Prove That Antarctica Is A Continent.

That $60/hr you are so proud of 'or else people die' looks pretty

Wait...wot?  If you don't pay him $60/hr he starts killing people??

Aliveandkicking - "A compass becomes fairly useless within many hundreds of miles of the pole."

Aliveandkicking - "OK I learn't a compass can be used if the appropriate corrections are applied but it  would not be used if celestial navigation is possible."

N30 - "Exactly why is celestial navigation not possible with a compass, then?"

Omega - "Perhaps because the stars are in the sky, and not on the compass?"

N30 - "All one truly needs to navigate celestially is to look up and use their eyes."

Aliveandkicking - "You wanted to know why a compass would not be accurate at the poles.
You then became confused between navigating with reference to celestial objects and navigating using a north pointing needle. You did not appear to know what was meant by celestial."

Fliggs - "Just a little stunned by N30 and the level of ignorance on display. He appears to not understand... well anything really. Nothing at all."

Well, I am not seeing any evidence of that last quote!
Also, Aliveandkicking just admitted that many websites about navigating with a compass are lying and conflicting!!!
Keep in mind his first two quotes about compasses, then read the following excerpts.

1."Assuming that the compass is held flat, the red end points to north, and the white end to south. An interesting detail is that there are northern- and southern-hemisphere compasses. And, very rarely, the magnetization of the compass needle may reverse, so that the south end now points to north."

2."If you were to take a compass and stand just over either the north or the south magnetic pole, you would see the compass spin freely. From the south pole, every direction is north and from the north pole, there is no north."

Excerpt 1. - http://web.williams.edu/Biology/Faculty_Staff/hwilliams/Orienteering/compass.html
               2. - http://starryskies.com/Artshtml/dln/8-97/compass.html

Until now, Aliveandkicking assumed a compass does not work "many hundreds of miles of the pole".
Please explain why there is so much conflicting information regarding the poles and geomagnetic Earth!

Quote

Aliveandkicking - "A compass becomes fairly useless within many hundreds of miles of the pole."

Aliveandkicking - "OK I learn't a compass can be used if the appropriate corrections are applied but it  would not be used if celestial navigation is possible."

N30 - "Exactly why is celestial navigation not possible with a compass, then?"

Omega - "Perhaps because the stars are in the sky, and not on the compass?"

N30 - "All one truly needs to navigate celestially is to look up and use their eyes."

Aliveandkicking - "You wanted to know why a compass would not be accurate at the poles.
You then became confused between navigating with reference to celestial objects and navigating using a north pointing needle. You did not appear to know what was meant by celestial."

Fliggs - "Just a little stunned by N30 and the level of ignorance on display. He appears to not understand... well anything really. Nothing at all."

Well, I am not seeing any evidence of that last quote!
Also, Aliveandkicking just admitted that many websites about navigating with a compass are lying and conflicting!!!
Keep in mind his first two quotes about compasses, then read the following excerpts.

Quote

1."Assuming that the compass is held flat, the red end points to north, and the white end to south. An interesting detail is that there are northern- and southern-hemisphere compasses. And, very rarely, the magnetization of the compass needle may reverse, so that the south end now points to north."

2."If you were to take a compass and stand just over either the north or the south magnetic pole, you would see the compass spin freely. From the south pole, every direction is north and from the north pole, there is no north."

Excerpt 1. - http://web.williams.edu/Biology/Faculty_Staff/hwilliams/Orienteering/compass.html
               2. - http://starryskies.com/Artshtml/dln/8-97/compass.html

Until now, Aliveandkicking assumed a compass does not work "many hundreds of miles of the pole".
Please explain why there is so much conflicting information regarding the poles and geomagnetic Earth!

I am not sure what you are getting at.

It is well known a compass is unreliable in the polar regions however that might depend upon how much information you have about the Earths magnetic field when you are travelling. ALSO magnetic storms high in the atmosphere, which mainly only happen near the poles, can make the reading errattic, and also 'the horizontal component of the earths magnetic field is most weakest near the poles' .

Necessarily the first people to reach the south pole would not have much information about the earths magnetic field and they would not have a map.

I am not saying people are lying.   

There is nothing to hide here.  Prior to accurate directional gyro compasses being built in the 1950's it was not considered possible to reliably or safely fly a plane along a great circle route from scandanavia to Alaska.

There is no smoking gun here. 

Aliveandkicking - "A compass becomes fairly useless within many hundreds of miles of the pole."

Aliveandkicking - "OK I learn't a compass can be used if the appropriate corrections are applied but it  would not be used if celestial navigation is possible."

Aliveandkicking - "It is well known a compass is unreliable in the polar regions"

Aliveandkicking - "I am not saying people are lying. There is nothing to hide here."

^
Well, I AM saying people are lying, you!
Astoundingly you have contradicted yourself twice in the same thread!
Cmon, which is it? Do they work at the poles or not?
Keep in mind these quotes are in chronological order!
Obviously there IS something to hide there.

Quote

Aliveandkicking - "A compass becomes fairly useless within many hundreds of miles of the pole."

Aliveandkicking - "OK I learn't a compass can be used if the appropriate corrections are applied but it  would not be used if celestial navigation is possible."

Aliveandkicking - "It is well known a compass is unreliable in the polar regions"

Aliveandkicking - "I am not saying people are lying. There is nothing to hide here."

^
Well, I AM saying people are lying, you!
Astoundingly you have contradicted yourself twice in the same thread!
Cmon, which is it? Do they work at the poles or not?
Keep in mind these quotes are in chronological order!
Obviously there IS something to hide there.

I am not lying and there is nothing to hide

1. I began by saying it is well known a compass is unreliable near the poles but I did not know the real reason for that .   I thought it was because the magnetic field was going all over the place. 
2. By googling it seemed the magnetic field was fairly stable but the story about scott using celestial navigation emphasised it was not possible to accurately know the position of the true pole using a compass.
3. Finally i just learnt the real reason for the compass being unreliable near the poles is mainly due to magnetic storms.

There is also the consideration that when you get near the poles and you are moving rapidly the compass heading changes too quickly for the navigator to be able to plot the course and provide the pilot with useful information.

Either way it is totally clear it is common knowledge and something i have heard since i was a boy scout decades ago that use of a compass at least in the far north where most explorers have gone until quite recently is unreliable.

"I began by saying it is well known a compass is unreliable near the poles but I did not know the real reason for that.

Why would I trust anything you admitted that your statements have NO BASIS IN EVIDENCE!

"Finally i just learnt the real reason for the compass being unreliable near the poles is mainly due to magnetic storms."

Even this is obviously a lie, as "magnetic storms" occur hundreds of years apart!!! What about the rest of the time??

A compass aligns itself with the magnetic field lines.  Therefore, anywhere on the earth which has a substantial amount of magnetic inclination will make the declination difficult or impossible to resolve.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 06, 2016, 02:01:30 PM

"I began by saying it is well known a compass is unreliable near the poles but I did not know the real reason for that.

Why would I trust anything you admitted that your statements have NO BASIS IN EVIDENCE!

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 06, 2016, 02:01:30 PM

"Finally i just learnt the real reason for the compass being unreliable near the poles is mainly due to magnetic storms."

Even this is obviously a lie, as "magnetic storms" occur hundreds of years apart!!! What about the rest of the time??

Magnetic storms are common place events.  You are thinking I am supposing of the carrington event which was very likely a massive ginormous highly unusual magnetic storm

When was the last geomagnetic storm, and where was it?

When was the last geomagnetic storm, and where was it?

https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/news/view/222/20160508-strong-g3-geomagnetic-storm



Top 50 storms of 2016 on this page:

https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/auroral-activity/top-50-geomagnetic-storms/year/2016

So:

1.  As we near the geomagnetic poles the compass becomes unreliable

2.  As we near the geomagetic poles the magnetic fields dip downwards and the available to use component of the force in the horizontal plane is reduced so the force we can measure reduces - although a special compass can be made which compensates for that at least in some manner.   

3. As we near the geomagnetic poles there is a totally useless zone and another erratic zone for a given amount of available magnetism on the day.

4.  As we near the geomagnetic poles and the horizontally available component weakens then other local magnetic objects or objects we are carrying with us cause the compass to swing.   An accurate compass on a moving object which has metal in it has to be 'swung' to compensate it for the objects own magnetism and so to travel in all regions of the world you would have to have a compensated compass for your vehicle made for all regions of the world.  Ie you need to carry many compasses.

4. Geomagetic storms (which today are predictable) can make the compass unreliable over a much larger area.

Nothing is being hidden or lied about by me.

A compass aligns itself with the magnetic field lines.

Yes.

Therefore, anywhere on the earth which has a substantial amount of magnetic inclination

Yes.

will make the declination difficult or impossible to resolve.

Maybe difficult (I haven't done it personally) but certainly not impossible
Here are the 2015 declination and inclination maps for Australia:
From Australian Geomagnetic Reference Field Values.
Though rather trying to interpolate maps like this it is probably better to find declination (or variation) and inclination (or dip angle) from online calculators as the one on that site. From that calculator we can get this sort of result:
Australian Geomagnetic Reference Field Computation

Requested: Latitude -90° 00' 00", Longitude 135o 00' 00", Elevation 2.7 km, Date 2016/09/7
Calculated: Latitude -90.0000°, Longitude +135.0000°, Elevation 2.70 km, Epoch 2016.6831

Location is outside the AGRF area. A global field model has been used
Magnetic Field Components
       D = -165.322 deg
        I = -72.221 deg
    dD = -0.179 deg/yr
     dI = 0.039 deg/yr

Yes, pretty massive declination and inclination at the Geographic South Pole, but appropriately weighted magnetic compasses can be used.

Quote from: Aliveandkicking on September 06, 2016, 02:01:30 PM

"I began by saying it is well known a compass is unreliable near the poles but I did not know the real reason for that.

Why would I trust anything you admitted that your statements have NO BASIS IN EVIDENCE

Yo N30, so glad you finally see reason.

Where is the evidence for project blue beam?

Quote from: Ski on September 06, 2016, 03:23:31 PM

A compass aligns itself with the magnetic field lines.

Yes.

Quote from: Ski

Therefore, anywhere on the earth which has a substantial amount of magnetic inclination

Yes.

Quote from: Ski

will make the declination difficult or impossible to resolve.

Maybe difficult (I haven't done it personally) but certainly not impossible
Here are the 2015 declination and inclination maps for Australia:

From Australian Geomagnetic Reference Field Values.
Though rather trying to interpolate maps like this it is probably better to find declination (or variation) and inclination (or dip angle) from online calculators as the one on that site. From that calculator we can get this sort of result:
Australian Geomagnetic Reference Field Computation

Quote

Requested: Latitude -90° 00' 00", Longitude 135o 00' 00", Elevation 2.7 km, Date 2016/09/7
Calculated: Latitude -90.0000°, Longitude +135.0000°, Elevation 2.70 km, Epoch 2016.6831

Location is outside the AGRF area. A global field model has been used
Magnetic Field Components
       D = -165.322 deg
        I = -72.221 deg
    dD = -0.179 deg/yr
     dI = 0.039 deg/yr

Yes, pretty massive declination and inclination at the Geographic South Pole, but appropriately weighted magnetic compasses can be used.

>> I = -72.221 deg

If you weight the compass needle you are still losing a very large amount of the force required to turn the needle.    Which means other objects you are carrying which are slightly magnetic are going to increasingly interfere with the compass and cause it to swing more as you get closer.   

>> I = -72.221 deg

If you weight the compass needle you are still losing a very large amount of the force required to turn the needle.    Which means other objects you are carrying which are slightly magnetic are going to increasingly interfere with the compass and cause it to swing more as you get closer.

True, and the extra weight on the needle would increase friction. Still, see

Navigation in Antarctica
This week at Mawson: 1 November 2013
In the days before Global Positioning Satellites, or GPS, were invented, land navigation in Antarctica was a real challenge. Magnetic compasses, sun compasses, sextants, and dead reckoning were all used by the Antarctic traveller, but each method had its own unique drawbacks. Even modern day GPS can have problems. Coverage at the higher latitudes is limited to certain, yet predictable, hours of the day. At times, accuracy is diminished by the low incident angles of the satellites to the horizon.

Magnetic compasses must be modified for use in high polar latitudes by re-weighting the needle. As the compass gets closer to the South Pole, the south-seeking end of the needle is pulled downward toward the earth and will drag on its enclosure unless the proper non-magnetic counterweight (copper wire) is added to the north-seeking end.

From Navigation in Antarctica.

N30 is just a  troll.  He is very different to the usual crew of mentally deranged nutters. He uses the standard ploys trolls typically use because while some trolls can be very bright, their emotional intelligence is at the other end of the scale.

N30 is just a  troll.  He is very different to the usual crew of mentally deranged nutters. He uses the standard ploys trolls typically use because while some trolls can be very bright, their emotional intelligence is at the other end of the scale.

I do not think he is a troll.  I think he really believes there is this massive conspiracy.   His behaviour towards me seems to very realistically fit someone who is outraged that I should attempt to fool him as he sees it.

Trolls are just stupid.   For example jroa.  There is no intelligent behaviour there at all he just wants to frustrate.

Quote from: fliggs on September 06, 2016, 03:24:03 AM

That $60/hr you are so proud of 'or else people die' looks pretty

Wait...wot?  If you don't pay him $60/hr he starts killing people??

Wait, what?

You mean this post fliggs?

$60 AUD an hour with a car, fuel and mobile phone is nothing to brag about I agree, but slightly better than a checkout operator.

I just think youre a total scumbag tbth, well enough of that, you keep it up man.

Edit.

The only reason I brought up my wage is that you seem to think MI people cannot keep real jobs.

I have Bipolar and do just fine thankyou.

Noob.

Go gaslight people more fliggs, you're not even pretending you're not posting here for your own sick sense of self satisfaction.

He could be hospitalised... involuntarily.

it would fit.

Is your sense of self worth really so low you have to chime in with this two cents of wisdom?

Is your sense of self worth really so low you have to chime in with this two cents of wisdom?

I think I was just describing people like this on my last post.....Nice to have a little extra time to play here the last couple days. The last month I was swamped, missed all the non sense.

(1) The magnetic poles (both ends) are not located at the astronomical poles - that is, the axis poles.  The magnetic poles are about a 100 miles distant from the axis and tend to wander a few miles every year.

(2) Contrary to the assertion in the first message on this thread, the US did not abandon the Antarctic.  Mineral (incl. petroleum) opportunities underneath the Antarctic are uncertain but considered probable (perhaps by optimists); another problem is the possible militarization of the South Pole.  The area was only touched by Captain Cook in 1772, explored only at the edges in the 19th century, and not fully explored until the 20th century.  It has not no native human population, and the explorations were mostly by people from countries from the Northern Hemisphere - not a nearby country like Chile.  Several countries - including Argentine, Chile, New Zealand, Australia, as well as UK, France, and Norway - have made territorial claims on Antarctica (apparently the USA is not among the claimants).  In 1959 the US, the then-USSR, the various claimants, and other countries, signed the Antarctic Treaty which prohibited any militization of Antarctica, promoted "scientific" projects under the supervision of sponsoring countries, promoted international cooperation and ignored territorial claims, etc.

The US and several other countries have scientific projects of various kinds in operation on Antarctica almost continuously.  Inasmuch as Antarctica is about the size of North America (which pretty much establishes it as a continent), and the entire climate is generally hostile, casual visitors to the inland are not encouraged as any rescue efforts fall upon the personnel at the farflung science outposts.  However, there have been plenty of journalists and others (including returned members of science projects) who have seen much of the inland, even flown over it.

As far as I know, oil drilling is not taking place around Antarctica, which is fine  by me as whenever it was done in the Arctic it leaked and spilled and was never cleaned up.  However there is a very active fishing industry around the Antarctic coastline.

Lots of ships have cruised entirely around Antarctica, a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia.  This is proof that Antarctica is not spread over the circumference of the Flat Earth, surrounding us.

"Inasmuch as Antarctica is about the size of North America...."
"Lots of ships have cruised entirely around Antarctica, a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia.  This is proof that Antarctica is not spread over the circumference of the Flat Earth, surrounding us."

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF IT THE SIZE OF NORTH AMERICA???

Quote from: Cartog on September 07, 2016, 07:44:23 AM

"Inasmuch as Antarctica is about the size of North America...."
"Lots of ships have cruised entirely around Antarctica, a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia.  This is proof that Antarctica is not spread over the circumference of the Flat Earth, surrounding us."

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF IT THE SIZE OF NORTH AMERICA???

Antarctica is much smaller than North america

The coastline of Australia is probably a bit longer than that of Antarctica

From NASA... WAKE UP!

From NASA... WAKE UP!

Why would NASA tell us to wake up?

From NASA... WAKE UP!

Bravo!

N30, can I get an autograph?

From NASA... WAKE UP!

Last I checked North America is quite a bit bigger than the continental US.

Quote from: N30 on September 07, 2016, 01:26:11 PM

From NASA... WAKE UP!

Last I checked North America is quite a bit bigger than the continental US.

"Inasmuch as Antarctica is about the size of North America...."
"Lots of ships have cruised entirely around Antarctica, a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia.  This is proof that Antarctica is not spread over the circumference of the Flat Earth, surrounding us."

a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia

Alright, make up your mind then, which one is bigger, Australia or North America (USA, Canada, and Mexico together) ? 

Quote from: frenat on September 07, 2016, 05:06:44 PM

Last I checked North America is quite a bit bigger than the continental US.

Quote from: Cartog on September 07, 2016, 07:44:23 AM

"Inasmuch as Antarctica is about the size of North America...."
"Lots of ships have cruised entirely around Antarctica, a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia.  This is proof that Antarctica is not spread over the circumference of the Flat Earth, surrounding us."

a trip of a matter of weeks, and it requires less fuel and mileage than circumnavigating Australia

Alright, make up your mind then, which one is bigger, Australia or North America (USA, Canada, and Mexico together) ? 

Areas and circumnavigation distances:

REGION		Area		Distance to Circumnavigate
Antarctica		14 million km2		about  23,300 km or 14,460 miles
United States of America		9.857 million km2
Australia		7.692 million km2		about 12,400 km or 7,700 miles

No need to drag Canada and Mexico into it. The USA alone is bigger in area than Australia.

These distances for circumnavigation are not necessarily the coastline lengths. The distance depends on how close you sail to the coast.
This is especially relevant to Antarctica where there is likely to be ice and extreme weather close to the coast, but this is where the cruise ships want to be.

"The coastline of Australia is probably a bit longer than that of Antarctica"

You are only proving my point... Probably- here having the meaning of "I really have no idea."

North America has a whole bunch of jagged coastlines and stuff, while Antarctica is lush more round.

Message to sane and honest true-earthers: 
Notice the perimeter of the map below.  Notice how this view of the globe cuts out at the 45degree latitude and not at the equator as you would expect from a spheroid.   

From NASA... WAKE UP!