Ask me About DET!

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Slemon

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Ask me About DET!
« on: September 08, 2016, 10:57:21 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?

For those unfamiliar with DET, it's JRowe's model described here.

Ask a question about the model, pose an objection you have to FET, I'll try to answer with respect to this model. May not be great to start with, but hopefully it'll develop.
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Crouton

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 11:13:15 AM »
Let's get a little meta first.  What are the assumptions we're working with?

Does anything outside the Earth count?

Are we assuming aether is real?

Are space programs a conspiracy?
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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 11:29:36 AM »
From what I understand, there is a seamless transition between the two hemispheres. How then is it that sunlight can travel through then equator and shine from above?
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deadsirius

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 11:38:47 AM »
I'm trying to get a better understanding of the creation of earth in the first place...I get that the aether which composes empty space flows from areas of high concentration into areas of lower concentration, and it seems that it carries matter (dust) with it.  The best I've been able to understand is that as this happens the dust gets compressed together to form the dual earth.  What I don't get is how this ends up being a flat shape--do you think that's coincidence or is there a reason it should particularly come out flat?

Come to think of it, is gravity a result of the "elasticity" of the aether, attempting to further compress the matter in and on the earth?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:41:30 AM by deadsirius »
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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 11:45:48 AM »
1. What advantage does DET have to be even considered as an alternative to round earth? *
2. If aether = space, if there is no space, it means no aether. Since aether flows from high--> low concentration, aether would simply flow into nothing, since nothing=no space=no aether. Where am I wrong?
3. If aether flows up at the equator (do I remember this correctly?) any living thing that would pass the equator would instantly get blown apart, since aether = space, and if the space where the front half of your body is, flows away, you'r pretty damn fucked up, aren't you?
4. How does the sun projection work? I honestly just quickly passed through the model and didn't quite get that.
5. The whole model is quite "complex" or better to say: abstract. Can you to make a understandable, logic overview about the model that is as short as possible? Containing graphs would be nice.
6. Don't you think the DET votes were mostly meant as a joke?
And, last but not least:
7. Is there any evidence or experiment that would support the DET rather than globe earth?

*I got it; for you it's mostly a brain-challenge. But for all the others; why should it be worth a look?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:48:01 AM by User324 »
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sokarul

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2016, 11:46:05 AM »
Have you teleported to the Starship Enterprise yet?
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Aliveandkicking

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2016, 11:47:02 AM »
How can it be falsified?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 11:47:28 AM »
What is the meat between the two buns? 

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Slemon

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2016, 01:05:41 PM »
Let's get a little meta first.  What are the assumptions we're working with?

Does anything outside the Earth count?

Are we assuming aether is real?

Are space programs a conspiracy?
Within the model, it's best to assume aether's real. Well, if you want to get technical it's real regardless, it just has a trait less. As far as asking questions goes though, ask whatever you want to know. No limits.
Under the model, yes, space travel's a conspiracy.

From what I understand, there is a seamless transition between the two hemispheres. How then is it that sunlight can travel through then equator and shine from above?
Diagram:

If you accept the model of instantaneously moving from one side to the other, then you'll know that if you're at the red dot, at ground level, and you walk along you'd end up on the other side of the world. In this case, you'll be moving closer to the inside of the disc (before you get to a crossover point, which I think are marked on the diagram). If you're, say, in a plane at the green dot, you'll continue to move across, and you'll be slightly further inside before, again, you cross sides.
The Sun would be the yellow dot and line. Being much further inside the Earth, the equator-transmission path extending from it would be far higher in the sky. However, when you cross the equator, you don't go near this small amount of space that's inside the Earth. You would need to be very high up to go near the Sun (which, well, is about what we'd expect, the Sun is way up in the sky).
Any lower, and you wouldn't cross through the space.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the creation of earth in the first place...I get that the aether which composes empty space flows from areas of high concentration into areas of lower concentration, and it seems that it carries matter (dust) with it.  The best I've been able to understand is that as this happens the dust gets compressed together to form the dual earth.  What I don't get is how this ends up being a flat shape--do you think that's coincidence or is there a reason it should particularly come out flat?

Come to think of it, is gravity a result of the "elasticity" of the aether, attempting to further compress the matter in and on the earth?
At the beginning, there's a low concentration. If this is any shape beyond a perfect sphere, it will essentially be 'eroded,' smoothed out as the aether flows to fill the low concentration, and then fill the low concentrations left behind. As a result, one direction would be reduced to zero, while the other two would become equal. As such, a flat surface must be the result.
The illustration I've seen is this: suppose you have three dimensions x, y and z (listed in descending order). You cannot increase the length of any of the dimensions. So, as time passes, and they reduce, z would go to 0. y would not have any cause to alter substantially as it's in the middle. So, as x decreases, you'd get x=y and z=0, which is why the low concentration that remains now is essentially a flat plane.
I think that's what gravity's meant to be, too. I try to visualise it as a fluid rather than a stretchy fabric; it flows down to the low concentration, and moves us with it, keeping us on the Earth's surface.

1. What advantage does DET have to be even considered as an alternative to round earth? *
2. If aether = space, if there is no space, it means no aether. Since aether flows from high--> low concentration, aether would simply flow into nothing, since nothing=no space=no aether. Where am I wrong?
3. If aether flows up at the equator (do I remember this correctly?) any living thing that would pass the equator would instantly get blown apart, since aether = space, and if the space where the front half of your body is, flows away, you'r pretty damn fucked up, aren't you?
4. How does the sun projection work? I honestly just quickly passed through the model and didn't quite get that.
5. The whole model is quite "complex" or better to say: abstract. Can you to make a understandable, logic overview about the model that is as short as possible? Containing graphs would be nice.
6. Don't you think the DET votes were mostly meant as a joke?
And, last but not least:
7. Is there any evidence or experiment that would support the DET rather than globe earth?

*I got it; for you it's mostly a brain-challenge. But for all the others; why should it be worth a look?
1. So the model goes, it relies on fewer assumptions. I'm more concerned with the contents of the model than the evidence for it, but I can happily recount what he's said.
2. You assume nothing exists. I'm also not sure anything works like that: an abstract nothing wouldn't be like a black hole, where space flows in and vanishes. presumably the moment aether flows into it, it ceases to be nothing.
3. Space flows up from a point further inside the Earth. I posted part of the diagram above. The green and red are at about the levels humans move. At that point, the flow of aether is that very close to the disc (on the inside) and only exists at the point of transmissions. You'd have to stand with one foot either side of the Earth, but if you did stand there, I don't think you'd feel any force because it's essentially be acting on zero surface area. Whatever force is exerted would be more than cancelled out just by the atomic bonds that hold your body together. Same way you're in aether that flows down to the Earth's surface, and the Earth keeps you up.
4. See the above illustration. Basically the Sun exists in the same kind of flow that lets you cross the equator, so it is in turn transmitted to either side, so we see it and the consequences of it (light, heat etc).
5. Not yet. Lose much of that complexity and you lose a lot of details. Try writing up the same number of explanations for RET, in such a way that someone who'd never heard of it could understand. It's not an easy thing to do at the best of times, and I'm still basically just starting out.
6. I'm british. Even if people vote as a joke, it apparently gets counted. (Yay for political humour).
7. Main evidence is 1. There are potential experiments, but none have been performed.

Have you teleported to the Starship Enterprise yet?
Which one?

What is the meat between the two buns? 

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2016, 01:38:55 PM »
Quote
1. So the model goes, it relies on fewer assumptions. I'm more concerned with the contents of the model than the evidence for it, but I can happily recount what he's said.
2. You assume nothing exists. I'm also not sure anything works like that: an abstract nothing wouldn't be like a black hole, where space flows in and vanishes. presumably the moment aether flows into it, it ceases to be nothing.
3. Space flows up from a point further inside the Earth. I posted part of the diagram above. The green and red are at about the levels humans move. At that point, the flow of aether is that very close to the disc (on the inside) and only exists at the point of transmissions. You'd have to stand with one foot either side of the Earth, but if you did stand there, I don't think you'd feel any force because it's essentially be acting on zero surface area. Whatever force is exerted would be more than cancelled out just by the atomic bonds that hold your body together. Same way you're in aether that flows down to the Earth's surface, and the Earth keeps you up.
4. See the above illustration. Basically the Sun exists in the same kind of flow that lets you cross the equator, so it is in turn transmitted to either side, so we see it and the consequences of it (light, heat etc).
5. Not yet. Lose much of that complexity and you lose a lot of details. Try writing up the same number of explanations for RET, in such a way that someone who'd never heard of it could understand. It's not an easy thing to do at the best of times, and I'm still basically just starting out.
6. I'm british. Even if people vote as a joke, it apparently gets counted. (Yay for political humour).
7. Main evidence is 1. There are potential experiments, but none have been performed.

1. It has been shown DET needs lots of assumptions. Including how aether flows, why ether flows, etc. pp. For jrowe "everything follows logically" but actually, nearly everything is an assumption.
2. That's not quiet what I meant. I'll try to explain it again: Aether is defined to flow from high to low concentration. Lets imagine a place that has no aether; you cannot see it since it does not exist, there is no aether = there is no space.
Now, aether supposedly flows into there (=into nothingness), thereby not disappearing but actually creating space out of nothing. It's somehow a paradoxon; aether would supposedly flow everywhere at the same time as nowhere.
About the "you assume nothing exists". No, per definition it doesn't. But aether can make something out of nothing since nothing has lower concentration of aether than something :)
To correct the model it would be requiered to define that aether either cannot flow into no space or that no space does not exist. One more assumption.
3. I didn't quite get what you meant with that. But it rises one more question anyway: How can anything; any force; any body or whatsoever withstand the movement of space itself? It's not like air is moving or something, space ITSELF is moving. Imagine a solid 10cm thick steel beam. It can withstand a LOT of force. But if space itself moved, it wouldn't even bend. It would simply be...displaced. Every atom in the flow of aether(=space) would be moved. I'm sorry, but I really do not see how this aether thing is supposed to work.
4. So, all the sun's heat would have to pass the equator? Also interesting is that a round object (sun) inside the earth would squeeze through the equator, and when arrived at the sky form again a ball. Without actually lose any of its heat/light onto it's way towards the sky. This model simply doesn't make any sense. Why does the sun itself (inside the earth) not get displaced, if space flows?

Anyway, there is not even one diagram that describes how the world would really look like in DET. Jrowe claims it cannot be shown, but the earth I live on is observable with eyes, cameras and other sensors. So, why is DET not? What would DET look from space/far away? Like a globe? If yes, why would the funny "aether -thingy" and the "sun-inside-thingy" be necessary? It's just an overcomplication. Can DET predict anything? No, it can't. The only thing so far it could predicty would be gravity-glitches due to aether whirlpools. But a gravity-glitch has never been observed. Anyway, Jrowe claims measurements are "not constant", but how could you measure gravity/any force constantly? It's more of a philosophical problem making measurements with infinitesimal timespans in between two measurements.


To be honest, if I were you I'd rather concentrate on something that makes sense; maybe learn some maths, physics, biology or whatever instead of some flat earth model created by a maniac.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 01:47:57 PM by User324 »
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rabinoz

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2016, 02:35:28 PM »
Quote
6. I'm british. Even if people vote as a joke, it apparently gets counted. (Yay for political humour).
7. Main evidence is 1. There are potential experiments, but none have been performed.

1. It has been shown DET needs lots of assumptions. Including how aether flows, why ether flows, etc. pp. For jrowe "everything follows logically" but actually, nearly everything is an assumption.

To be honest, if I were you I'd rather concentrate on something that makes sense; maybe learn some maths, physics, biology or whatever instead of some flat earth model created by a maniac.

;D ;D Stop being so practical and "down to earth"! You'll never understand or accept DET if you insist on reality, never!  ;D ;D

Mind you, being a simple Ozzie, I ask rude questions like what are its measurements?

Presumably the distance from either pole to the equator is
almost exactly 10,000 km, and the circumference of the equator is just a bit over 40,000 km (ask any British school-kid - well, maybe not?).

So for this flat circle circumfererence = 4 x radius - intesesting! I thought π was 3.14159 etc, not 2!

??? ??? Silly me!  Looking at numbers ??? ???

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Crouton

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2016, 02:45:59 PM »

Under the model, yes, space travel's a conspiracy.


So no satellites and gps?

Now a more concrete question.  One of Jrowesceptic's experiment's predicts a jump in gravity at a certain altitude.  What altitude would you predict that jump is and how much of a jump is it?
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SpJunk

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 09:48:03 PM »
Why there are two discs, when all can be on one, top and bottom side?

How bottom side gets light while Sun is on top side during north summer / south winter?

How 10 000 kilometer radius (from pole to equator) fits 40 000 kilometer equator circumference?

Why disc(s) don't collapse under own weight into ball(s)?
(You can't measure gravitational constant G at home, but you can easily,
for yourself, prove that gravity exists: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> .)
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wise

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 10:55:38 PM »
Duh! Did she become a DE believer? unbelievable. This is madness!  Is that a dream or a real life? 1000 beavers !
Ju** is a troll homo playing role of girl.

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2016, 11:01:18 PM »
Duh! Did she become a DE believer? unbelievable. This is madness!  Is that a dream or a real life? 1000 beavers !
It seems reading OP's is not your strong suit. Then again, you claim to have ignored me, so you theoretically should not even see what I'm saying. So I guess if you "magically" figure out what is going on, maybe you don't actually ignore me.
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

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wise

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2016, 11:04:40 PM »
Duh! Did she become a DE believer? unbelievable. This is madness!  Is that a dream or a real life? 1000 beavers !
It seems reading OP's is not your strong suit. Then again, you claim to have ignored me, so you theoretically should not even see what I'm saying. So I guess if you "magically" figure out what is going on, maybe you don't actually ignore me.

I temporary cleared ignore list and gave everybody a second chance. because everyone deserves a second chance. Now the list updated with those who can not take their chance, but you are not one of them, yet. I think you should focus on the subject, not on me.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:07:55 PM by İntikam »
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zork

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2016, 12:43:32 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?
As you can't detect in any way that there is something at equator I am still confused why its equator from where earth is split two. How it was determined that its specifically equator and not for example at poles or at some other arbitrary place.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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fliggs

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 01:04:09 AM »
How can anyone take a single breath to claim DET has credibility. For goodness sake, it has TWO disks with a large gap between them that no one notices. If that weren't stupid enough we also have the dun in the MIDDLE of the earth. You can ask jrowe about any of this but his every answer is 'aether' aka 'magic'. The model is full of assumptions, none of which have any credibility whatsoever.

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Crouton

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 01:34:53 AM »
Duh! Did she become a DE believer? unbelievable. This is madness!  Is that a dream or a real life? 1000 beavers !

That's correct initkam. We had a huge back and forth that lasted for days. She insisted that the world is round but all I had to do was show her all of your unassailable arguments and highly informative diagrams. And we both saw the light. Congratulations you've made believers out of us!
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Pezevenk

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2016, 01:57:15 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?

For those unfamiliar with DET, it's JRowe's model described here.

Ask a question about the model, pose an objection you have to FET, I'll try to answer with respect to this model. May not be great to start with, but hopefully it'll develop.

? By public vote? What does that mean?
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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 08:23:58 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?

For those unfamiliar with DET, it's JRowe's model described here.

Ask a question about the model, pose an objection you have to FET, I'll try to answer with respect to this model. May not be great to start with, but hopefully it'll develop.

? By public vote? What does that mean?
There's a thread in complete nonsense where Jane gave a poll about which theory she shouldndefend next.
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

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Slemon

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2016, 08:58:18 AM »
1. It has been shown DET needs lots of assumptions. Including how aether flows, why ether flows, etc. pp. For jrowe "everything follows logically" but actually, nearly everything is an assumption.
2. That's not quiet what I meant. I'll try to explain it again: Aether is defined to flow from high to low concentration. Lets imagine a place that has no aether; you cannot see it since it does not exist, there is no aether = there is no space.
Now, aether supposedly flows into there (=into nothingness), thereby not disappearing but actually creating space out of nothing. It's somehow a paradoxon; aether would supposedly flow everywhere at the same time as nowhere.
About the "you assume nothing exists". No, per definition it doesn't. But aether can make something out of nothing since nothing has lower concentration of aether than something :)
To correct the model it would be requiered to define that aether either cannot flow into no space or that no space does not exist. One more assumption.
3. I didn't quite get what you meant with that. But it rises one more question anyway: How can anything; any force; any body or whatsoever withstand the movement of space itself? It's not like air is moving or something, space ITSELF is moving. Imagine a solid 10cm thick steel beam. It can withstand a LOT of force. But if space itself moved, it wouldn't even bend. It would simply be...displaced. Every atom in the flow of aether(=space) would be moved. I'm sorry, but I really do not see how this aether thing is supposed to work.
4. So, all the sun's heat would have to pass the equator? Also interesting is that a round object (sun) inside the earth would squeeze through the equator, and when arrived at the sky form again a ball. Without actually lose any of its heat/light onto it's way towards the sky. This model simply doesn't make any sense. Why does the sun itself (inside the earth) not get displaced, if space flows?

Anyway, there is not even one diagram that describes how the world would really look like in DET. Jrowe claims it cannot be shown, but the earth I live on is observable with eyes, cameras and other sensors. So, why is DET not? What would DET look from space/far away? Like a globe? If yes, why would the funny "aether -thingy" and the "sun-inside-thingy" be necessary? It's just an overcomplication. Can DET predict anything? No, it can't. The only thing so far it could predicty would be gravity-glitches due to aether whirlpools. But a gravity-glitch has never been observed. Anyway, Jrowe claims measurements are "not constant", but how could you measure gravity/any force constantly? It's more of a philosophical problem making measurements with infinitesimal timespans in between two measurements.


To be honest, if I were you I'd rather concentrate on something that makes sense; maybe learn some maths, physics, biology or whatever instead of some flat earth model created by a maniac.


1. How do you define assumption? Something that follows from an assumption would not necessarily be an assumption itself.
2. I'm not sure the definition of nothing you're using is feasible. You'd need there to be somewhere where there is nothing, in which case there'd be no 'nothing.' For the definition of nothing you're using, you'd still need there to be a route that aether could flow down to get there, which couldn't exist, so there's no way for it to get to this abstract 'nothing.'
3. Easiest way to think of this is with references frames. Let's have an iron bar on the ground. Frame A is from the perspective of the ground, where the Earth and bar are stationary, but aether is flowing down. Frame B is from the perspective of aether, where the ground is being pushed up, and is in turn pushing the bar.
Now, if there was a flow of aether up in the middle of the bar, then the points in space the centre of the bar occupy will move: but the bar is itself still connected to the rest of the bar. In Frame A, you've got the bar being pulled up by the centre, but the edges of the bar are themselves still being pushed down, and the forces at play would have to keep it together. You'd need a huge variance in forces to break it. In Frame B, the middle of the bar might try to move up, but as it's connected to the rest of bar, the points in space it exists in are themselves changing so the movement of those initial points isn't important, so long as enough of a force is exerted so that it can change coordinates faster than those coordinates move.
After all, objects till interact, and that's what interactions ultimately are: an alteration in the points in space that an object occupies (displacement).
4. According to the model the Sun follows an incredibly low concentration of aether out the side, so there's no distance for it to lose anything. The Sun, however, is in the centre of the upwards and downwards flow (that's where it formed, according to the model), so there's no way for it to be displaced. the forces acting on it are balanced. It just rotates on the spot, thanks to the rotating whirlpool.

The diagram isn't going to be particularly feasible because space is a variable. You'd get a map shaped more like an hourglass, and a diagram of the inside as well is like trying to fit the whole Earth into a toy globe. It's all very well to ask for something, but a perfect diagram is literally impossible to provide because of how the model works.
I'm about two weeks from a maths MSc, I've learnt plenty, I just like thinking in terms of abstract situations. It's quite a challenge actually, and a good mental exercise, especially with a model this complicated.

Mind you, being a simple Ozzie, I ask rude questions like what are its measurements?
I was never  fan of arguments like that even when I argued for RET. You measure them, let me know.
Let's say in the neighbourhood of 6-10 thousand km. I like 9480.

So no satellites and gps?

Now a more concrete question.  One of Jrowesceptic's experiment's predicts a jump in gravity at a certain altitude.  What altitude would you predict that jump is and how much of a jump is it?
Well, no satellites. GPS obviously exists, it's just reliant on stratellites (in-atmosphere equivalents to satellites).
I can't answer the latter question. There's not much maths to explain DET, and what there is depends on constants which would need to be determined by, for example, finding the altitude of a jump. I think there'd probably be one by the time you get to the roof of a regular house, it'd just be very small. There'd be more noticeable at higher altitudes.

Why there are two discs, when all can be on one, top and bottom side?

How bottom side gets light while Sun is on top side during north summer / south winter?

How 10 000 kilometer radius (from pole to equator) fits 40 000 kilometer equator circumference?

Why disc(s) don't collapse under own weight into ball(s)?
(You can't measure gravitational constant G at home, but you can easily,
for yourself, prove that gravity exists: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> .)

There would be one disc if not for the flow of aether: this creates a chamber of sorts inside the one disc, essentially splitting it, creating distance between them.
The Sun is in fact between the discs. The same flow that lets people cross the equator also allows the Sun to be seen above and below the Earth, at a higher altitude. Then you also have the Earth slowly tilting to contend with, which means the exact inclination of the Sun will seem to vary.
Those distances would be wrong, as most FE models say.
As for gravity, ask me again when the search function hasn't crashed. FEers have probably talked about the Cavendish experiment plenty of times. One thing I remember seeing was that the experiment proved only that the metals involved exerted such a force, rather than that masses did so.

As you can't detect in any way that there is something at equator I am still confused why its equator from where earth is split two. How it was determined that its specifically equator and not for example at poles or at some other arbitrary place.
This split is what causes circumpolar stars and the Coriolis force to change directions, so it must be the equator. You can't detect the transition of walking across it, but the two discs are still in different positions.

How can anyone take a single breath to claim DET has credibility. For goodness sake, it has TWO disks with a large gap between them that no one notices. If that weren't stupid enough we also have the dun in the MIDDLE of the earth. You can ask jrowe about any of this but his every answer is 'aether' aka 'magic'. The model is full of assumptions, none of which have any credibility whatsoever.
The problem with claiming a lack of credibility is that you need to do more than insult. Aether isn't magic, it's actually a pretty simple, fun idea. In-model, it's no more ridiculous than answering questions about day, night, the Earth's formation, tides... with 'gravity.'

? By public vote? What does that mean?
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=67956.0
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Aliveandkicking

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 09:07:03 AM »
Well, no satellites. GPS obviously exists, it's just reliant on stratellites (in-atmosphere equivalents to satellites).

Janes usual handwaving that we have to take as fact, even though common sense is going to tell you they cannot be in the atmosphere and still enable you to calculate your correct position.

Apparently though, you have to spend the next 5 years trying to learn the model before you can point that out.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 09:20:36 AM by Aliveandkicking »

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Aliveandkicking

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 09:12:39 AM »
This split is what causes circumpolar stars and the Coriolis force to change directions, so it must be the equator. You can't detect the transition of walking across it, but the two discs are still in different positions.

The stars do not change direction.   If you face north they go one way and if you face south they are still going the same way but you are 180 degrees rotated.

Yes, everything else is working the other way in a real way.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 09:17:11 AM by Aliveandkicking »

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 09:24:53 AM »
LEARN THE FUCKING MODEL!
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

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Aliveandkicking

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2016, 09:35:49 AM »
LEARN THE FUCKING MODEL!

Is that really necessary?  there are children watching:


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zork

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2016, 10:05:23 AM »
As you can't detect in any way that there is something at equator I am still confused why its equator from where earth is split two. How it was determined that its specifically equator and not for example at poles or at some other arbitrary place.
This split is what causes circumpolar stars and the Coriolis force to change directions, so it must be the equator. You can't detect the transition of walking across it, but the two discs are still in different positions.
Sure, its default assumption as there are differences in hemipheres. But why can't aether move in ways that earth is split at poles and center of stars rotation is where aether exits? Or I am sure someone can think out why it can be at 45 degrees for example.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2016, 10:20:23 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?

For those unfamiliar with DET, it's JRowe's model described here.

Ask a question about the model, pose an objection you have to FET, I'll try to answer with respect to this model. May not be great to start with, but hopefully it'll develop.

? By public vote? What does that mean?
There's a thread in complete nonsense where Jane gave a poll about which theory she shouldndefend next.

It's not in Complete Nonsense it's in FE General https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=67956.0 

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2016, 11:20:39 AM »
1. How do you define assumption? Something that follows from an assumption would not necessarily be an assumption itself.
2. I'm not sure the definition of nothing you're using is feasible. You'd need there to be somewhere where there is nothing, in which case there'd be no 'nothing.' For the definition of nothing you're using, you'd still need there to be a route that aether could flow down to get there, which couldn't exist, so there's no way for it to get to this abstract 'nothing.'
3. Easiest way to think of this is with references frames. Let's have an iron bar on the ground. Frame A is from the perspective of the ground, where the Earth and bar are stationary, but aether is flowing down. Frame B is from the perspective of aether, where the ground is being pushed up, and is in turn pushing the bar.
Now, if there was a flow of aether up in the middle of the bar, then the points in space the centre of the bar occupy will move: but the bar is itself still connected to the rest of the bar. In Frame A, you've got the bar being pulled up by the centre, but the edges of the bar are themselves still being pushed down, and the forces at play would have to keep it together. You'd need a huge variance in forces to break it. In Frame B, the middle of the bar might try to move up, but as it's connected to the rest of bar, the points in space it exists in are themselves changing so the movement of those initial points isn't important, so long as enough of a force is exerted so that it can change coordinates faster than those coordinates move.
After all, objects till interact, and that's what interactions ultimately are: an alteration in the points in space that an object occupies (displacement).
4. According to the model the Sun follows an incredibly low concentration of aether out the side, so there's no distance for it to lose anything. The Sun, however, is in the centre of the upwards and downwards flow (that's where it formed, according to the model), so there's no way for it to be displaced. the forces acting on it are balanced. It just rotates on the spot, thanks to the rotating whirlpool.

The diagram isn't going to be particularly feasible because space is a variable. You'd get a map shaped more like an hourglass, and a diagram of the inside as well is like trying to fit the whole Earth into a toy globe. It's all very well to ask for something, but a perfect diagram is literally impossible to provide because of how the model works.
I'm about two weeks from a maths MSc, I've learnt plenty, I just like thinking in terms of abstract situations. It's quite a challenge actually, and a good mental exercise, especially with a model this complicated.

1.   Good question. I don’t know. I’d say an assumption is something that is neither observable nor proveable. I agree with you. But something based on an assumption is still an assumption, even though it is not necessarily a new assumption. Still, e.g. assuming that there is aether doesn’t mean that this aether can flow nor that it flows. So, in this case I’d say there are two assumptions made, (i) aether exists and (ii) aether does flow.
2.   Yep, and that’s the funny thing about aether. It would simultaneously flow everywhere and nowhere. The aether-paradoxon I’ll call it from now on.
Anyway, the aether wouldn’t need a „route“ or something to flow there. There wouldn’t be really a border between „nothing“ and „something“. "Nothing" is just the abscence of something, it's no phyiscal place since there is no space/aether.
What would happen: I’d imagine it as an explosion where the whole aether would instantly "explode" as it flows into nothing and creates something. So, aether is somehow god, one could say.
3.   You are treating aether like it’s water. But it isn’t, aether is SPACE. What you are describing would mean that an iron bar would stop the flow of aether. Or in other words, space(=iron bar) would stop the flow of space(=aether).
4.   I think you realize yourself how ridiculous this sounds.
Anyway, have you ever thought what low and high concentration of aether would mean?

Quote
The diagram isn't going to be particularly feasible because space is a variable. You'd get a map shaped more like an hourglass, and a diagram of the inside as well is like trying to fit the whole Earth into a toy globe. It's all very well to ask for something, but a perfect diagram is literally impossible to provide because of how the model works.
I'm about two weeks from a maths MSc, I've learnt plenty, I just like thinking in terms of abstract situations. It's quite a challenge actually, and a good mental exercise, especially with a model this complicated.
I don’t want a perfect diagram. Even if a whole globe doesn’t fit on a toy globe, a toy model of a globe can still be manufactured. So to say: Show me a toy DE :)
May I ask you : Which university are you attending ? I’d of course understand if you don’t want to say it.


Overall Jrowes model is really the work of a maniac. His model tries really hard to explain things, but there is no underlying logic in it as we have it with globe earth. There is no way, anything could be calculated, any orbits, any eclipse, you couldn’t even calculate sunset or sunrise. It’s all just „aether!“ without any logical foundation. Read my thread about the bird-shaped world. His model includes about the same amount of logic as my model does. You could invent simply ANY model that jumps into your mind and defend it by creating/inventing more and more. Still, this model wouldn’t be correct or make any sense ; it’d just be a (useless) thought experiment.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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SpJunk

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Re: Ask me About DET!
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2016, 11:36:57 AM »
There would be one disc if not for the flow of aether: this creates a chamber of sorts inside the one disc, essentially splitting it, creating distance between them.

The Sun is in fact between the discs. The same flow that lets people cross the equator also allows the Sun to be seen above and below the Earth, at a higher altitude.
Then you also have the Earth slowly tilting to contend with, which means the exact inclination of the Sun will seem to vary.

Those distances would be wrong, as most FE models say.

As for gravity, ask me again when the search function hasn't crashed. FEers have probably talked about the Cavendish experiment plenty of times. One thing I remember seeing was that the experiment proved only that the metals involved exerted such a force, rather than that masses did so.

For distances, they may say they are wrong, but let them try to say it to real geodesist, or navigator, or meteorologist, or astronomer...
Finally, it shows we have more conspirators around than ordinary people.

For gravity, I don't rely on forum's search routines.
Try on Google.
Search for something like "flat earth society cavendish experiment".
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

"Your lack of simplicity is main reason why not many people would bother to try to understand you." - S.M.