. So if you're sitting in your seat on the plane, you claim pressure is holding you down. But when the plane enters its parabola, you float up out of your seat inside the pressurized plane. What force is now taking over? Why are you not held to your seat by the very pressure that was holding you before? No, you're not skydiving, you haven't left the pressurized plane. So what if you're falling, what are you falling from? What is this new external force overcoming pressure?

Fact: Higher pressure doesn't lead to more weight.
Fact: Lower pressure doesn't lead to less weight.

So how is denpressure the truth?

Fact: Gravity cannot be proven
Fact: Gravity contradicts itself.

So how is gravity truth?

What did Cavendish measure?

Learn the difference between proof and evidence.

There is plenty of evidence for gravity.

The simplest way to see gravity work is drop two different object and watch them fall at the same rate. Gravitational lensing and gravitational red shifting is more complex ways to see gravity.

Gravity does not contradict itself.

Quote from: markjo on December 14, 2016, 10:05:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2016, 09:44:35 AM

Quote from: IonSpen on December 14, 2016, 09:06:35 AM

Zero-G parabolic flights are a great example of weightlessness. These are conducted inside a pressurized airplane. No amount of density, pressure, atmosphere, can account for this.
I'd like you to explain this one using your Denspressure analogy, I'm sure several others would be interested as well?
And these flights do exist. Come up with the cash and you can experience it yourself.
Your thoughts, Scepti?

You do realise that your zero g plane is just a plane that falls faster than the person in it, right?
What does that prove about your gravity clap trap?

It proves that gravity has nothing to do with air pressure.

Exactly. I've been telling you this for long enough but you people believe gravity exists for some strange reason, after being shown and explained to.

I'm glad you accept that atmospheric pressure is the reason for everything happening under this Earth dome.
No gravity. No g-force. No gravimeters. No gravitons.

Ummm....  That isn't what I said.  No matter how you stack it, air pressure has no preferred direction of action like gravity does.

The saddest part is the acceptance of a force that is told to be gravity that people cannot explain and yet scientists, or supposed scientists, tell people it's the truth, so it becomes official regardless of the FACT that it CANNOT be explained as to what the hell it actually is.

There are several very complicated explanations for gravity (General Relativity, Quantum Gravity, etc.).  Just because you can't understand them doesn't mean that they aren't there.

It's clever in the fact that it attempts to cover up the reality (atmospheric pressure) but those who have had the chance to actually understand the dupe, have no excuse for referring to it as a reality.

Atmospheric pressure is very real, it just doesn't do everything that you think it does.  The simple fact of the matter is that the weight of objects don't change when atmospheric pressure changes.  No amount of atmospheric stacking can change that reality.  Psychoactive drugs are a different story (after all, reality is for people who can't handle drugs).

Quote from: deadsirius on December 14, 2016, 11:19:21 AM

But why does the plane fall?  Why does anything fall?  Why should air pressure be greater at the bottom of a mass of air unless something is pushing the air down? 

See he already answered that, but you continue to ask the same questions... Why? Read the thread!!! Not but a few posts ago sokarul stated that gravity is independent of air pressure and here you are claiming they are intertwined!

The question of why things fall down has not ever been answered by this topic.  At least not beyond saying "they just do".

I also said gravity is independent of air pressure--in fact, in those exact words:

Air pressure, even as you describe it, doesn't work without gravity.  You can take the "down-fallingness" of objects as axiomatic if you like, or call it anything other than gravity.  But that phenomenon exists independent of air pressure and plays a fundamental role in making air pressure work how it does.

They are not "intertwined"--gravity works the same regardless of air pressure.  The reverse is not true.

Quote from: RocksEverywhere on December 14, 2016, 08:34:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2016, 06:08:45 AM

Quote from: RocksEverywhere on December 14, 2016, 04:14:57 AM

I'm going to try to explain it a bit more clearly.

If I understand your idea correctly, it means that we're stuck to this earth due to a downward buoyancy-like force caused by the atmosphere. Right?
That would mean that if we were to make a chamber and seal it off entirely, and then lower the pressure by removing air from inside the chamber, this downward buoyancy should decrease, approaching the point where there is no force pulling any object inside the chamber down. Which is what I mean with weightlessness.

Not to mention that regular buoyancy is the result of gravity, so I'm curious how you think the atmosphere exerts pressure on us.

What is weightlessness to you?
This might seem like a silly question but trust me it's pertinent.
Just tell me what weightlessness is to you and how you can understand it in a physical sense.
As for your regular buoyancy being the result of gravity. Prove to me that gravity is a force.
The more you hang on to this the more you lose the chance of actually grasping the  fact, at least, of gravity being a massive con job. Which also means you'll never understand what I'm telling you. Assuming you do, which I'm sceptical about.

Weightlessness = not being affected by the downward-pulling force/acceleration that is usually exerted on us, i.e. keeps us on the ground.

I can't prove gravity; nobody can prove or disprove it, all we can do is present evidence that it may be true. For example, correlations have been made between density of the earth's crust and gravity anomalies: gravity is stronger where the rocks under your feet have a higher density. Gravity also explains the orbits in space of for example planets around suns or moons around planets or rings around planets, which are all observable.

In the end, there is a downward acceleration that does not lower in a chamber with an artificially lowered pressure.

What is weightlessness to you?

Are you just going to ignore all the points I made?

Air pressure, even as you describe it, doesn't work without gravity.

Unless you are trying to confuse people why would you say that?

Quote from: deadsirius on December 14, 2016, 11:19:21 AM

Air pressure, even as you describe it, doesn't work without gravity.

Unless you are trying to confuse people why would you say that?

I'm not sure you've quite got you name right...from where I'm standing you look more like
A real little piece of shit, with a head devoid of anything that comes close to a brain.
So you like abuse? or would you rather debate the topic you little shit sucker?

It's up to you....

I would like to discuss the topic, thats why I asked you a question. But all I hear is ... "you're a shit for brains little shit sucker"... lol A common rebuttal for someone with no other response!

Quote from: deadsirius on December 14, 2016, 11:19:21 AM

Air pressure, even as you describe it, doesn't work without gravity.

Unless you are trying to confuse people why would you say that?

Sorry, I should have said "atmospheric pressure"...or just "air pressure on the surface of the earth".  But the point remains.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2016, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: RocksEverywhere on December 14, 2016, 08:34:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2016, 06:08:45 AM

Quote from: RocksEverywhere on December 14, 2016, 04:14:57 AM

I'm going to try to explain it a bit more clearly.

If I understand your idea correctly, it means that we're stuck to this earth due to a downward buoyancy-like force caused by the atmosphere. Right?
That would mean that if we were to make a chamber and seal it off entirely, and then lower the pressure by removing air from inside the chamber, this downward buoyancy should decrease, approaching the point where there is no force pulling any object inside the chamber down. Which is what I mean with weightlessness.

Not to mention that regular buoyancy is the result of gravity, so I'm curious how you think the atmosphere exerts pressure on us.

What is weightlessness to you?
This might seem like a silly question but trust me it's pertinent.
Just tell me what weightlessness is to you and how you can understand it in a physical sense.
As for your regular buoyancy being the result of gravity. Prove to me that gravity is a force.
The more you hang on to this the more you lose the chance of actually grasping the  fact, at least, of gravity being a massive con job. Which also means you'll never understand what I'm telling you. Assuming you do, which I'm sceptical about.

Weightlessness = not being affected by the downward-pulling force/acceleration that is usually exerted on us, i.e. keeps us on the ground.

I can't prove gravity; nobody can prove or disprove it, all we can do is present evidence that it may be true. For example, correlations have been made between density of the earth's crust and gravity anomalies: gravity is stronger where the rocks under your feet have a higher density. Gravity also explains the orbits in space of for example planets around suns or moons around planets or rings around planets, which are all observable.

In the end, there is a downward acceleration that does not lower in a chamber with an artificially lowered pressure.

What is weightlessness to you?

Are you just going to ignore all the points I made?

Yes, he will. 

He will just keep asking questions that crudely attempt to lead you down his garden path.  When you won't follow him down it he'll throw a tantrum and call everyone 'brainwashed' and any scientific theory 'bullshit'.  Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Occasionally he'll throw in another tortuous and broken analogy.

The last thread about this lasted 70 pages.  I believe there are earlier ones that rambled on longer.

Part of the problem is too many people are asking him questions, and I'm sure he's swamped. In his defense it does take a lot of time to answer everyone. That being said, I often see exactly what Jimmy has described above.

I'll reiterate a point someone made earlier. The moon has next to no atmosphere, so how can it have denspressure?

Weightlessness = not being affected by the downward-pulling force/acceleration that is usually exerted on us, i.e. keeps us on the ground.

By this definition, weightlessness is impossible. Even when the astronots went to the moon, they were still under the effect of earth "downward pulling force". Don't you see why sceptimatic gets fed up? I am as well.

Weightlessness = not being affected by the downward-pulling force/acceleration that is usually exerted on us, i.e. keeps us on the ground.

By this definition, weightlessness is impossible. Even when the astronots went to the moon, they were still under the effect of earth "downward pulling force". Don't you see why sceptimatic gets fed up? I am as well.

That definition of weightlessness isn't technically correct, it is more like not having a normal force acting upon you.

The reason that isn't correct is because while falling, you are weightless but still under gravitational acceleration.

By this definition, weightlessness is impossible. Even when the astronots went to the moon, they were still under the effect of earth "downward pulling force". Don't you see why sceptimatic gets fed up? I am as well.

Go, learn a bit of physics.
When the astronauts are in "free fall" (no rockets firing) they are in zero-gravity. Anything in true "free-fall" is under zero-gravity conditions.

Now, if you want to get real pernickity about it.
Under conditions where the gravitational or other forces vary over the dimensions of the object there are "tidal forces", that on earth cause the, wait for it, tides.
But over the dimensions of a space craft, tens of thousands of kilometres from any outside object, these are quite negligible.

Don't you see why we get so fed up with you and sceptimatic?

I guess we already have "Sandokhanian Physics", why not "Sceptimatical Physics", so we know what  rules to apply in each case,
 because "Real Physics", "Sandokhanian Physics" and "Sceptimatical Physics" are most certainly mutually exclusive.

I'll reiterate a point someone made earlier. The moon has next to no atmosphere, so how can it have denspressure?

Don't ask. According to Scepti, the moon, stars, and sun are all merely reflections off of the dome.

Where do these projections originate from?

Apparently there is a gigantic graphite arc lamp at the North Pole. It is shining through a rotating prism that separates this light into the lights we observe every day.

Makes perfect sense!

Quote from: Arealhumanbeing on December 14, 2016, 03:18:54 PM

Weightlessness = not being affected by the downward-pulling force/acceleration that is usually exerted on us, i.e. keeps us on the ground.

By this definition, weightlessness is impossible. Even when the astronots went to the moon, they were still under the effect of earth "downward pulling force". Don't you see why sceptimatic gets fed up? I am as well.

That definition of weightlessness isn't technically correct, it is more like not having a normal force acting upon you.

Since all mass has its own gravitational field, technically the best you can do is what's called a microgravity environment.

However, this microgravity (like a vacuum chamber) is generally so small that it can be safely ignored for all but the most sensitive observations.  That's why it's commonly referred to as weightlessness or zero gravity.

The reason that isn't correct is because while falling, you are weightless but still under gravitational acceleration.

That depends on whether you're referring to proper acceleration or coordinate acceleration. 

In relativity theory, proper acceleration is the physical acceleration (i.e., measurable acceleration as by an accelerometer) experienced by an object. It is thus acceleration relative to a free-fall, or inertial, observer who is momentarily at rest relative to the object being measured. Gravitation therefore does not cause proper acceleration, since gravity acts upon the inertial observer that any proper acceleration must depart from (accelerate from). A corollary is that all inertial observers always have a proper acceleration of zero.