Den Pressure - A Definable Hypothesis & Experiments (Scepti, iWitness)

Aaaah epiphany.
Q4 and 5.
How is the outside air pressure in contact with the isolated air inside the vessel?
The vessel is protecting the inside from outside influence.

Aaaah epiphany.
Q4 and 5.
How is the outside air pressure in contact with the isolated air inside the vessel?
The vessel is protecting the inside from outside influence.

The outside atmosphere isn't in contact with the inside air.
Like you said, it's isolated by the vessel and valve.

So what's your issue?

Denpressure.

Again, that is not an answer.
I want you to provide an explanation, not just an assertion.
Or are you now changing your model yet again so now denpressure, instead of being magic with the atmosphere, is now just things falling to the ground?

If you are going to make it a direct downwards push on all objects, then state that.
If instead you are still going to use the air, explain how air makes things go down.

So again: Why do things fall?

Same question once again, to you.

Again, stop with the distractions. If you want to learn about reality, go start a new thread. This thread is to discuss your model.

Nothing can fall unless they're taken from their foundation.

So if I have a nice block of lead sitting on a table, and then I take away the table, will it fall? In this case I took the foundation away from the object, not the object from the foundation.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 01:16:12 PM

Aaaah epiphany.
Q4 and 5.
How is the outside air pressure in contact with the isolated air inside the vessel?
The vessel is protecting the inside from outside influence.

The outside atmosphere isn't in contact with the inside air.
Like you said, it's isolated by the vessel and valve.

So what's your issue?

My issue is you answered yes when i asked you.
Eat paintchips much?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 04, 2019, 05:24:20 AM

Nothing can fall unless they're taken from their foundation.

So if I have a nice block of lead sitting on a table, and then I take away the table, will it fall? In this case I took the foundation away from the object, not the object from the foundation.

Yes it will fall, because that lead is already taking up its own dense mass of atmosphere and that atmosphere is compressing back against it. Only the table is stopping it overcoming the dense atmosphere under the table.

If you want an analogy just think of a spring.

Imagine a room covered in a membrane at table height, so if you placed your table under that membrane it would rest flat on that table.
The membrane is your atmosphere.
Ok you now place your lead block on that table and now you can see the membrane has engulfed the lead block, except you know that it's the lead block that's displaced the membrane and compressed it. Stretched it and taken its own dense mass in that shape, with the table as the foundation that clamps that lead block.


Now take away that table and the membrane will decompress as the compression is allowed to push it down against a less dense resistance until it reaches the floor which will be its next membrane clamp at floor level.

Just picture a stacking of membranes as your atmospheric stack.

Understand its an analogy but I feel you need to be helped seeing as you are still at square one after all this time. Likely deliberate but what the hell. I can cope with that.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 04, 2019, 01:28:11 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 01:16:12 PM

Aaaah epiphany.
Q4 and 5.
How is the outside air pressure in contact with the isolated air inside the vessel?
The vessel is protecting the inside from outside influence.

The outside atmosphere isn't in contact with the inside air.
Like you said, it's isolated by the vessel and valve.

So what's your issue?

My issue is you answered yes when i asked you.
Eat paintchips much?

So I answered yes. What's the issue?

Do you have something to come back with or are you struggling to understand what you're trying to convey?

Yes it will fall, because that lead is already taking up its own dense mass of atmosphere and that atmosphere is compressing back against it.

So nothing to do with a foundation.
And we have already been over this, the atmosphere pressing against it would try to crush it or hold it to whatever it is against. That doesn't provide a reason for it to fall.

If you want an analogy just think of a spring.

Before we get to analogies, we first need to establish why it would fall in the first place.

The membrane is your atmosphere.

No it isn't.
A membrane acts nothing like the atmosphere.
But lets go with that.
I place the lead below the table, with the atmosphere pushing against the bottom of the table as well. now if I remove the table, the lead block should fly up, and before doing that it should stay stuck to the table, but it doesn't.
Alternatively, I can place the block against a wall. If I now remove the wall, or pull the lead block away from the wall, the membrane should force it sideways, but it doesn't.

So again, that clearly doesn't explain it.

but I feel you need to be helped seeing as you are still at square one after all this time.

Quit with the pathetic insults. I'm not the one in need of help here.
I am still at square one, because your model is nonsense and you are completely incapable of explaining how/why things fall.
If you could explain it, we wouldn't be at square one.

So again, why do things fall.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 01:39:25 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 04, 2019, 01:28:11 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 01:16:12 PM

Aaaah epiphany.
Q4 and 5.
How is the outside air pressure in contact with the isolated air inside the vessel?
The vessel is protecting the inside from outside influence.

The outside atmosphere isn't in contact with the inside air.
Like you said, it's isolated by the vessel and valve.

So what's your issue?

My issue is you answered yes when i asked you.
Eat paintchips much?

So I answered yes. What's the issue?

Do you have something to come back with or are you struggling to understand what you're trying to convey?

Kabool:  atmosphere causes weight?
Scepti:   yes
Kabool:  do vessels isolate outside atmosphere from inside air in a pressure vessel?
Scepti: yes
Kabool:  is a lead block inside the pressure vessel still pressed by the outside atmosphere?
Scepti:  yes
Kabool:  then how is the outside atmoshphere in contact with the inside?
Scepti:  its not.
Kabool:   ....dafuq?

Sceptitank is not known for intelligence. Plus when you ad hoc everything you are bound to make contradictory claims.

Kabool:  is a lead block inside the pressure vessel still pressed by the outside atmosphere?
Scepti:  yes

I think he is indicating the atmosphere inside is pushing it down, not the atmosphere outside.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 03:44:44 PM

Kabool:  is a lead block inside the pressure vessel still pressed by the outside atmosphere?
Scepti:  yes

I think he is indicating the atmosphere inside is pushing it down, not the atmosphere outside.

No
I specifically said outside.
He needs to asnwer.

I specifically said outside.
He needs to asnwer.

Not for that question:

But the atmosphere is still in contact if a lead block were inside the vessel, still pushing it down to the foundation

He will count the air inside the vessel as the atmosphere and claim it will still push the object down.

Sceptitank is not known for intelligence. Plus when you ad hoc everything you are bound to make contradictory claims.

I disagree!
Sceptitank probably has a very high intelligence on the IQ scale. Look at the way he invents answers for every situation.
What he, Heiwa and many others have is an over-inflated ego coupled with an abysmal lack of knowledge.
In Sceppy's case, at least, this abysmal lack of knowledge seems to come from his view that all outside knowledge is akin to indoctrination.

This is just an extreme view of a fundamental FE tenet that "all contrary evidence that is not personally verifiable is fabricated".
As a result (in their opinion) neither Sceppy nor FE theory can ever be proven wrong.

But the general consensus would be that no one person can ever accumulate enough evidence to determine the shape of the earth and the way it moves.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 05:07:43 PM

I specifically said outside.
He needs to asnwer.

Not for that question:

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 04:18:36 AM

But the atmosphere is still in contact if a lead block were inside the vessel, still pushing it down to the foundation

He will count the air inside the vessel as the atmosphere and claim it will still push the object down.

no
i specifically said outside
not inside

no
i specifically said outside
not inside

Not for that question:

But the atmosphere is still in contact if a lead block were inside the vessel, still pushing it down to the foundation
- yes no?

No where in that do you mention outside.

He will count the air inside the vessel as the atmosphere and claim it will still push the object down.

Aaah ok
I concede.
Whne i said atmosphere I meant outside atmophere.

Aaah ok
I concede.
Whne i said atmosphere I meant outside atmophere.

So we can try again.

Pressure vessel has Outside air is separated from inside air.
Outside air and inside air can be set at different pressures.
Outside Air pressure is what causes weight.
Will a lead block inside the vessel weigh the same as when outside?
Yes/ no?

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 04, 2019, 08:22:35 PM

Aaah ok
I concede.
Whne i said atmosphere I meant outside atmophere.

So we can try again.

Pressure vessel has Outside air is separated from inside air.
Outside air and inside air can be set at different pressures.
Outside Air pressure is what causes weight.
Will a lead block inside the vessel weigh the same as when outside?
Yes/ no?

How long is a piece of string?

We are looking at strange ways and means with this carry on.
What you have to understand is the actual lead block itself in already taking up natural atmospheric pressure regardless.
It's already displacing it's own dense mass of atmosphere whether outside or inside a vessel.

So basically placing it inside the vessel raises the pressure of the vessel by the dense mass of the lead block displacing that atmosphere inside.
If that vessel is open then the dense mass of lead can push that atmosphere and compress it towards the breach in the vessel, but remember the word, COMPRESS.

Evacuation via pump allows decompression but it becomes much more difficult to do against a mass block already compressing.


I'll make this easier.
Imagine that lead block inside the vessel under water. It manages to displace it's own dense mass of water from the vessel but that water is added pressure back into the breach of that vessel.

pUmping against that added pressure does the job of holding back that extra pressure but still leaves the water pressure still in that vessel from which the lead block is in and clamped under.

Similar situation. Not as easy as simply just supposedly sucking out some air or water. It's an impossibility to do as I've explained.
It's pushing the mass of air/water back to allow decompression under normal circumstances but in the case of a dense mass added in, it changes to decompressing the dense mass compression before anything else. and that means it's much more difficult to allow evacuation against atmosphere under that situation.

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

How long is a peice of string?
What?

Lets try this.
Consider the atmosphereic "crush/ push" is from a giant spring.
The ice dome is connected to a giant spring.
That spring reaches from the dome up above alllllll the way down to the top of a pressure vessel.
And stops.
Then inside the pressure vessle there is a lead block, totaly separated from the outside.
How then doss the weight of outside push thorugh the container?

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

When you have a cup and you hold it up to face and start sucking in air.
Instead of your soft face, you have a rigid impermeable surface.
Add cups to your list of fake news?

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

Just because you don't like the words doesn't mean they don't exist.
Vacuum pumps are real, and make real vacuums. Just not perfect vacuums.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

There are many types. The simplest is a positive displacement pump. It has 2 check valves and a piston or membrane capped chamber. One check valve leads in from the container, and the other leads out to the ambient air. The chamber expands and contracts. When the chamber contracts the pressure inside increases as the molecules are forced closer together (and have energy imparted from the moving chamber wall). This creates a pressure gradient between the chamber and outside, causing the air to be forced out through the check valve allowing it.
Then the chamber expands, lowering the pressure inside. This creates a pressure gradient between the container and the chamber, allowing the air to be forced into the chamber from the container.
The check valves require pressure to open and thus only allow air to flow one way. An inverted pressure gradient will seal the check valve preventing their flow.

Then there are also options than pistons or membranes (aka diaphragm). For example, a rotary vane pump. This has a cylindrical chamber. Inside this, there is a rotating cylinder which is mounted off centre, typically towards the top due to how most pumps are arranged. This internal cylinder just touches the top of the chamber, creating a seal there. Inside this cylinder there are vanes as well which can move in and out to keep contact with the chamber wall. A cycle for this pump starts out at the top, with the vane sweeping towards the inlet. Initially the volume is very small, but as it rotates the volume increases creating a pressure gradient just like before, sucking air in. It then reaches a point where the next vane isolates it from the inlet and the air is trapped in this pocket. However eventually the first vane rotates past the outlet and the air can then leave to the outside, with the vane sweeping along reducing the volume.
This has the benefit of not needing check valves, allowing a much lower pressure (i.e. higher vacuum) to be reached.

There are also plenty of other similar types which work with different mechanisms of creating the pockets of air and moving them.
But then we have other types.
For example, turbomolecular pumps.
These work by literally hitting the air backwards.
They have multiple blade assemblies, some stationary some rotating (or rotating and counter-rotating).
Once a molecule of air reaches the first blade, it is hit back by it, which in turn smacks it into the next blade and so on, continually pushing it back further. This works for very high vacuums and often has another pump on the outlet.

So vacuum pumps are quite real.

Now as you still haven't answered:
WHY DO THINGS FALL?
Why is such a simple question such a challenge for you?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

When you have a cup and you hold it up to face and start sucking in air.
Instead of your soft face, you have a rigid impermeable surface.
Add cups to your list of fake news?

Do you even know what you're saying?
Sucking air in?
Explain.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

Just because you don't like the words doesn't mean they don't exist.
Vacuum pumps are real, and make real vacuums. Just not perfect vacuums.

Not a perfect vacuum is not a vacuum.
Lower pressure is the best that can be hoped for.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

There are many types. The simplest is a positive displacement pump. It has 2 check valves and a piston or membrane capped chamber. One check valve leads in from the container, and the other leads out to the ambient air. The chamber expands and contracts. When the chamber contracts the pressure inside increases as the molecules are forced closer together (and have energy imparted from the moving chamber wall). This creates a pressure gradient between the chamber and outside, causing the air to be forced out through the check valve allowing it.
Then the chamber expands, lowering the pressure inside. This creates a pressure gradient between the container and the chamber, allowing the air to be forced into the chamber from the container.
The check valves require pressure to open and thus only allow air to flow one way. An inverted pressure gradient will seal the check valve preventing their flow.

Then there are also options than pistons or membranes (aka diaphragm). For example, a rotary vane pump. This has a cylindrical chamber. Inside this, there is a rotating cylinder which is mounted off centre, typically towards the top due to how most pumps are arranged. This internal cylinder just touches the top of the chamber, creating a seal there. Inside this cylinder there are vanes as well which can move in and out to keep contact with the chamber wall. A cycle for this pump starts out at the top, with the vane sweeping towards the inlet. Initially the volume is very small, but as it rotates the volume increases creating a pressure gradient just like before, sucking air in. It then reaches a point where the next vane isolates it from the inlet and the air is trapped in this pocket. However eventually the first vane rotates past the outlet and the air can then leave to the outside, with the vane sweeping along reducing the volume.
This has the benefit of not needing check valves, allowing a much lower pressure (i.e. higher vacuum) to be reached.

There are also plenty of other similar types which work with different mechanisms of creating the pockets of air and moving them.
But then we have other types.
For example, turbomolecular pumps.
These work by literally hitting the air backwards.
They have multiple blade assemblies, some stationary some rotating (or rotating and counter-rotating).
Once a molecule of air reaches the first blade, it is hit back by it, which in turn smacks it into the next blade and so on, continually pushing it back further. This works for very high vacuums and often has another pump on the outlet.

So vacuum pumps are quite real.

Now as you still haven't answered:
WHY DO THINGS FALL?
Why is such a simple question such a challenge for you?

All pumps no matter what, either compress external atmosphere into a container or they compress external atmosphere to allow expansion of internal air from the chamber.
The pump that allows evacuation does absolutely nothing to the vessel at any time.

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

Explain why things fall DOWN.  Don't just say it does, explain why?

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

Explain why things fall DOWN.  Don't just say it does, explain why?

I did. You have to understand why they go up to understand why they fall down.
After all they cannot fall without being raised/moved.

things fall down due to external atmospheric push or crush or something...

but for some reason, when isolated inside a pressure vessel, and clearly shown to be of different pressure, the outside push is still relevant.
why is that?

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 07, 2019, 01:33:43 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

When you have a cup and you hold it up to face and start sucking in air.
Instead of your soft face, you have a rigid impermeable surface.
Add cups to your list of fake news?

Do you even know what you're saying?
Sucking air in?
Explain.

is this video fake news?

haha

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:53:24 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 07, 2019, 01:33:43 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 07, 2019, 01:23:06 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 07, 2019, 01:21:00 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that vacuum pumps work.

No such thing as a vacuum pump.

If you believe there is then you need to describe exactly what it does. Don't just say it does this and that if you can't explain why.

When you have a cup and you hold it up to face and start sucking in air.
Instead of your soft face, you have a rigid impermeable surface.
Add cups to your list of fake news?

Do you even know what you're saying?
Sucking air in?
Explain.

is this video fake news?

haha

although of asian decent, holistic medicine cracks me up and IS PART of my fake news list.

but the pump and cups are real.