Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships

  • 110 Replies
  • 14357 Views
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2016, 05:08:00 PM »
No, you didn't explain what keeps things down in a sub, or why they fall. The air pressure in the sub is exerted outward equally, in all directions. Yet objects fall down. Not up, not sideways, but down. The air is pushing up, sideways, and down, every direction.
Say the sub was resting at 90° perpendicular to where it was before. Drop a ball. Which way does it fall? Toward the ocean floor. Yet air pressure is exerted equally in every direction. Now turn that sub 90° further, now it's upside down. Drop a ball. Where does it fall? Do you see where your denspressure fails to answer this?
Your second analogy about the bathtub doesn't appear out of the ordinary. Install a U shaped pipe onto the drain leading up. The water will only drain out to where it's level with the tub. Atmosphere isn't gonna push any more. Why?

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2016, 05:40:02 PM »
As you bring up planes, what about sky-divers?

They fall from a plane.
What then causes them to accelerate towards Earth?
It can't be air pressure, because they get pushed up more than down by that.
In fact, the air pressure is exactly what stops them continually speeding up.

So how come they aren't accelerated upwards and fly off Earth?

If you somehow magic your way around that, what about when they pull their shoot?

That increases their area. That should mean they get pushed more by the atmosphere (which explains why they slow down when it is pulled, but not in your fantasy land).
So how come they slow down rather than speed up due to the increased force?

The same applies for objects of different densities.

If you take 2 objects of different densities, such that they are the same size and shape, the area will be the same. As such, the force exerted on them by the atmosphere will be the same.
So why do they fall at the same rate?
Why doesn't aluminium accelerate 3 times faster than iron, as the same volume of iron has 3 times the mass.

What about in a vacuum?
What keeps things down then?

If you are going to appeal to there still being a bit of air, that would help, but it doesn't explain it, as that would cause things to fall a lot slower. Instead, things fall in a vacuum almost just like outside, with the exception of things with a large area.
In fact, things fall faster in a vacuum, the exact opposite of what would be expected if air pressure was the cause.


So no, air pressure makes no sense at causing things to fall.
Hence why you need to resort to magic.
Magic somehow causes air-pressure to force things down, accelerating them at the same rate regardless of their mass, and magically still working in a vacuum, and it just magically know which was is down to accelerate them.

Yet you have the nerve to say RE relies upon magic and makes no sense?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2016, 12:14:34 AM »
But why does it push up/down?
It doesn't exactly push up or down in the sense you think. It squeezes up or down. Anything that cannot be squeezed up will be squeezed down, which is why your feet are firmly on the floor. Anything that can be squeezed up will be taken off the floor and raised into the atmosphere.
This is exactly the same for water.


Why doesn't the air push things up?
It squeezes things up. A helium balloon as an example.

Why does a sub sink, but a ping-pong ball float?
Because the ping pong ball is mainly air and thin membrane.
This thin membrane cannot be squeezed into dense water when it is basically mostly air anyway, so the water easily squeezes back against it so much so that it is left almost fully on the very top of the water.

A submarine is made if a heavy compact metal skin and skeleton that creates a massive resistance against atmospheric pressure. This thick skin and skeleton, etc, push atmosphere away and compress it, only for the atmosphere to compress right back (squeeze). This pushes (squeezes) the sub as far down into the water until it equalises it's external pressure with the water pressure and is buoyant.
It will stay buoyant and out of the water until the atmosphere can push down on the water to squeeze more air out.
Remember the plug hole and plug.
Think of the ballast tanks being the bath tub. Think about this because it will help.


*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2016, 12:33:36 AM »
No, you didn't explain what keeps things down in a sub, or why they fall. The air pressure in the sub is exerted outward equally, in all directions. Yet objects fall down. Not up, not sideways, but down. The air is pushing up, sideways, and down, every direction.
Say the sub was resting at 90° perpendicular to where it was before. Drop a ball. Which way does it fall? Toward the ocean floor. Yet air pressure is exerted equally in every direction. Now turn that sub 90° further, now it's upside down. Drop a ball. Where does it fall? Do you see where your denspressure fails to answer this?
Is the air pressure equal around you on land?
If you answer yes, then I can't help you.
If you answer no, then come back to me and explain why it's no and I'll answer your question.

Your second analogy about the bathtub doesn't appear out of the ordinary. Install a U shaped pipe onto the drain leading up. The water will only drain out to where it's level with the tub. Atmosphere isn't gonna push any more. Why?
You've just answered your own question with the "level with the tub."
Your major mistake is in believing that objects and water are the driving force and they are not. It's atmospheric pressure that is the driving force in keeping everything nailed down, or squeezed down or pushed against. Whichever way you want to look at it.
Once the water reaches level then the less water there is to squeeze against atmospheric pressure pushing (squeezing) hard into the U-bend.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2016, 01:36:01 AM »
As you bring up planes, what about sky-divers?

They fall from a plane.
What then causes them to accelerate towards Earth?
It can't be air pressure, because they get pushed up more than down by that.
In fact, the air pressure is exactly what stops them continually speeding up.
So how come they aren't accelerated upwards and fly off Earth?
You weren't born in the air. You are not a helium balloon. You were born on the ground. You were born as a dense person on land. This means your body has to be dense and strong to resist the atmospheric squeeze.
To enable you to get into the sky to sky dive in the first place, takes a lot of energy. Basically your mass is moving through atmosphere and where you were once stood on the ground, is now filled with atmosphere pertaining to your body mass resistance to it.
The higher you go, the same thing happens.
It's too long to explain in all the detail it really needs so I'll rely on your common sense to see what's said.
If you somehow magic your way around that, what about when they pull their shoot?
That increases their area. That should mean they get pushed more by the atmosphere (which explains why they slow down when it is pulled, but not in your fantasy land).
So how come they slow down rather than speed up due to the increased force?
Think of an elevator dropping down an open air shaft. It's displacing the air under it and pushing it around it. It's compressing that air directly beneath is floor area until that air is pushed up and around it. That compressed air fills the lower pressure left above the elevator and aids it in keeping that push.
To slow it down you block off the compressed atmosphere from hitting the atmosphere above by putting up a barrier, namely, a parachute which allows your displaced air to hit the centre part of the chute and not interact immediately with the air above that chute. It creates a greater friction below than above and unbalances the force to slow down your mass.



The same applies for objects of different densities.

If you take 2 objects of different densities, such that they are the same size and shape, the area will be the same. As such, the force exerted on them by the atmosphere will be the same.
So why do they fall at the same rate?
Why doesn't aluminium accelerate 3 times faster than iron, as the same volume of iron has 3 times the mass.
I've tried many times to answer this and only Jane ever got it.
Iron displaces more atmosphere than aluminium because it's much less porous.
The only way I can hopefully make you understand is to imagine the iron ball as being a very dense sponge ball with tiny pores.
The aluminium ball has larger pores.
Now imagine you look at the both of them with bad eye sight ( just for the sake of clarity) and you can't tell the difference but someone with good eye sight tells you that although they appear to look the same, one does have slightly bigger pores than the other.

Ok these pores are right through the sponges as we know. It also means that the pores are full of atmosphere (air/gases), only one sponge will hold more (aluminium) and one will hold much less (iron), so what we notice is, we know that one sponges make up repels more atmospheric pressure (iron) than the other (aluminium) and so will displace more atmosphere.

What about in a vacuum?
What keeps things down then?
If you are going to appeal to there still being a bit of air, that would help, but it doesn't explain it, as that would cause things to fall a lot slower. Instead, things fall in a vacuum almost just like outside, with the exception of things with a large area.
In fact, things fall faster in a vacuum, the exact opposite of what would be expected if air pressure was the cause.
There is no true vacuum on Earth as you know so we are dealing with extreme expansion of molecules or extreme low pressure compared to what we're used to.
Place a atmospherically (15psi) object into a extreme low pressure environment and you take away the resistant force that would normally friction grip that object to slow it down.
This is why a feather can fall much faster due to very little resistance.
It's like trying to get a bird to fly inside a partially evacuated chamber (if it could survive, which it couldn't). It's going to drop like a dense stone.



So no, air pressure makes no sense at causing things to fall.
Hence why you need to resort to magic.
Magic somehow causes air-pressure to force things down, accelerating them at the same rate regardless of their mass, and magically still working in a vacuum, and it just magically know which was is down to accelerate them.

Yet you have the nerve to say RE relies upon magic and makes no sense?
I can explain mine. You can't explain gravity and all the rest of the gunk, so who's relying on magic?
A clue: it isn't me.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2016, 03:01:24 AM »
But why does it push up/down?
It doesn't exactly push up or down in the sense you think. It squeezes up or down. Anything that cannot be squeezed up will be squeezed down, which is why your feet are firmly on the floor. Anything that can be squeezed up will be taken off the floor and raised into the atmosphere.
This is exactly the same for water.


Why doesn't the air push things up?
It squeezes things up. A helium balloon as an example.

Why does a sub sink, but a ping-pong ball float?
Because the ping pong ball is mainly air and thin membrane.
This thin membrane cannot be squeezed into dense water when it is basically mostly air anyway, so the water easily squeezes back against it so much so that it is left almost fully on the very top of the water.

A submarine is made if a heavy compact metal skin and skeleton that creates a massive resistance against atmospheric pressure. This thick skin and skeleton, etc, push atmosphere away and compress it, only for the atmosphere to compress right back (squeeze). This pushes (squeezes) the sub as far down into the water until it equalises it's external pressure with the water pressure and is buoyant.
It will stay buoyant and out of the water until the atmosphere can push down on the water to squeeze more air out.
Remember the plug hole and plug.
Think of the ballast tanks being the bath tub. Think about this because it will help.

So why do things squeeze up or down?
Why can some things be squeezed down but not up?

Again, in reality, it is not significantly based upon compressibility or the like, but the mass of the object.
2 objects, made of the different materials but with the same size and shape will respond differently based upon their weight, rather than their comprehensibility or strength.

Why can't a weak ping pong ball be squeezed into the water while a strong piece of steel can be?
Why can't the ping pong ball be squeezed into the air?

Why can a helium filled balloon be squeezed up, but one filled with CO2 can't?

I have thought about it and it caused me to realise it is bullshit which makes no sense.

The other obvious question is what keeps the air down?

You weren't born in the air. You are not a helium balloon. You were born on the ground. You were born as a dense person on land. This means your body has to be dense and strong to resist the atmospheric squeeze.
Who cares where I was born?
If my body can resist the atmospheric squeeze, why would it then push me down?

Think of an elevator dropping down an open air shaft. It's displacing the air under it and pushing it around it. It's compressing that air directly beneath is floor area until that air is pushed up and around it. That compressed air fills the lower pressure left above the elevator and aids it in keeping that push.
No. That means there is much more pressure below you than above you. This means you should be pushed up.
You are yet to explain why it pushes you down at all.

To slow it down you block off the compressed atmosphere from hitting the atmosphere above by putting up a barrier, namely, a parachute which allows your displaced air to hit the centre part of the chute and not interact immediately with the air above that chute. It creates a greater friction below than above and unbalances the force to slow down your mass.
And anything, even a person's body, would do that naturally. So why doesn't it slow them down?
If it was pressure, it would be based upon area, and as such, the parachute should accelerate faster.

I've tried many times to answer this and only Jane ever got it.
Iron displaces more atmosphere than aluminium because it's much less porous.
BULLSHIT!
They do not have a significant difference in their porosity.
It seems you are just making up more and more bullshit to make up for your inadequate explanation of gravity.

The only way I can hopefully make you understand is to imagine the iron ball as being a very dense sponge ball with tiny pores.
The aluminium ball has larger pores.
So by throwing reality out the window?

There is no true vacuum on Earth as you know so we are dealing with extreme expansion of molecules
No. The molecules do not expand.

Place a atmospherically (15psi) object into a extreme low pressure environment and you take away the resistant force that would normally friction grip that object to slow it down.
This is why a feather can fall much faster due to very little resistance.
It's like trying to get a bird to fly inside a partially evacuated chamber (if it could survive, which it couldn't). It's going to drop like a dense stone.
Yes. That is because gravity is pulling it down.
But your explanation is the air pressure is pushing it down. But you admit that that has significantly reduced. So what is pushing it down now?

I can explain mine. You can't explain gravity and all the rest of the gunk, so who's relying on magic?
A clue: it isn't me.
No. You can't. You resort to rejecting reality with explanations which make no sense and thus are effectively magic.
Did you notice how for my questions, instead of answering them honestly and rationally, you just spout nonsense which goes against reality, or ignore the key objection?

So you are the one relying upon magic.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2016, 03:05:06 AM »
But why does it push up/down?
It doesn't exactly push up or down in the sense you think. It squeezes up or down. Anything that cannot be squeezed up will be squeezed down, which is why your feet are firmly on the floor. Anything that can be squeezed up will be taken off the floor and raised into the atmosphere.
This is exactly the same for water.


Why doesn't the air push things up?
It squeezes things up. A helium balloon as an example.

Why does a sub sink, but a ping-pong ball float?
Because the ping pong ball is mainly air and thin membrane.
This thin membrane cannot be squeezed into dense water when it is basically mostly air anyway, so the water easily squeezes back against it so much so that it is left almost fully on the very top of the water.

A submarine is made if a heavy compact metal skin and skeleton that creates a massive resistance against atmospheric pressure. This thick skin and skeleton, etc, push atmosphere away and compress it, only for the atmosphere to compress right back (squeeze). This pushes (squeezes) the sub as far down into the water until it equalises it's external pressure with the water pressure and is buoyant.
It will stay buoyant and out of the water until the atmosphere can push down on the water to squeeze more air out.
Remember the plug hole and plug.
Think of the ballast tanks being the bath tub. Think about this because it will help.

So why do things squeeze up or down?
Why can some things be squeezed down but not up?

Again, in reality, it is not significantly based upon compressibility or the like, but the mass of the object.
2 objects, made of the different materials but with the same size and shape will respond differently based upon their weight, rather than their comprehensibility or strength.

Why can't a weak ping pong ball be squeezed into the water while a strong piece of steel can be?
Why can't the ping pong ball be squeezed into the air?

Why can a helium filled balloon be squeezed up, but one filled with CO2 can't?

I have thought about it and it caused me to realise it is bullshit which makes no sense.

The other obvious question is what keeps the air down?

You weren't born in the air. You are not a helium balloon. You were born on the ground. You were born as a dense person on land. This means your body has to be dense and strong to resist the atmospheric squeeze.
Who cares where I was born?
If my body can resist the atmospheric squeeze, why would it then push me down?

Think of an elevator dropping down an open air shaft. It's displacing the air under it and pushing it around it. It's compressing that air directly beneath is floor area until that air is pushed up and around it. That compressed air fills the lower pressure left above the elevator and aids it in keeping that push.
No. That means there is much more pressure below you than above you. This means you should be pushed up.
You are yet to explain why it pushes you down at all.

To slow it down you block off the compressed atmosphere from hitting the atmosphere above by putting up a barrier, namely, a parachute which allows your displaced air to hit the centre part of the chute and not interact immediately with the air above that chute. It creates a greater friction below than above and unbalances the force to slow down your mass.
And anything, even a person's body, would do that naturally. So why doesn't it slow them down?
If it was pressure, it would be based upon area, and as such, the parachute should accelerate faster.

I've tried many times to answer this and only Jane ever got it.
Iron displaces more atmosphere than aluminium because it's much less porous.
BULLSHIT!
They do not have a significant difference in their porosity.
It seems you are just making up more and more bullshit to make up for your inadequate explanation of gravity.

The only way I can hopefully make you understand is to imagine the iron ball as being a very dense sponge ball with tiny pores.
The aluminium ball has larger pores.
So by throwing reality out the window?

There is no true vacuum on Earth as you know so we are dealing with extreme expansion of molecules
No. The molecules do not expand.

Place a atmospherically (15psi) object into a extreme low pressure environment and you take away the resistant force that would normally friction grip that object to slow it down.
This is why a feather can fall much faster due to very little resistance.
It's like trying to get a bird to fly inside a partially evacuated chamber (if it could survive, which it couldn't). It's going to drop like a dense stone.
Yes. That is because gravity is pulling it down.
But your explanation is the air pressure is pushing it down. But you admit that that has significantly reduced. So what is pushing it down now?

I can explain mine. You can't explain gravity and all the rest of the gunk, so who's relying on magic?
A clue: it isn't me.
No. You can't. You resort to rejecting reality with explanations which make no sense and thus are effectively magic.
Did you notice how for my questions, instead of answering them honestly and rationally, you just spout nonsense which goes against reality, or ignore the key objection?

So you are the one relying upon magic.
Let's just leave it at that. I cannot be arsed to waste more typing effort on you to receive the same stuff back.
Just stick to your guns and be happy with it. I'll stick to mine.

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2016, 07:15:50 AM »
I'm not talking about the air pressure being equal on land, I'm talking about in a sub. And in a sub the air pressure IS equally exerted outward. Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented? There is no other air pressure force acting  on or inside the sub except for what's already inside.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2016, 01:02:34 PM »
Let's just leave it at that. I cannot be arsed to waste more typing effort on you to receive the same stuff back.
Just stick to your guns and be happy with it. I'll stick to mine.

i.e. you have no rational defence of your claim.

How about a much simpler question:
Why does the air push some things up and other things down?
Why does water push some things up and other things down?

Pressure alone cannot be an explanation as the pressure is exerted from all directions (at least while you are in mid-air or underwater).

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2016, 07:17:55 AM »
I'm not talking about the air pressure being equal on land, I'm talking about in a sub. And in a sub the air pressure IS equally exerted outward. Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented? There is no other air pressure force acting  on or inside the sub except for what's already inside.
Scepti... I'm waiting for your denspressure answer on this.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2016, 09:25:40 AM »
I'm not talking about the air pressure being equal on land, I'm talking about in a sub. And in a sub the air pressure IS equally exerted outward. Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented? There is no other air pressure force acting  on or inside the sub except for what's already inside.
Scepti... I'm waiting for your denspressure answer on this.
Things don't fall towards the centre of the Earth.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15538
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2016, 09:50:03 AM »

Try and open a plane door in flight and you'd need to be the incredible hulk. Why?
Because air pressure is keeping that door firmly clamped, as well as the obvious locking mechanism.


That's funny, because it's the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2016, 10:31:14 AM »
I'm not talking about the air pressure being equal on land, I'm talking about in a sub. And in a sub the air pressure IS equally exerted outward. Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented? There is no other air pressure force acting  on or inside the sub except for what's already inside.
Scepti... I'm waiting for your denspressure answer on this.
Things don't fall towards the centre of the Earth.
Really? That's your answer? Come on you can do better than that. Answer my question about the sub.
Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2016, 10:33:34 AM »

Try and open a plane door in flight and you'd need to be the incredible hulk. Why?
Because air pressure is keeping that door firmly clamped, as well as the obvious locking mechanism.


That's funny, because it's the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Brush up a little bit and even take a plane ride and see it in action.
The hatch is like a sink plug from inside not outside..

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2016, 10:39:06 AM »
I'm not talking about the air pressure being equal on land, I'm talking about in a sub. And in a sub the air pressure IS equally exerted outward. Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented? There is no other air pressure force acting  on or inside the sub except for what's already inside.
Scepti... I'm waiting for your denspressure answer on this.
Things don't fall towards the centre of the Earth.
Really? That's your answer? Come on you can do better than that. Answer my question about the sub.
Why do things fall toward the center of the earth no matter which way the sub is oriented?
Does a helium or hydrogen balloon do this?
Now what do you mean by the centre of the Earth?
Are you talking about your fictional globe with an iron core both liquid and solid?
If so I'd like you to seriously tell me how you know this to be true bearing in mind no man has ever seen it nor got a fraction near it judging by the drilling experiments into the Earth's crust.

So tell me what's happening in your world.
Tell me what's happening underwater in your sub that's filled with compressed air and buoyant at a small depth.

Use your own words .

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2016, 12:03:40 PM »
I have been using my own words, and you're not answering my clear question. I didn't say anything about a helium or hydrogen Ballon, what's that got to do with a ball falling inside of a sub? You don't wanna use the term "center of the earth", OK. That's fine. We'll call it the ocean floor. Now. A sub, underwater. You drop a ball while inside the sub, and it always falls toward the direction of the ocean floor, no matter the orientation of the sub - 90 degrees turned or even upside down. The air pressure is constantly exerted outward in all directions, yet the ball always falls toward the ocean floor.
Why. Can you answer this without deflecting, changing the subject, or answering with a question?

*

Pezevenk

  • 15538
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2016, 12:21:47 PM »

Try and open a plane door in flight and you'd need to be the incredible hulk. Why?
Because air pressure is keeping that door firmly clamped, as well as the obvious locking mechanism.


That's funny, because it's the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Brush up a little bit and even take a plane ride and see it in action.
The hatch is like a sink plug from inside not outside..

Is your argument seriously a subjective opinion of how an airplane door appears to you? Are airplane manufacturers and people who have been in decompression accidents all in the conspiracy as well? Because it's the exact opposite of what happens. Airplane doors have to have powerful locking mechanisms, because the pressure inside the cabin is higher than the outside, which means that if there's a failing, the door may be sucked outwards, and all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, like this:



Or this:



Or... these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

So sorry mate, you're completely wrong on that.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

deadsirius

  • 899
  • Crime Machine
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2016, 01:01:07 PM »

Think of an elevator dropping down an open air shaft. It's displacing the air under it and pushing it around it. It's compressing that air directly beneath is floor area until that air is pushed up and around it. That compressed air fills the lower pressure left above the elevator and aids it in keeping that push.


This is all fine and good, but completely circular--why is the elevator dropping in the first place?  You've got the cart leading the horse leading the cart.
Suffering from a martyr complex...so you don't have to

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2016, 01:07:52 PM »
Things don't fall towards the centre of the Earth.
Then just "down".

You are yet to explain why "air pressure" pushes some things down, but other things up.
You can't even explain why the air stays put rather than just flying off to space.

Pressure is a hydrostatic force. That means it is the same in all directions.
This means an object in an environment at a particular pressure will receive no net force from it and remain stationary.
The sole exception is when it is small and can be effected by Brownian motion.

The other thing which some people may see as an exception is when an object is dividing 2 regions of different pressure. As it has different pressures on it, which exert different forces, it can be accelerated by them.

But an object in Earth's atmosphere has no reason to be accelerated by air pressure.

As for why some things fall and others float, we have gravity, which can be considered bending space time such that the time axis points towards the massive object.
This produces a force proportional to the product of the objects' masses.
This means the acceleration (ignoring other factors like buoyancy and drag), will be the same for any 2 objects paired with Earth, and that is why a steel ball and a aluminium ball fall at the same rate.

Drag is an effect of the particles interacting with the air/gas. This is based upon speed, as it needs to push the air out of the way. In order to do so, it compresses the air in front of it and decompresses the air behind it. This results in a pressure differential that produces a force which acts against the direction of motion, in effect slowing the object down.
This is also relative to the air, so an object can be suspended at a particular height by blowing up from underneath it, and light objects can be lifted by the thermal motion of air. (more complex parts include turbulence and heating the air, but I wont get into that).
It should be noted that this force is proportional to the interaction with air, not the mass of the object.
This is why very light objects with large areas, like a piece of paper or a feather, will often fall (depending on the shape and orientation) much slower than a much denser object which little surface area (like a steel ball), and why aerodynamic objects fall faster than non-aerodynamic objects (however the speed required is not always easily detectable for normal drop heights).

The final point is buoyancy.
This is also due to gravity.
When you put something, like a boat, into some medium/fluid, like water, they both can't occupy the same space.
Both want to fall all the way to the bottom of the potential well (or at least as low as they can go), but they can't both do it.
As the boat forces its way into the water, it needs to displace the water. The more water it displaces the more force is required (as it is effectively holding up that water against gravity). Eventually the force of gravity pulling it down matches the force of displacing and holding up the water, and thus it floats on the surface. It displaces its own mass in water (as its mass determines how much force it gets from gravity, and the mass of the water determines how much force gravity is exerting on it which needs to be overcome).

In some cases (such as for subs, or steel balls), the mass of water it would displace is greater than its own volume.
This means it will displace the water that would otherwise occupy its volume, and that requires less force than the force given to it by gravity. This means it will continue to sink.
However, as it now has to exert force to hold up the water, it will sink at a slower rate (but typically a much more noticable force would be the drag of the water).

The water will also get denser as you go deeper. This means the force required to displace the water grows as you get deeper. For some objects, like subs, they carefully alter their volume, by allowing water in or expelling it, to change the volume occupied and are able to match the density of the water allowing them to just displace the same mass as the amount of water which would occupy their volume, and thus the remain at a particular depth.


The same applies in air. It is just much less noticeable for most objects. Water has a density of 1 g/ml, while air has a density of 0.0012 g/ml.

If you fill a balloon, gravity not only has to pull the balloon down, but also the air inside it (which increases in density slightly due to pressure).
So if you have a balloon which weighs 1.2 g, with 1L of air in it, the air inside will be (ignoring the slight change in density due to pressure), neutrally buoyant. It will be like water in water. If it moves down it has to displace its own mass of air, which takes the same force as gravity is giving it, which means that it provides no net force to accelerate the balloon. This means you only have the force acting on the rubber balloon itself to accelerate the balloon, but it has twice the mass to accelerate and thus will accelerate more slowly.

If instead you fill it with a gas that is lighter than air, like helium, then that helium also has to displace the atmosphere, but the atmosphere it needs to displace is heavier than it, so it would take more force than that given to it by gravity. This means the net force is in an upwards direction. Thus, depending on the mass of helium and balloon (and the pressures involved) it could potentially experience a net force upwards and rise instead of fall.
The other way of considering this is by considering the atmosphere. This atmosphere wants to go down to the bottom of the well as well. But it needs to displace its volume as well.
For most things, like a body or water, it would require much more force to displace the thing that it would get from gravity. As such, it is unable to displace it (and if these things are rigid bodies, then it would need to displace it all. If these things weren't rigid bodies and instead were fluids, then it would need to act over the entire area of the fluid and effectively is trying to push itself down over all of it, which just compresses it a bit rather than displacing any, as displacing some in one spot would just force a different spot to displace it back).
What this means is that the atmosphere will force the helium filled balloon out of the way and fill the void left by it as that will take less force than the force imparted by gravity.

Does that all make sense?

If you managed to get a strong enough balloon to hold in the pressure, and dropped a helium filled balloon in a vacuum, then it would fall.

Does this make sense?

Now then, what is your answer for why things fall or rise?
Remember, if you need to appeal to a force that is dependent on mass, you have effectively brought in gravity.
Pressure is proportional to area.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2016, 01:14:17 PM »

That's funny, because it's the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Brush up a little bit and even take a plane ride and see it in action.
The hatch is like a sink plug from inside not outside..

Is your argument seriously a subjective opinion of how an airplane door appears to you? Are airplane manufacturers and people who have been in decompression accidents all in the conspiracy as well? Because it's the exact opposite of what happens. Airplane doors have to have powerful locking mechanisms, because the pressure inside the cabin is higher than the outside, which means that if there's a failing, the door may be sucked outwards, and all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, like this:

So sorry mate, you're completely wrong on that.

There are 2 classes of doors on aircraft.

There are the early design ones, which opened outwards as that was more convenient.
With this class, they need good locking mechanism to prevent the door from opening mid flight.
Numerous notable incidents involve these locking mechanism failing (or some other aspect failing) and thus resulting in the door (typically along with large sections of the aircraft skin) flying off.

However, on lots of modern, commercial aircraft, doors (or at least some doors) open inwards. This means that if the lock fails, the doors still don't open.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2016, 02:26:41 PM »
I have been using my own words, and you're not answering my clear question. I didn't say anything about a helium or hydrogen Ballon, what's that got to do with a ball falling inside of a sub? You don't wanna use the term "center of the earth", OK. That's fine. We'll call it the ocean floor. Now. A sub, underwater. You drop a ball while inside the sub, and it always falls toward the direction of the ocean floor, no matter the orientation of the sub - 90 degrees turned or even upside down. The air pressure is constantly exerted outward in all directions, yet the ball always falls toward the ocean floor.
Why. Can you answer this without deflecting, changing the subject, or answering with a question?
I'll answer this question when you clearly answer the same question as to why you think it happens.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2016, 02:28:37 PM »

Try and open a plane door in flight and you'd need to be the incredible hulk. Why?
Because air pressure is keeping that door firmly clamped, as well as the obvious locking mechanism.


That's funny, because it's the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Brush up a little bit and even take a plane ride and see it in action.
The hatch is like a sink plug from inside not outside..

Is your argument seriously a subjective opinion of how an airplane door appears to you? Are airplane manufacturers and people who have been in decompression accidents all in the conspiracy as well? Because it's the exact opposite of what happens. Airplane doors have to have powerful locking mechanisms, because the pressure inside the cabin is higher than the outside, which means that if there's a failing, the door may be sucked outwards, and all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, like this:



Or this:



Or... these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

So sorry mate, you're completely wrong on that.
You need to try reading what I actually said.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2016, 02:28:45 PM »
I have been using my own words, and you're not answering my clear question. I didn't say anything about a helium or hydrogen Ballon, what's that got to do with a ball falling inside of a sub? You don't wanna use the term "center of the earth", OK. That's fine. We'll call it the ocean floor. Now. A sub, underwater. You drop a ball while inside the sub, and it always falls toward the direction of the ocean floor, no matter the orientation of the sub - 90 degrees turned or even upside down. The air pressure is constantly exerted outward in all directions, yet the ball always falls toward the ocean floor.
Why. Can you answer this without deflecting, changing the subject, or answering with a question?
I'll answer this question when you clearly answer the same question as to why you think it happens.

I have. Your turn.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2016, 02:55:53 PM »
Things don't fall towards the centre of the Earth.
Then just "down".

You are yet to explain why "air pressure" pushes some things down, but other things up.
You can't even explain why the air stays put rather than just flying off to space.

Pressure is a hydrostatic force. That means it is the same in all directions.
This means an object in an environment at a particular pressure will receive no net force from it and remain stationary.
The sole exception is when it is small and can be effected by Brownian motion.

The other thing which some people may see as an exception is when an object is dividing 2 regions of different pressure. As it has different pressures on it, which exert different forces, it can be accelerated by them.

But an object in Earth's atmosphere has no reason to be accelerated by air pressure.

As for why some things fall and others float, we have gravity, which can be considered bending space time such that the time axis points towards the massive object.
This produces a force proportional to the product of the objects' masses.
This means the acceleration (ignoring other factors like buoyancy and drag), will be the same for any 2 objects paired with Earth, and that is why a steel ball and a aluminium ball fall at the same rate.

Drag is an effect of the particles interacting with the air/gas. This is based upon speed, as it needs to push the air out of the way. In order to do so, it compresses the air in front of it and decompresses the air behind it. This results in a pressure differential that produces a force which acts against the direction of motion, in effect slowing the object down.
This is also relative to the air, so an object can be suspended at a particular height by blowing up from underneath it, and light objects can be lifted by the thermal motion of air. (more complex parts include turbulence and heating the air, but I wont get into that).
It should be noted that this force is proportional to the interaction with air, not the mass of the object.
This is why very light objects with large areas, like a piece of paper or a feather, will often fall (depending on the shape and orientation) much slower than a much denser object which little surface area (like a steel ball), and why aerodynamic objects fall faster than non-aerodynamic objects (however the speed required is not always easily detectable for normal drop heights).

The final point is buoyancy.
This is also due to gravity.
When you put something, like a boat, into some medium/fluid, like water, they both can't occupy the same space.
Both want to fall all the way to the bottom of the potential well (or at least as low as they can go), but they can't both do it.
As the boat forces its way into the water, it needs to displace the water. The more water it displaces the more force is required (as it is effectively holding up that water against gravity). Eventually the force of gravity pulling it down matches the force of displacing and holding up the water, and thus it floats on the surface. It displaces its own mass in water (as its mass determines how much force it gets from gravity, and the mass of the water determines how much force gravity is exerting on it which needs to be overcome).

In some cases (such as for subs, or steel balls), the mass of water it would displace is greater than its own volume.
This means it will displace the water that would otherwise occupy its volume, and that requires less force than the force given to it by gravity. This means it will continue to sink.
However, as it now has to exert force to hold up the water, it will sink at a slower rate (but typically a much more noticable force would be the drag of the water).

The water will also get denser as you go deeper. This means the force required to displace the water grows as you get deeper. For some objects, like subs, they carefully alter their volume, by allowing water in or expelling it, to change the volume occupied and are able to match the density of the water allowing them to just displace the same mass as the amount of water which would occupy their volume, and thus the remain at a particular depth.


The same applies in air. It is just much less noticeable for most objects. Water has a density of 1 g/ml, while air has a density of 0.0012 g/ml.

If you fill a balloon, gravity not only has to pull the balloon down, but also the air inside it (which increases in density slightly due to pressure).
So if you have a balloon which weighs 1.2 g, with 1L of air in it, the air inside will be (ignoring the slight change in density due to pressure), neutrally buoyant. It will be like water in water. If it moves down it has to displace its own mass of air, which takes the same force as gravity is giving it, which means that it provides no net force to accelerate the balloon. This means you only have the force acting on the rubber balloon itself to accelerate the balloon, but it has twice the mass to accelerate and thus will accelerate more slowly.

If instead you fill it with a gas that is lighter than air, like helium, then that helium also has to displace the atmosphere, but the atmosphere it needs to displace is heavier than it, so it would take more force than that given to it by gravity. This means the net force is in an upwards direction. Thus, depending on the mass of helium and balloon (and the pressures involved) it could potentially experience a net force upwards and rise instead of fall.
The other way of considering this is by considering the atmosphere. This atmosphere wants to go down to the bottom of the well as well. But it needs to displace its volume as well.
For most things, like a body or water, it would require much more force to displace the thing that it would get from gravity. As such, it is unable to displace it (and if these things are rigid bodies, then it would need to displace it all. If these things weren't rigid bodies and instead were fluids, then it would need to act over the entire area of the fluid and effectively is trying to push itself down over all of it, which just compresses it a bit rather than displacing any, as displacing some in one spot would just force a different spot to displace it back).
What this means is that the atmosphere will force the helium filled balloon out of the way and fill the void left by it as that will take less force than the force imparted by gravity.

Does that all make sense?

If you managed to get a strong enough balloon to hold in the pressure, and dropped a helium filled balloon in a vacuum, then it would fall.

Does this make sense?

Now then, what is your answer for why things fall or rise?
Remember, if you need to appeal to a force that is dependent on mass, you have effectively brought in gravity.
Pressure is proportional to area.
I'll happily answer these questions if you split tghem up one at a time in each post.
Start at the very top and post one question at a time.

I'll start by answering the first question.

This one.

You are yet to explain why "air pressure" pushes some things down, but other things up.

It's simply down to the density of the object pushing into the atmosphere above. That object displaces it's own density/mass.
The same applies to water. You displace your own mass. You understand this.
On Earth you compress the air you are stood/laid in. That air is placed back onto you, as in it pushes back against you . It basically squeezes you and keeps you down because your body is made up of more dense particles than what is directly above you and so you cannot overcome them.

However if you were to be able to expand your body to mammoth proportions...and I mean mammoth proportions, you would eventually be squeezed up because you molecules in your body would be expanded beyond the area where the dense atmosphere has hold and so you get squeezed up.
That's why helium balloons float up.

I'll answer this next one and then you can carry on one question at a time from there.

You can't even explain why the air stays put rather than just flying off to space.

It's stacked into a dome and the dome keeps the atmosphere under pressure, because the dome is frozen against a true vacuum.

Ok there's your first two questions answered.

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2016, 03:02:03 PM »
I have been using my own words, and you're not answering my clear question. I didn't say anything about a helium or hydrogen Ballon, what's that got to do with a ball falling inside of a sub? You don't wanna use the term "center of the earth", OK. That's fine. We'll call it the ocean floor. Now. A sub, underwater. You drop a ball while inside the sub, and it always falls toward the direction of the ocean floor, no matter the orientation of the sub - 90 degrees turned or even upside down. The air pressure is constantly exerted outward in all directions, yet the ball always falls toward the ocean floor.
Why. Can you answer this without deflecting, changing the subject, or answering with a question?
I'll answer this question when you clearly answer the same question as to why you think it happens.
The answer is I've put you in a corner you can't get out from. You can't /won't explain because your denspressure fails to answer this. You know it and I know it.
If I haven't answered YOUR question satisfactorily, Jack certainly has. So either answer this question, or admit you cannot.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2016, 03:09:25 PM »
I have been using my own words, and you're not answering my clear question. I didn't say anything about a helium or hydrogen Ballon, what's that got to do with a ball falling inside of a sub? You don't wanna use the term "center of the earth", OK. That's fine. We'll call it the ocean floor. Now. A sub, underwater. You drop a ball while inside the sub, and it always falls toward the direction of the ocean floor, no matter the orientation of the sub - 90 degrees turned or even upside down. The air pressure is constantly exerted outward in all directions, yet the ball always falls toward the ocean floor.
Why. Can you answer this without deflecting, changing the subject, or answering with a question?
I'll answer this question when you clearly answer the same question as to why you think it happens.
The answer is I've put you in a corner you can't get out from. You can't /won't explain because your denspressure fails to answer this. You know it and I know it.
If I haven't answered YOUR question satisfactorily, Jack certainly has. So either answer this question, or admit you cannot.
It seems you can't answer the question. You want to say gravity but you know I'd be asking why gravity pulls people down in a sub and you will say, " oh because it just does and I have Newton and loads of scientists on my side." .......NAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

The simple answer is, the Earth has a dome. The dome holds in the atmosphere to create a pressure below. Any dense object/person below is pushed/squeezed down to the floor. A submarine is equally pushed down and all that is within it.

Up and down are the way we are orientated inside this domed Earth.


Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2016, 03:27:15 PM »
But you can't explain why a ball goes DOWN when inside a sub with equal pressure. In an equally pressurized vessel, why doesn't it go sideways, or up? The pressure force exerted is the same all the way around, right? So why should the ball favor the floor? The air inside doesn't favor one side or the other does it? No, it's equal.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2016, 03:40:30 PM »
But you can't explain why a ball goes DOWN when inside a sub with equal pressure. In an equally pressurized vessel, why doesn't it go sideways, or up? The pressure force exerted is the same all the way around, right? So why should the ball favor the floor? The air inside doesn't favor one side or the other does it? No, it's equal.
The ball still has a density within the equal pressure and until that sub is exactly in equilibrium with the Earth, the ball will be squeezed down to the floor.

Think about what I'm telling you.
If you think on a globe then you will forever be confused.

Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2016, 04:34:08 PM »
OK, the sub has enough ballast to be suspended underwater - equilibrium. The ball still falls down. The sub's state of suspense in the water changes nothing.
The air itself cannot squeeze the ball and everything else inside enough to hold it down.
Forget the sub - above ground vacuum chamber. Not a true vacuum, yes, but you can remove most all of the air creating negative pressure. Things still fall, just as fast as they did before, if not faster due to no air resistance. So what's pushing objects down now? Can't be the non-existing air.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Sky is pushing us as how sea is lifting up the ships
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2016, 11:54:35 PM »
OK, the sub has enough ballast to be suspended underwater - equilibrium. The ball still falls down. The sub's state of suspense in the water changes nothing.
The air itself cannot squeeze the ball and everything else inside enough to hold it down.
Forget the sub - above ground vacuum chamber. Not a true vacuum, yes, but you can remove most all of the air creating negative pressure. Things still fall, just as fast as they did before, if not faster due to no air resistance. So what's pushing objects down now? Can't be the non-existing air.
So you've changed from the sub now.
I've just told you why things fall. I've told you about up and down. Why is up and down such a big deal with my thoughts and yet it's supposedly sense making when you use gravity that you can't even explain and a centre of Earth that you absolutely have never witnesses nor has anyone else, in any form other than playing guessing games.

Mine makes real sense if people bother to look at it without global bias.
Your indoctrinated forces are not even explainable.

My atmosphere stays in and pressurised because it's an enclosed self sustaining system that recycles and wastes nothing.
Your indoctrinated system is a ball with a supposed thin circling atmosphere that apparently loses hydrogen and helium, etc to space...somehow and yet it also keeps a pressure for some reason. How?

You see you can go along with your atmospheric stack but it has to have an end. It has to have a ceiling to create the sustaining pressure.

My dome ensures where up and down is.
Our bodies are geared to be squeezed down as we push up.

You really should be questioning why you b lieve what you do.
As for the extreme low pressure environment of the so called vacuum container you mention. It's still the same answer.
You place an object in it and that object is still being pushed to the deck as it pushes up.
Note an object expanding as the pressure is reduced.
The low pressure area has to be filled by expansion of matter that still stacks from the bottom up.