Flat earth & Religion

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Flat earth & Religion
« on: August 11, 2016, 04:33:57 AM »
Is it possible for one without the other? I for one don't believe in any sort of god but it seems a lot of flat earth revolves around a god. Any other non religious believers?

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 08:25:00 AM »
Yes, it IS possible to be Atheistic or Agnostic and Flat Earth. I am none of the three, and think all such ideas are ridiculous. But I would suggest that the MAJORITY of the Flat Earthers here ARE Atheist or Agnostic.

Now to be fair: The founder of modern Flat Earthism, Samuel B. Rowbotham, aka Parallax, author of Earth Not a Globe, was a devout Christian and spends a good part of his book explaining just how the Bible should supposedly be interpreted to accept and justify Flat Earth ideas.

In fact I would say that the majority of PEOPLE on this site are Atheist/Agnostic, irrespective of their thoughts on their shape of the planet. The next highest list of people would be those identifying with Christianity, followed by Muslims, followed by Jews. I myself am a recent convert from Judaism to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

In brief explanation of that, there are several different Lutheran Churches in the USA. The largest is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). They are a "quatenus" Church, which means they subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions contained in the Book of Concord "insofar" as they agree with Scripture. Since they feel that way about the Confessions, they can pretty much do what they like, and that means that marrying two men or two women, ordaining lady clergy, or even partnered gay people, is A-OK.

The Missouri Synod is a "quia" Church. This means we subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions "because" they agree with Scripture. Which means our conduct must be restricted to that which the Confessions and the whole of Scripture dictate. So no weird stuff, like men marrying men, or girlie clergy, or homosexual clergy that are playing "hide the sausage" with their buddy, or anything like that.

There are many "quia" Churches. Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is one (WELS), ELS is another (Evangelical Lutheran Synod), and several more. They all believe ESSENTIALLY the same thing. The separation into different Churches tends to be an ethnic thing more than anything else. For example, the ELS are a small Church made up mostly of a bunch of stiff lipped Norwegians in Minnesota. The Missouri Synod (far and away the largest "quia" Church) is largely German, as is WELS.

Now, the Confessional "quia" Churches have issues with ELCA, simply because in our minds, you can't simply think being gay is a good thing, and women at the altar is cool. So this IS a conservative/liberal thing.

There is one more Church that deserves mention. Lutheran Congregations for Missions in Christ, LCMC. They appear to be confessionalist as at least according to their website. They are a small Church that broke off from ELCA in about 2009 when in fact the decision was made to allow same-sex marriage and practicing gay clergy. The breakoff occurred right here in my own part of the country, so I saw it occur first hand. It was interesting. But they weren't quite as conservative as LCMS or other Confessionalist Churches, insofar as they do have lady clergy. They have left that choice or not up to the congregation.

So there you are. Hope all that helps. And the explanation of Lutheranism wasn't just for our new reader. It was for our old readers just as much, who will read this text, and wonder about a Jew becoming Christian. That will answer at least a few doctrinal questions.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:38:08 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 12:06:43 PM »
I am willing to bet the proportion of Flat Earthers correlates directly to quality of education.

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 12:48:51 PM »
One would assume so, yes. But in this forum, I have encountered some FEer's that do appear to have degrees. Granted, that cannot be proven, but they do claim it, and some of them write like they do. Having obtained two BA's and one MA myself, and having taught University as well, I am able to often tell if a person is, or is likely to have been, University educated. Of course, I am not the Pope, and thus do not even CLAIM infallibility, so I could therefore be wrong in certain cases, but I think you see my point.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 01:28:12 PM »
True, many FE'ers on THIS forum at least give the appearance of being educated (Ski and John Davis come to mind in particular) but on a global scale, I would assume the greatest concentration of Flat Earthers exists in the mideast and sub-Saharan Africa

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 01:36:54 PM »
True, many FE'ers on THIS forum at least give the appearance of being educated (Ski and John Davis come to mind in particular) but on a global scale, I would assume the greatest concentration of Flat Earthers exists in the mideast and sub-Saharan Africa
I'll have to disagree slightly. People in Sub-Saharan Africa may believe the earth is flat because they don't know any better, but if someone told them it was round, and gave them a few minutes, they would believe it was round. The "flat earthers" are the people who refuse evidence. While they may be uneducated, they are also stubborn enough to fail to see what they don't know.
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

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TheRealBillNye

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 01:41:44 PM »
True, many FE'ers on THIS forum at least give the appearance of being educated (Ski and John Davis come to mind in particular) but on a global scale, I would assume the greatest concentration of Flat Earthers exists in the mideast and sub-Saharan Africa
I'll have to disagree slightly. People in Sub-Saharan Africa may believe the earth is flat because they don't know any better, but if someone told them it was round, and gave them a few minutes, they would believe it was round. The "flat earthers" are the people who refuse evidence. While they may be uneducated, they are also stubborn enough to fail to see what they don't know.
Possibly. I have never tried to teach an African about the globe earth, so I cannot comment.

The point that they are uneducated is the point I was trying to make. On this earth, the vast majority of Flat Earthers are uneducated.

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neutrino

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2016, 09:03:00 AM »
I myself am a recent convert from Judaism to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
איך הרשת לעצמך?

FET is religion. No evidence will convince a FE-er. It would be easier to convince Muslims they are wrong.

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2016, 09:39:09 AM »
I myself am a recent convert from Judaism to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
איך הרשת לעצמך?

Ah, what? Why is the question mark at the right end of the sentence, when Hebrew reads from Right to Left? Now, I never really learned how to read Hebrew that well as a kid (a lot of American Jews have that problem), but I am not a total idiot. Remember, I was in a COMPLETELY non-Observant household. In fact, my first relationship with religion was with Catholic Christianity, both Roman and Anglican. I almost became a Priest and Monk.

Becoming a Lutheran is for very personal reasons. It follows a circle that completes one Eternal Round. I don't know that anyone will get it, and I know I don't mind whether they do or not. I was an Observant Jew for 11 years of my life. So I know more about the theology of the thing than I do the language of the thing.

But the question roughly translates as "How do you network yourself?" What does that even mean, anyway? I am not sure I get it.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2016, 11:24:49 AM »
Is it possible for one without the other? I for one don't believe in any sort of god but it seems a lot of flat earth revolves around a god. Any other non religious believers?

There are so many threads about this subject already  >:(

Flat earthers are just as likely to be religious as any other group of people. There are more religious roundies posting on this forum than religious FEers.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2016, 12:21:52 PM »
Is it possible for one without the other? I for one don't believe in any sort of god but it seems a lot of flat earth revolves around a god. Any other non religious believers?

There are so many threads about this subject already  >:(

Flat earthers are just as likely to be religious as any other group of people. There are more religious roundies posting on this forum than religious FEers.

That is probably true, now I think about it.

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neutrino

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2016, 03:22:21 PM »
Good day Yaakov, well, I was sure you are a native Hebrew speaker. So the phrase is "How could you allow yourself to do it?". THe question mark is on right because I used right justification. wasn't sure if this forum allows right-to-left languages.

So you did answer it anyway :) Well, I must admit, I'm a bit surprised. Me too passed through orthodox Judaism and now I'm a total agnostic. I don't have anything against any religion though. Well, maybe a bit against Islam for the known stuff...  But not more than that.

Let me ask, are you a FET believer?
FET is religion. No evidence will convince a FE-er. It would be easier to convince Muslims they are wrong.

Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2016, 03:29:28 PM »
Good day Yaakov, well, I was sure you are a native Hebrew speaker. So the phrase is "How could you allow yourself to do it?". THe question mark is on right because I used right justification. wasn't sure if this forum allows right-to-left languages.

I honestly don't know if the forum permits it or not. I am a Jew ethnically, but my family was COMPLETELY non-Observant, so my experience has been heavily Christian, followed by Orthodox Judaism, and now Christianity. Its a long story.

Quote
So you did answer it anyway :) Well, I must admit, I'm a bit surprised. Me too passed through orthodox Judaism and now I'm a total agnostic. I don't have anything against any religion though. Well, maybe a bit against Islam for the known stuff...  But not more than that.

Let me ask, are you a FET believer?

I have quite a bit against Islam because it likes to blow crap up. But beyond them, I don't have issues with Religions. I am not FET believer, no. I believe in RET. But I don't deny, I find the theories endlessly fascinating.

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fliggs

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2016, 02:00:35 AM »
I am willing to bet the proportion of Flat Earthers correlates directly to quality of education.

I think that is an inadequate correlation. It should be Education+intelligence+mental health. EVidence on this site would suggest they rate very low on all three indicators.

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Username

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 05:10:47 AM »
Yes yes, we all know you love to call us stupid, ignorant, and mentally ill.

What interests me is that you hold this opinion out of no evidence, or at least none you wish to share. This leads me to believe you take such matters on faith and against reason and logic, making you likely the unwitting example of what you attack.

f yu can't argue argue both sides, you understand neith.er

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JacobLaw

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2016, 06:50:16 AM »
Yes yes, we all know you love to call us stupid, ignorant, and mentally ill.

What interests me is that you hold this opinion out of no evidence, or at least none you wish to share. This leads me to believe you take such matters on faith and against reason and logic, making you likely the unwitting example of what you attack.

LOL, and that a basTARDized definition of "faith" FAITH actual definition would be a noun form because "faith" is substance and evidence (see) Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is a noun not a verb
Even his faith is screwed up.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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fliggs

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2016, 03:21:13 AM »
Yes yes, we all know you love to call us stupid, ignorant, and mentally ill.

What interests me is that you hold this opinion out of no evidence, or at least none you wish to share. This leads me to believe you take such matters on faith and against reason and logic, making you likely the unwitting example of what you attack.

No evidence?

Well let's look at the evidence.
The typical FEer has almost no mathematical skills emanating from an abysmally low level of education
The typical FEer has almost no ability whatsoever to formulate a logical argument. They violate almost every rule of logic.
The typical FEer exhibits many of the classic symptoms of schizophrenia and usually the paranoid-delusional version. eg they hear voices or believe that they are in possession of 'special knowledge' that naturally they cannot pass on or even explain. their understanding of the physical world is often contrary to observed facts.

As a published researcher in the field of abnormal psychology, FEers simply scream out paranoid schizophenia and often with narcissistic personality disorder. You for example are very clearly in that category. I will grant that you seem intelligent but you definitely fail the mental-health part of the checklist. That is evident in your almost religious doctrine of non-euclidian geometry as the apparent answer to 'everything'.

and of course you reveal yourself even moreso by the ever-present reference to everyone else as having 'no evidence'. A rational person or a sane person even with miniscule education and low IQ would be able to work out that the evidence for a round earth is so overwhelming that it is a proven fact. A mentally ill person happily denies the existence of the seat they sit on and in so many way, that is YOU to a tee - including the methaphor.

PhD theses quote my work and research (quite a buzz, I admit). I bet no academic quotes your 'work' except as a case history in the journals of abnormal psychology.

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disputeone

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2016, 03:24:21 AM »
My little sister is doing her PhD in Psychology, I'll have to ask her how appropriate it is to diagnose someone over an online forum.

I'm guessing it's not an acceptable practice however.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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fliggs

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2016, 03:30:51 AM »
My little sister is doing her PhD in Psychology, I'll have to ask her how appropriate it is to diagnose someone over an online forum.

I'm guessing it's not an acceptable practice however.

It might be inappropriate to some, but to me I see a group of deeply disturbed individuals who desperately need someone to tell them what is happening IN REALITY. The likelihood that it will achieve something is slim but having several times had the example of diagnosing and assisting a person with a  disintegrating marriage and/or a suicide risk and 'over the internet', I will happily play the low-probability card and 'risk' the chance that someone might actually briefly see that what they are saying is really sick and do something about it.

I am a pragmatic and blunt person. It is my style, but it is how I get results where sometimes others fail. Brutal honesty may be brutal, but it is far better that faux-kindness that leaves the kind of delusions these people suffer from, unchecked.

Good luck on your sisters PhD.

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disputeone

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2016, 03:52:46 AM »
Thank you, she is very bright, much brighter than me.

Are these people a risk to themselves or others?

Do you feel that gaslighting them over an internet forum will help their mental health?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2016, 12:20:30 PM »
No one believes you, fliggs. You're not the first person to create an elaborate character just so they can appeal to their own authority. Next you'll be telling us you believe in voodoo  ;)
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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fliggs

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2016, 06:26:59 PM »
Thank you, she is very bright, much brighter than me.

Are these people a risk to themselves or others?

Do you feel that gaslighting them over an internet forum will help their mental health?

Are paranoid schizophenics a risk to themselves? yes, of course. it colours their thinking to an extent that many are unable to function properly in society including holding down a a job or limited to unskilled menial tasks. And of course schizophenics have a high suicide risk plus they certainly CAN be a potential risk to others.

Will it help them? Most likely not, but seeing as they seem to be largely not under treatment, it cant hurt. It is certainly better than some who entertain their delusions as some form of logical alternative 'science'.

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fliggs

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2016, 06:27:50 PM »
No one believes you, fliggs. You're not the first person to create an elaborate character just so they can appeal to their own authority. Next you'll be telling us you believe in voodoo  ;)

I dont really care what you think. And your own posts cast a bit of a shadow as well.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2016, 07:58:53 PM »
No one believes you, fliggs. You're not the first person to create an elaborate character just so they can appeal to their own authority. Next you'll be telling us you believe in voodoo  ;)

I dont really care what you think. And your own posts cast a bit of a shadow as well.

You are not a mental health professional.
Probably a patient.

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Username

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2016, 04:15:06 AM »
Are these people a risk to themselves or others?

Do you feel that gaslighting them over an internet forum will help their mental health?
This. In addition, what you are doing is disparaging and belittling to those who really do have mental inflictions and do require treatment.
f yu can't argue argue both sides, you understand neith.er

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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2016, 05:36:14 AM »
As a published researcher in the field of abnormal psychology, FEers simply scream out paranoid schizophenia and often with narcissistic personality disorder.
You do know that many of them are just fucking around, don't you?  ::)

As a "published researcher" you should have worked out it's impossible to tell how sincere someone is online.
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SpJunk

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2016, 06:14:06 AM »
The biggest churches with most followers,
like Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, ...
didn't and don't claim the Earth is flat.

Where religion in involved it is small, newer churches that used
the claim that Earth is flat for their own purposes.
Some followers of big churches also insist on Flat Earth,
but they are rather exceptions in small percentage.

In Islam the percentage is bigger as is their influence.
When sheikh Hamad inheritedt that island, and carved canals in sand
to make his name readable from satellites in space, they ordered him
to remove it quickly.
Was it because people there must not doubt their
claim that "satellites, or even Space, don't exist"?
I didn't see the official explanation given for that removal.
"HAMAD" ERASED

Where religion is not involved, I can only guess.

For example:
"Person either really believes, and struggles to make it viable,
or rejects everything mainstream and wants to change it,
or hated science teacher and still wants to prove them wrong,
or doesn't know, but believes, and 'defends oppressed and manipulated minority in fight for truth'..."

Or doesn't believe at all, but makes videos on YouTube about what Flat Earthers want to hear, to use them for personal gain.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

"Your lack of simplicity is main reason why not many people would bother to try to understand you." - S.M.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2016, 08:33:01 AM »
As a published researcher in the field of abnormal psychology, FEers simply scream out paranoid schizophenia and often with narcissistic personality disorder.
You do know that many of them are just fucking around, don't you?  ::)

As a "published researcher" you should have worked out it's impossible to tell how sincere someone is online.

fliggs screams out desperate character troll looking for someone to take the bait.

Seriously fliggs, if you're going to create more than one character on a forum you have to make the personalities different.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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hoppy

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2016, 03:09:34 PM »
I am willing to bet the proportion of Flat Earthers correlates directly to quality of education.
Most flatters here have had round education and once believed it. Then we had more education and came to the flat side.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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SpJunk

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Re: Flat earth & Religion
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2016, 08:39:16 PM »
I am willing to bet the proportion of Flat Earthers correlates directly to quality of education.
Most flatters here have had round education and once believed it. Then we had more education and came to the flat side.

Then that education can better explain midnight sun at south pole,
inability to measure Sun height in Flat model,
completely wrong sky maps useless for navigation, especially on south hemisphere,
necessity to remain in denial about Moon landing, Moon distance and size,
denial about Mars rovers, space probes, planets, stars, nebulas, supernovas, ... *

Even denial of horizon shadows crawling mountain sides at sunrise and sunset,
and attempts to deny or twist cloud illumination from below during (again) sunrise and sunset...

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google for "plural of nebula" and for "plural of supernova". Both, -ae and -as are correct.)

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 08:48:30 PM by SpJunk »
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

"Your lack of simplicity is main reason why not many people would bother to try to understand you." - S.M.