The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.

  • 26 Replies
  • 4458 Views
The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« on: November 27, 2016, 12:45:08 AM »
So if gases are subject to gravity and the Earth's gravity holds gases in place to form our atmosphere, why is it that the Moon's Gravitational pull influences the ocean's tides but it does not influence our atmosphere? It would seem that the vacuum of space combined with the Moon's gravitation would shred our atmosphere. Can anyone explain how the Moon influences the oceans but does not influence our atmosphere?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 11:31:34 PM by Overworld »

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2016, 01:17:33 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_tide

Quote
Atmospheric tides are also produced through the gravitational effects of the Moon.[4] Lunar (gravitational) tides are much weaker than solar (thermal) tides and are generated by the motion of the Earth's oceans (caused by the Moon) and to a lesser extent the effect of the Moon's gravitational attraction on the atmosphere.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 


*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2016, 02:06:42 AM »
So if gases are subject to gravity and the Earth's gravity holds gases in place to form our atmosphere, why is it that the Moon's Gravitational pull influences the ocean's tides but it does not influence our atmosphere? It would seem that the vacuum of space combined with the Moon's gravitation would shred our atmosphere. Can anyone explain how the Moon influences the oceans but does not influence our atmosphere?
How do we know it doesn't influence the atmosphere?

Earth is constantly getting gas pumped into it from solar wind from the sun, and constantly loosing parts of its atmosphere (which both are made up of significant amounts of helium).

You need to remember scale and density of the atmosphere and the like.
The moon would make the atmosphere bulge, nothing more. But for the ocean, that bulge is a few m, out of thousands of km of the Earth's radius.
Similarly, the bulge for the atmosphere is going to be quite insignificant, and the density there is quite low, so it would produce very little noticeable effect.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2016, 02:42:16 AM »
Barometer pressure paradox:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707294#msg1707294
Why must everything be a paradox to you?
Quote
The most basic change in pressure is the twice daily rise and fall in due to the heating from the sun. Each day, around 4 a.m./p.m. the pressure is at its lowest and near its peak around 10 a.m./p.m. The magnitude of the daily cycle are greatest near the equator decreasing toward the poles.
From National Weather Service, Air Pressure.
Why the paradox?

Quote from: sandokhan
Acceleration of the annual precession paradox:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776082#msg1776082
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1776108#msg1776108
Quite irrelevant to the present discussion.

Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2016, 06:09:12 PM »
Jack Black, I have never seen any satellite pictures of Earth with a bulge in the atmosphere. Also if the Moon's gravity creates a bulge in the water so close to Earth's gravity I would think it would have a much greater effect on gases in the atmosphere which are lighter, further away from Earth's gravity and closer to the Moon's gravity. Not to mention the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space.

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2016, 06:24:32 PM »
Jack Black, I have never seen any satellite pictures of Earth with a bulge in the atmosphere. Also if the Moon's gravity creates a bulge in the water so close to Earth's gravity I would think it would have a much greater effect on gases in the atmosphere which are lighter, further away from Earth's gravity and closer to the Moon's gravity. Not to mention the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space.

Ahem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_tide

Quote
Atmospheric tides are also produced through the gravitational effects of the Moon.[4] Lunar (gravitational) tides are much weaker than solar (thermal) tides and are generated by the motion of the Earth's oceans (caused by the Moon) and to a lesser extent the effect of the Moon's gravitational attraction on the atmosphere.

Been doing a lot of RE defending actually, must mean you guys are bringing up good points.

I should slow down.

Overworld check out the math it works.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 06:26:09 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2016, 06:36:34 PM »
From that Wikipedia link..."Atmospheric tides are also produced through the gravitational effects of the Moon.[4] Lunar (gravitational) tides are much weaker than solar (thermal) tides and are generated by the motion of the Earth's oceans (caused by the Moon) and to a lesser extent the effect of the Moon's gravitational attraction on the atmosphere."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So the Moon's effect on the ocean creates a greater Lunar tide than the moon's direct effect on the atmosphere? WTF! How does that work?! Who writes this stuff?! Again I ask how does the moon have a greater effect on heavier water close to the Earth than lighter gases further away from the Earth? You can put on a lab coat and call it science but that makes no sense.
















                                                                         

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 06:49:10 PM »
Jack Black, I have never seen any satellite pictures of Earth with a bulge in the atmosphere.
And just what would you expect a bulge in the atmosphere to look like?

Quote from: Overworld
Also if the Moon's gravity creates a bulge in the water so close to Earth's gravity I would think it would have a much greater effect on gases in the atmosphere which are lighter, further away from Earth's gravity and closer to the Moon's gravity. Not to mention the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space.
Since any force due to gravity depends in the mass of the object and
          air at sea level has a mass of about 1.224 kg/m3 and half that at 7 to 10 km altitude,
          but sea-water has a mass of 1,025 kg/m3, almost 840 times that of air.

Then the moon is about 384,400 km away and the atmosphere is only a few kilometers thick, so it is very little closer to the moon.

I am afraid that I have no idea what you mean by "the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space" though.

The whole subject of ocean tides is very complicated. It is not as simple as the moon and sun "lifting" the oceans by a couple of metres. In deep water, well away from land, tides are quite small.

The moon and sun make a small "bulge" or wave (a small "tidal wave" if you like to call it that) which, like tidal waves, only becomes significant when it reaches shallow water.

It is not a topic that can be explained accurately with a short note like this.

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 07:12:21 PM »
From that Wikipedia link..."Atmospheric tides are also produced through the gravitational effects of the Moon.[4] Lunar (gravitational) tides are much weaker than solar (thermal) tides and are generated by the motion of the Earth's oceans (caused by the Moon) and to a lesser extent the effect of the Moon's gravitational attraction on the atmosphere."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So the Moon's effect on the ocean creates a greater Lunar tide than the moon's direct effect on the atmosphere? WTF! How does that work?! Who writes this stuff?! Again I ask how does the moon have a greater effect on heavier water close to the Earth than lighter gases further away from the Earth? You can put on a lab coat and call it science but that makes no sense.                                                                     

The ocean is much heavier than the atmosphere, so I would say it makes perfect sense that the moon has a greater effect on the oceans than the atmosphere.

Are you familiar with the inverse square law?

Hint, the answer to your last question is the inverse square law, please check the orthodox math.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Forces/isq.html
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 07:16:07 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 07:15:27 PM »
Since any force due to gravity depends in the mass of the object and
          air at sea level has a mass of about 1.224 kg/m3 and half that at 7 to 10 km altitude,
          but sea-water has a mass of 1,025 kg/m3, almost 840 times that of air.

Then the moon is about 384,400 km away and the atmosphere is only a few kilometers thick, so it is very little closer to the moon.

Pretty much this, say what you like about Rab but he makes some quality posts sometimes.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 07:21:42 PM »
I am afraid that I have no idea what you mean by "the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space" though.

He means like a vacuum sucks air because of a pressure difference or the way wind works because of pressure differences.

"Why isn't the atmosphere sucked off the planet like space is a vacuum cleaner."

I admit I can't answer this without using the word gravity, if you look into the physics and try to get an understanding of it before trying to debunk it it will help a lot.

Edit, this is boring back to arguing FE.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 07:25:26 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 07:39:29 PM »
I am afraid that I have no idea what you mean by "the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space" though.

He means like a vacuum sucks air because of a pressure difference or the way wind works because of pressure differences.

"Why isn't the atmosphere sucked off the planet like space is a vacuum cleaner."

I admit I can't answer this without using the word gravity, if you look into the physics and try to get an understanding of it before trying to debunk it it will help a lot.

Edit, this is boring back to arguing FE.
Agreed, you can't support the Globe without gravitation and you can't support the Flat Earth with gravitation,
                         again I could misquote Flanders and Swann and say "You can try if you like, but you'd far betta notta!"
Newtonian type gravitation on a finite flat earth leads to very funny directions for gravity.

*

onebigmonkey

  • 1623
  • You. Yes you. Stand still laddie.
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 09:29:42 PM »
I would also think that the atmosphere's constant motion and the fact that it is not confined by ocean basins would iron out any lunar influences quite quickly.
Facts won't do what I want them to.

We went from a round Earth to a round Moon: http://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/apollo.html

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 09:46:06 PM »
I would also think that the atmosphere's constant motion and the fact that it is not confined by ocean basins would iron out any lunar influences quite quickly.

There are weak lunar influences on the atmosphere, you can see in the link I provided.

Did you know we weigh about a glass of water less when the sun, moon and jupiters gravitational effects are working together? Found that out here.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 09:48:06 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2016, 02:57:36 AM »
Jack Black, I have never seen any satellite pictures of Earth with a bulge in the atmosphere. Also if the Moon's gravity creates a bulge in the water so close to Earth's gravity I would think it would have a much greater effect on gases in the atmosphere which are lighter, further away from Earth's gravity and closer to the Moon's gravity. Not to mention the force of the Moon's gravity combined with the vacuum of space.

Have you done the mass to see how much it would be bulging?
I doubt it.

I have never seen a satellite picture of Earth that shows the eccentricity of Earth or the tides.

This is because of how small it is compared to Earth. You would need a reference circle/ellipse to compare it to.
Then you have the issue of viewing the atmosphere and deciding where the arbitrary cut off is.

No. The vacuum wont effect it, because it is the same in all directions.

You also claim it is closer, this depends on exactly where you claim the edge is.
The moon ranging between roughly 350 000 and 400 000 km away.
One common arbitrary line in the sand saying the edge of the atmosphere is 100 km. That would put the edge of the atmosphere at roughly 0.025-0.03% closer. Not very much, so I would say that distance difference can be ignored.

Yes, it is lighter, and much thinner, especially at altitude. This makes it much harder to see and gives rise to less noticeable effects, and would make the apparent edge quite blurry.

However, as gravity accelerates objects the same regardless of their mass (the mass of the object being accelerated), its lower mass doesn't help either.

Yes, it is further from Earth, by a more significant amount, however again, that is the same in all directions and thus doesn't give rise to a tidal force.

So at best, you are looking for a distortion of a few m in a blurry line.

You would stand pretty much no chance of seeing that, so it isn't surprising that you don't.

From that Wikipedia link..."Atmospheric tides are also produced through the gravitational effects of the Moon.[4] Lunar (gravitational) tides are much weaker than solar (thermal) tides and are generated by the motion of the Earth's oceans (caused by the Moon) and to a lesser extent the effect of the Moon's gravitational attraction on the atmosphere."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So the Moon's effect on the ocean creates a greater Lunar tide than the moon's direct effect on the atmosphere? WTF! How does that work?! Who writes this stuff?! Again I ask how does the moon have a greater effect on heavier water close to the Earth than lighter gases further away from the Earth? You can put on a lab coat and call it science but that makes no sense.

But that isn't what it says.

It is saying the sun has a more significant effect on the air than the moon does.
Quite different.

This is because the air has pretty much no thermal mass and thus can easily be heated up by the sun, while the Ocean is much harder to heat up by the sun (to the same extent) and has evaporation cooling.


Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2016, 07:16:54 PM »
Disputeone, thanks for the link on the Inverse Square Law, however it did say that " It is a subject of continuing debate with a source such as a skunk on top of a flag pole; will it's smell drop off according to the inverse square law?" So unless that was meant tongue in cheek (mathematician's humor?)  I guess it's not settled. Anyway I appreciate the responses and especially the respectful tone of you and the other posts.

*

disputeone

  • 25621
  • Or should I?
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2016, 07:21:40 PM »
Not at all its what I do.

I don't pretend for a second to fully grasp GR and I have been outspoken that I think dark matter / energy is a weak explanation at best.

It is however the best one we have at the moment.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 07:24:02 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2016, 11:38:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure that was just a joke.
A skunk's smell spreads out in a far more complex way.

The inverse square law applies to fields or streams of particles which start at one point and spread out uniformly in all directions without diffraction or the like.

For an infinite line, it is an inverse law.

For an infinite plane, it is not proportional to distance, and instead the force is constant.

Other relations are more complex.
Some of these can be approximated, e.g. outside a symmetric sphere, you can approximate it as a point.

Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2016, 06:12:45 PM »
If the Earth's gravity holds the Moon in place when it is away from the path that the Earth is traveling and keeps it from flying away out into space, then why is it when the Moon is in the Path that the Earth travels the Earth's gravity combined with it's speed doesn't bring the Moon crashing into Earth, or at the very least bring it in much closer?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 06:24:55 PM by Overworld »

?

sir_awesome123

  • 277
  • proud NASA shill
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2016, 07:22:01 PM »
If the Earth's gravity holds the Moon in place when it is away from the path that the Earth is traveling and keeps it from flying away out into space, then why is it when the Moon is in the Path that the Earth travels the Earth's gravity combined with it's speed doesn't bring the Moon crashing into Earth, or at the very least bring it in much closer?

this is a hypothesis you can test. take a yoyo, spin it around your hand. run forward.
"hey what are you doing?"
"nothing, just arguing with this dude, he thinks the earth is flat"
"no really, what are you doing?"

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2016, 07:46:13 PM »
If the Earth's gravity holds the Moon in place when it is away from the path that the Earth is traveling and keeps it from flying away out into space, then why is it when the Moon is in the Path that the Earth travels the Earth's gravity combined with it's speed doesn't bring the Moon crashing into Earth, or at the very least bring it in much closer?

The moon and earth orbit each other. Both the earth and moon rotate about a common centre-of-mass (bary-centre) of the system.
From Some Consequences of Kepler, Galileo, and Newton Equations..

The earth-moon combination then orbit the sun.  You could say that the "bary-centre" orbits the sun, and the moon and earth both orbit that.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2016, 01:03:54 AM »
If the Earth's gravity holds the Moon in place when it is away from the path that the Earth is traveling and keeps it from flying away out into space, then why is it when the Moon is in the Path that the Earth travels the Earth's gravity combined with it's speed doesn't bring the Moon crashing into Earth, or at the very least bring it in much closer?

Like I said, the moon is (then) travelling faster than Earth.

As it pulls into Earth, this speed, with the combined gravity of the sun and Earth result in the moon moving ahead of Earth rather than crashing into it.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2016, 01:58:06 AM »
So if gases are subject to gravity and the Earth's gravity holds gases in place to form our atmosphere, why is it that the Moon's Gravitational pull influences the ocean's tides but it does not influence our atmosphere? It would seem that the vacuum of space combined with the Moon's gravitation would shred our atmosphere. Can anyone explain how the Moon influences the oceans but does not influence our atmosphere?
Yes, because the so called moon in the sky is not a real physical object. It is a reflection from Earth into the sky and reflected back which changes atmospheric pressures as it creates low and high pressures which impact onto the oceans and compress and decompress them, slowly and methodically as it moves around the Earth's circle?... which gives you the tides you see.

The sun you see is the major reflection of energy and is the reason you see the rest of what you see. It's all physical in Earth but reflections you see in the sky.

Everything that happens on Earth is subject to high and low pressure differences. It's what makes EVERYTHING work.

Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2016, 09:44:04 AM »
So if gases are subject to gravity and the Earth's gravity holds gases in place to form our atmosphere, why is it that the Moon's Gravitational pull influences the ocean's tides but it does not influence our atmosphere? It would seem that the vacuum of space combined with the Moon's gravitation would shred our atmosphere. Can anyone explain how the Moon influences the oceans but does not influence our atmosphere?
Yes, because the so called moon in the sky is not a real physical object. It is a reflection from Earth into the sky and reflected back which changes atmospheric pressures as it creates low and high pressures which impact onto the oceans and compress and decompress them, slowly and methodically as it moves around the Earth's circle?... which gives you the tides you see.

The sun you see is the major reflection of energy and is the reason you see the rest of what you see. It's all physical in Earth but reflections you see in the sky.

Everything that happens on Earth is subject to high and low pressure differences. It's what makes EVERYTHING work.
The "moon" is a reflection of the earth? You're gonna have to provide some detail of this claim, other than just saying it.
1. How can a reflection cause pressure differences? A reflection is merely light.
2. The moon phases? They are like clockwork. And the moon moves across the sky from west to east over the 29.5 day cycle, along with rising and setting every day.
3. The surface patterns of the moon look NOTHING like the continents &  oceans of the earth.
4. Solar eclipse. The moon is blocking the light from the sun. If the sun is a reflection, it would overpower the "reflection" of the moon. Yet it does not.
5. Jupiter has several moons, but the 4 closest ones orbit quite quickly, relatively speaking. You'll just dismiss this so I don't know why I even bothered listing it.
6. Where does this light from the sun originate and why can't we see it? Why do we just see the reflection? And as hot as it is and as much energy it has, why doesn't it melt this ice dome? It certainly melts ice down here.
I await your answers...

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2016, 04:50:32 AM »
The "moon" is a reflection of the earth? You're gonna have to provide some detail of this claim, other than just saying it.
1. How can a reflection cause pressure differences? A reflection is merely light.
No it's not just merely light. It's only light to our eyes but the reflection is of radiated energy.
This energy expands atmosphere and causes severe agitation of it, especially at sea level.
This creates pressure differentials, including on the oceans.
 
2. The moon phases? They are like clockwork. And the moon moves across the sky from west to east over the 29.5 day cycle, along with rising and setting every day.
The moon is just a reflection of what created it. The sun. That's it.
It all moves in predictable patterns because the centre of Earth's circle is a massive crystal covered energy source that keeps the Earth cell alive.

3. The surface patterns of the moon look NOTHING like the continents &  oceans of the earth.
I never said they were the continents you know of.
There's a lot of stuff we do not know and are not told, nor will every likely be told, unless something drastic happens.
Make of that what you will.



4. Solar eclipse. The moon is blocking the light from the sun. If the sun is a reflection, it would overpower the "reflection" of the moon. Yet it does not.
You can cancel any colour out in the spectrum.



5. Jupiter has several moons, but the 4 closest ones orbit quite quickly, relatively speaking. You'll just dismiss this so I don't know why I even bothered listing it.
Correct, let's move on.


6. Where does this light from the sun originate and why can't we see it?
Centre of Earth.
You can see it but you can't see what creates it because it's in the centre of Earth from which you as a human being would never get remotely close to.
You can barely see a few miles in clear day, so what chance have you got of seeing anything on this scale?

Why do we just see the reflection?
At night, depending on where you are on Earth, sometimes you can see some effects of it. They name it the northern lights.


And as hot as it is and as much energy it has, why doesn't it melt this ice dome?
Molecules are far too expanded to be agitated enough to melt. They freeze as hydrogen/helium ice making the dome and only every so slightly agitate enough to form dome icicles that do fall due to built up density.


It certainly melts ice down here.
I await your answers...
It melts down  here because atmospheric pressure at sea level or close to it is much greater due to much more COMPRESSED molecules that agitate at a much greater rate as friction due to expansion of energised molecules they crush against.

*

JackBlack

  • 23751
Re: The Moon is a Wrecking Ball.
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2016, 12:10:28 PM »
You don't seem to understand how anything works do you?

If it was made of helium, then it requires high pressure to remain solid. So if the pressure is less up there, there isn't a chance for it to be a solid. It also requires extremely low temperatures.

Reducing pressure makes the boiling point (or sublimation point) and typically also the melting point decrease, not increase.