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Shills Lie about the Gas Laws.

Yes they do!
25 (45.5%)
NO NO NO WE DO NOT OH NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
30 (54.5%)

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Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.

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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #270 on: December 06, 2016, 02:28:39 PM »
Please read:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #271 on: December 06, 2016, 02:33:36 PM »
Yay, Papa is out of the video coma and back to his normal program of bullshit.
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rabinoz

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #272 on: December 06, 2016, 02:38:31 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
<< irrelevant video >>

You should ask more questions before designing you piston engined space-craft.

Quote
Is PV work the only kind of work a system can do?

It's the only type of work that a system such as this (piston-cylinder) can achieve. There are many different forms of Work, such as electrical work (dW=Current*Voltage*dt), rotational work (dW=Torque*Angular Acceleration*dt), and many other situations. Basically, anything that has Power (noted as W_dot, which means P=dW/dt) contains the capacity to do work and must be able to do work over time by it's definition.

From: Khan Academy, Work from expansion, under Questions.


Read, learn and inwardly digest ;) piston-cylinder  ;) !
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rabinoz

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #273 on: December 06, 2016, 03:01:15 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 02:28:39 PM

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.


Not quite, Dr Herr Papa Legba, Professor of Piston-engined space-craft!

What you really should have claimed is that "a piston-engined gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum."

And, since I guess that engine would have to drive a propellor (yair I know,  ::) it could flap wings  ::)), it really would be pretty useless in a vacuum.

But a rocket pushing tonnes of gas at extreme velocity out the back is quite another story.

Papa, we're waiting bated breathe for you to get to that section in your thermodynamics course, just so we can learn how rockets really work in a vacuum!

In the meantime you could learn a lot from Robert A. Braeunig, ROCKET PROPULSION.

Now, don't rant and rave an cuss at us , we're only trying to help you learn a bit where your education has been sadly lacking.

Happy  :) studying.  :)
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Rayzor

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #274 on: December 06, 2016, 03:08:37 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on December 06, 2016, 03:01:15 PM
Now, don't rant and rave an cuss at us , we're only trying to help you learn a bit where your education has been sadly lacking.

What he lacks if a functioning set of brain cells, in case you haven't figured him out yet he's just another mindless troll  who's into loopy conspiracy theories.

He can be easily reverse trolled,  as Markjo showed us over the course of several thousand posts,  poor Papa didn't even realise he'd been played.

Still hasn't woken up.    ( see what I did there :) )
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 03:10:47 PM by Rayzor »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #275 on: December 06, 2016, 03:09:54 PM »
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 02:38:31 PM
<Horridly-formatted disinfo snipped>

LOL!!!

So the only 'citation' you can find is from an anonymous poster on the comments section of a website I posted?

Cool story bro...

And you act so triumphant about it too!

It's not even from the pressure-volume work section either:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Still, at least you tried eh, you poor shill bastard?

When you find a gas law that supports your sci-fi bullshit get back to me...

With a REAL citation next time eh?

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!


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Lonegranger

  • 4083
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #276 on: December 06, 2016, 03:11:01 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on August 06, 2016, 04:25:15 PM
A Gas does no Work in a Vacuum:

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/j150043a002
http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_expansion

No Work=no Force=no Motion:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html
https://www.wou.edu/las/physci/GS361/EnergyBasics/EnergyBasics.htm
http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/work_energy_power.htm

Etc, etc, etc; undeniable scientific FACT.

Ergo a GAS-powered rocket cannot possibly create MOTION in a Vacuum.

Off you go idiotic anti-science paid liar scumbags...

Exercise your Democratic Rights to Lie like your life depends on it!

If we strip out all the bullshit this individual spouts and you add it to the sum of his claims of people being shills plus his referring to people who have views That are contrary to his own.....then you are not left with much....just a bit of hot air.
What he claims about chemical powered rockets not being able to produce thrust in a vacuum is  of course nonesense.  Now I could quote various pieces of scientific literature...but that I think would set him off on one of his rants.....so rather than that why don't you just watch a bit of TV and relax.



Now this is for the other people on this site....do you thing the papa person will be able to reply in a way that is coherent or will he just rant and rave.....well let's just see.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #277 on: December 06, 2016, 03:15:47 PM »
Quote from: Geoff/markjo/whoever... on December 06, 2016, 03:11:01 PM
<citation & science-free garbage snipped>

Oh look another sock-puppet!

How original.

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!
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Lonegranger

  • 4083
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #278 on: December 06, 2016, 03:17:28 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 02:38:31 PM
<Horridly-formatted disinfo snipped>

LOL!!!

So the only 'citation' you can find is from an anonymous poster on the comments section of a website I posted?

Cool story bro...

And you act so triumphant about it too!

It's not even from the pressure-volume work section either:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Still, at least you tried eh, you poor shill bastard?

When you find a gas law that supports your sci-fi bullshit get back to me...

With a REAL citation next time eh?

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!

It's all very well quoting extracts from scientific publication on thermodynamics, but the main problem I see from what you then infer is that you have little or no understanding of the basic concepts. If I were you I would go back and re- read your sources.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #279 on: December 06, 2016, 03:20:00 PM »
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 03:17:28 PM
<citation & science-free garbage snipped again>

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!
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PsychedelicPill

  • 198
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #280 on: December 06, 2016, 03:27:44 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 02:28:39 PM
Please read:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

^^ Being deliberately stupid ^^

Already been told that the gas does work against the combustion chamber, not against the vacuum. This is a deficiency in the programming of the shill-bot, can the operator please fix and post a better answer.

Quote
Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

^^ Being deliberately stupid ^^

Already been told that the gas does work against the combustion chamber, not against the vacuum. This is a deficiency in the programming of the shill-bot, can the operator please fix and post a better answer.

Quote
Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

Pretty conclusive: Proppa D-K cannot possibly be a functioning human being.
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Lonegranger

  • 4083
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #281 on: December 06, 2016, 03:29:18 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 03:17:28 PM
<citation & science-free garbage snipped again>

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!

You can quote all you like and use words like, force, pressure etc, but it's obvious to all that your understanding of these concepts is severely lacking. You can tootle pip all you want but there is no getting away from the facts of the matter no much how much you shout and scream. I take it you have watched the extract from the episode of Mythbusters ? It appears they proved unequivably that chemical powered rockets do work in a vacuum.


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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #282 on: December 06, 2016, 03:32:55 PM »
Quote from: PsychedelicPill on December 06, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
no science no citations as usual

Meh...

Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 03:29:18 PM
No science no citations again

Meh...

Why do you lot keep mistaking just saying shit for science?

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!
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PsychedelicPill

  • 198
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #283 on: December 06, 2016, 03:55:02 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: PsychedelicPill on December 06, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
no science no citations as usual

Meh...

Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 03:29:18 PM
No science no citations again

Meh...

Why do you lot keep mistaking just saying shit for science?

Back to this:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

The equation is: Work = external Pressure x change in Volume.

As the external Pressure in a Vacuum is ZERO, then a Gas introduced into a Vacuum will do ZERO Work.

And without WORK there can be neither POWER nor FORCE, & thus no MOTION:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html


Moreover, the experiment to prove this FACT was one of the mathematical & conceptual foundations of Thermodynamics:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

Again, I will quote the relevant section: "Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

To claim that it does is to violate the very foundations of Laws of Thermodynamics: FACT.

And no matter how much you stamp your feet & try to turn the page on these scientific FACTS they simply will not go away...

Sucks to be you; oh yes it does!

Toodle-pip, LOSERS!

^^ The shill-bot has exceeded its design limitation and is stuck in a loop ^^
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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #284 on: December 06, 2016, 04:29:53 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: PsychedelicPill on December 06, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
no science no citations as usual

Meh...

Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 03:29:18 PM
No science no citations again

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

In it you will find the equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas...

Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.


You should have said "In it you will find ONE equation used to determine the amount of Work done by a Gas..."

Heve you not read my posts? Well, we'll try again to get through to the Papa Bot.

So, I will repeat in FULL:
Quote from: rabinoz on December 06, 2016, 02:38:31 PM
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
<< irrelevant video >>
You should ask more questions before designing you piston engined space-craft.
Quote
Is PV work the only kind of work a system can do?

It's the only type of work that a system such as this (piston-cylinder) can achieve. There are many different forms of Work, such as electrical work (dW=Current*Voltage*dt), rotational work (dW=Torque*Angular Acceleration*dt), and many other situations. Basically, anything that has Power (noted as W_dot, which means P=dW/dt) contains the capacity to do work and must be able to do work over time by it's definition.

From: Khan Academy, Work from expansion, under Questions.
[/size]
Read, learn and inwardly digest ;) piston-cylinder  ;) !

And still there's more:
Quote from: rabinoz on December 06, 2016, 03:01:15 PM
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 02:28:39 PM
Pretty conclusive: a gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum.

Not quite, Dr Herr Papa Legba, Professor of Piston-engined space-craft!

What you really should have claimed is that "a piston-engined gas-POWERED rocket cannot possibly do WORK in a vacuum."

And, since I guess that engine would have to drive a propellor (yair I know,  ::) it could flap wings  ::)), it really would be pretty useless in a vacuum.

But a rocket pushing tonnes of gas at extreme velocity out the back is quite another story.

Papa, we're waiting bated breathe for you to get to that section in your thermodynamics course, just so we can learn how rockets really work in a vacuum!

In the meantime you could learn a lot from Robert A. Braeunig, ROCKET PROPULSION.

Now, don't rant and rave an cuss at us , we're only trying to help you learn a bit where your education has been sadly lacking.

Happy  :) studying.  :)

There, I can do copy'n'pasta too.
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FETlolcakes

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #285 on: December 06, 2016, 07:04:10 PM »
Guys, best not to feed the very obviously broken bot. It's only going to spew the same refuted garbage it's been crapping out for many months now. It has been debunked at least 20 times in this thread alone; nevermind the other 90+ page monstrosity where I'm sure the number of debunks reached quadruple digits.

Best to report a fault and hope for a service call. Cross your fingers that whoever gets around to it might actually load up a working knowledge of physics, at least to a 3rd grade level, then we all might expect a wholehearted, unreserved apology from it and an admittance that there isn't some wacky global conspiracy from space agencies to hide the twoof that rockets can't work in a vacuum.

... one can dream, right? :D
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markjo

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #286 on: December 06, 2016, 08:11:52 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Why does W=pv not apply inside the rocket engine?

Cos the P refers to EXTERNAL pressure, dingus.

Quote from: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work
Let's consider gas contained in a piston.
How exactly is rocket exhaust like gas contained in a piston?


Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
gasses in motion have momentum (which is a vector quantity that must be conserved).
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/momentum/Lesson-1/Momentum

And the momentum of that gas will be conserved as it expands freely into a vacuum...
What about the momentum of the gas as it passes through the rocket engine?  Does that momentum get conserved?


Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Because it does no Work as it expands.
Ummm... That isn't what conservation of momentum means.
Quote from: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/momentum/Lesson-2/Momentum-Conservation-Principle
One of the most powerful laws in physics is the law of momentum conservation. The law of momentum conservation can be stated as follows.

    For a collision occurring between object 1 and object 2 in an isolated system, the total momentum of the two objects before the collision is equal to the total momentum of the two objects after the collision. That is, the momentum lost by object 1 is equal to the momentum gained by object 2.


Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Of course this is far more easily understood in terms of COE than COM...

If you say so:
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/rocket/thermo1f.html



Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
So please stop cherry-picking your physics & ignoring the entirety of Thermodynamics.

Thermodynamics absolutely supports rockets working in a vacuum (assuming that you actually understand thermodynamics).
http://www.braeunig.us/space/thermo.htm
https://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/thermo.html

BTW, if you want to chastise me for ignoring "the entirety of thermodynamics", then why are you ignoring the thermo part of thermodynamics?  You do understand that burning propellant releases a great deal of energy, don't you?

Quote from: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work
In chemistry, we will often be interested in changes in energy that occur during a chemical reaction at constant pressure. For example, you may run a reaction in an open beaker on the benchtop. These systems are at constant pressure because the pressure in the system can equilibrate with the atmospheric pressure of the surroundings.

In this situation, the volume of the system can change during the reaction, so ΔV≠0 and work is also non-zero. Heat can also be transferred between the system (our reaction) and the surroundings, so both work and heat must be considered when thinking about the energy change for the reaction. The energy contribution from work becomes more significant when the reaction makes or consumes gases, especially if the number of moles of gas changes substantially between the product and the reactants.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 08:30:22 PM by markjo »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #287 on: December 06, 2016, 10:19:13 PM »
Nice gish-gallop markjo...

For starters W=pv does not just apply to pistons; you would know this if you actually read the link rather than picking random posts from the comments section of a different section as 'evidence':

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

But it seems this is your new strawman; just remember there may be scientifically-literate people reading this who will be appalled by your standards.

As for all your talk of the COM of a gas; gas is not a solid & does not behave like one:

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/character.html

So how can you talk about a gas in terms of 'object 1' & 'object 2'?

You can only do this at a molecular scale - which I already explained btw - but at large scales you must talk in terms of heat, energy, pressure & work, as this is the only practical method of measuring & predicting a gases behaviour.

Hence Thermodynamics & Conservation of Energy.

Speaking of which, NASA copy-pasting the 1st Law next to a picture of a rocket nozzle does NOT constitute a 'scientific citation' that a gas can do work in a vacuum...

If they'd put Santa's sleigh there instead would it make that real too?

You are so dishonest, aren't you?

Here is a REAL citation that a gas does no work in a vacuum:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

When any of you come up with evidence as iron-clad as that get back to me.

Toodle-pip, Loser!



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disputeone

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #288 on: December 06, 2016, 10:23:20 PM »
The gas has mass.

C.o.M.

The exhaust is object b.

Free expansion only applies to a gas freely expanding in a closed system not being shot out of a nozzle with velocity.

Also.

F=M×A dew the math.

Please see markjo's post for citations.

toodle pip, Papa.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #289 on: December 06, 2016, 10:45:24 PM »
Quote from: disputeone on December 06, 2016, 10:23:20 PM
F=M×A dew the math.

LOL!!!

Do the math on every single particle in a gas-cloud?

Nobody does that; they use this instead:

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node11.html

This may help you understand what open, closed & isolated systems are too, as you seem to have missed my repeated explanations:

https://www.bluffton.edu/homepages/facstaff/bergerd/NSC_111/thermo2.html

You are such a retard!

Also you are markjo's little dick-rider...

And you are proving the title of this thread correct every time you post...

Well done, littlebigdick-rider!

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Lonegranger

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #290 on: December 06, 2016, 11:21:00 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: disputeone on December 06, 2016, 10:23:20 PM
F=M×A dew the math.

LOL!!!

Do the math on every single particle in a gas-cloud?

Nobody does that; they use this instead:

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node11.html

This may help you understand what open, closed & isolated systems are too, as you seem to have missed my repeated explanations:

https://www.bluffton.edu/homepages/facstaff/bergerd/NSC_111/thermo2.html

You are such a retard!

Also you are markjo's little dick-rider...

And you are proving the title of this thread correct every time you post...

Well done, littlebigdick-rider!

Your debating style is:
1. Repeating  the same thing over and over again demonstrating you have little understanding of the subject you are pontificating about, in this case thermodynamics.

2. Hurl abuse at those that don't agree with you.

In the post above for example you start with a witty....lol.  Now that's smart and very original.

You then shift up gear by throwing in 'Retard'...which Displays some deep seated anti social issues you appear to have.

You then switch to using a sexual innuendo, 'dick rider' which again may point to you having some deep seated repressed sexual urges which you are unable to fulfill.

And then you finish with a flourish using 'littlebig dickrider' which is an interesting one, that may point to you own uncertainty or even confusion in relation to the adequacy of your own member.

You paint the picture of quite a small inadequate individual who finds it hard to fit in with society in general, while at the same time having some underlying issues with your own sexuality.

Just to finish.....what about the demonstation done by the Mythbusters?  I think that proves your well busted my little limp dicked anti social misfit buddy!   Oops.

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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #291 on: December 06, 2016, 11:27:16 PM »
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 11:21:00 PM
<time-wasting science & citation-free garbage snipped>

Didn't even read it.

That shit's gonna happen to you every single time, Geoff.
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Lonegranger

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #292 on: December 06, 2016, 11:37:03 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 11:21:00 PM
<time-wasting science & citation-free garbage snipped>

Didn't even read it.

That shit's gonna happen to you every single time, Geoff.

Now that's is very revealing....claiming not to have read it! When we all know you must have to have made the above statement.

What that clearly shows is your fear of facing and then confronting reality. You see it but rather that owning up to it you delude yourself by claiming it's not there.

By the way how did you know my name is Geoff?
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #293 on: December 06, 2016, 11:45:29 PM »

Btw it means net momentum when it says momentum of the gas.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #294 on: December 06, 2016, 11:52:46 PM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 11:45:29 PM

Btw it means net momentum when it says momentum of the gas.

LMFAO!!!

PLEASE let there be actual physicists reading this shit...

Please - just ONE!
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disputeone

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #295 on: December 06, 2016, 11:55:27 PM »
Want me to ask Totes?

Edit.

Must be sad when the only people that stand up for you are your alts.
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Lonegranger

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #296 on: December 06, 2016, 11:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 11:27:16 PM
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 11:21:00 PM
<time-wasting science & citation-free garbage snipped>

Didn't even read it.

That shit's gonna happen to you every single time, Geoff.

Just to save you spending your hard earned cash on an analyst....I'll do it here for free.
I think what you display is a fairly classic case of 'denialism'

It's a complex condition where people's beliefs are biased by their goals rather than any empiracle evidence. To prove my case the team from Mythbusters carried out an experiment that clearly demonstrates that a chemical reaction can produce thrust in a vacuum. It's there for all to see......just watch it!
However if your beliefs are at odds with this and are preventing you from achieving your goals then a denial based construct will be produced. Not only that but the deniler  will try at every turn to avoid confronting the truth. They will then engage in behaviour that mocks those that hold the opposing view, for in their mind, if they can ridicule the opposition it will by virtue of their twisted logic, call into question the validity of the truth.

So there you have it bud......oh sorry your not going to read it....but I understand why.
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Lonegranger

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #297 on: December 07, 2016, 12:03:17 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 11:37:03 PM
<time-wasting science & citation-free garbage snipped>

STFU Geoff.

Ah......is that the best you can do? Rather than confronting reality and the truth you shout at me to be quiet..........is it because it's a bit to close to the truth?....while at the same time you keep banging away with your scientific misunderstandings, not trying to convince others, but to try and convince yourself.....the cracks are starting to appear.

And by the way what do you have to say about the Mythbusters video?....or are they paid shilllllls?
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #298 on: December 07, 2016, 12:07:20 AM »
Quote from: Lonegranger on December 06, 2016, 11:58:01 PM
<snip again>

Quote from: Lonegranger on December 07, 2016, 12:03:17 AM
<snip again>

You seem to be mistaking Words for Reality, Geoff.

Until I see a link to a citation for whatever garbage you are spamming this is what you'll get every time.

And please bear in mind that you confirm the correctness of the title of this thread with every post.
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Lonegranger

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #299 on: December 07, 2016, 12:09:31 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 11:52:46 PM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 11:45:29 PM

Btw it means net momentum when it says momentum of the gas.

LMFAO!!!

PLEASE let there be actual physicists reading this shit...

Please - just ONE!


But there are......and he's saying that you have a deep seated misunderstanding of the basic concepts. It's obvious and fairly simple concepts that any high school kid would get. The problem is your blockage is preventing you from understanding. There is no point arguing 'heat engines' with you nor the principles that govern them, pun intended, as you Won't be able to see it.
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