Den Pressure - A Definable Hypothesis & Experiments (Scepti, iWitness)

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on December 14, 2018, 12:46:20 PM

And what makes up this external atmosphere that causes the molecules to evacuate themselves?

The pump causes the molecules to evacuate themselves, but pushing back the external atmosphere to allow it.

How does the pump push back the external atmosphere?  What is it doing to push back on the external atmosphere?  The pump doesn't turn on and magically atmosphere on the outside is getting pushed back. The pump has to be moving something through the pump to push against the outside atmosphere.  As you said it isn't the molecules from inside, so what is the pump doing to push on the external atmosphere.

But as you seem so insistent on not arguing about gravity and wanting people to start from the basics, how about we try that again?
Why do things have weight?
Start from the basics and go as slow as you want.
Before you start saying the question is nonsense, I know that objects have weight as I can lift them up and feel the amount of effort it requires. Some things have so much weight that I can't lift them alone.
It can also be quantified with scales.
So why do things have weight?

All objects that can be physically/mechanically picked up from the ground have a dense mass that displaces the atmosphere they are in.
Man made scales laid on a ground and set at zero against the atmosphere it displaces is actually already calibrated for that environment.
Any object displacing that atmosphere by it's own dense mass can be recorded on those scales by using those scales as a resistance plate to the push into the atmosphere of the object itself sitting on that plate.
The scale measures that resistance.

Pretty simple really. The scales simply give a man made measurement of the ground pressure a moveable object makes by it's own atmospheric displacement.
No gravity required.

Well lets not complicate things too much.
The OPINION of why things weigh is up for debate apparently and will yield only redherring discussion.

What i want is to point out he is literally disputing physical verifiable experiment of pressure vessels.
Hes dodged around it and hinted against it but hasnt flat out admitted it.

Come scepti!

I have no need to dispute pressure vessels. It's the context in which it's used.
I was asked how they were filled. I explained.

Well, here is one more demonstration.

All of those things prove denpressure, not gravity.

A better question would be what experiments have you done to support denpressure?

Vacuum tests and atmospheric tests. Simple stuff like I've explained many times before.

Ok, back to the Cavendish experiment.
What experiment did you do with this Cavendish carry on to prove to yourself that gravity is real.
Just a bit of honesty and a simple explanation from you.

Scepti is ignoring me I guess

I only ignore those who are hell bent on deliberately skewing stuff.
If that's not you then what's your question?

How does the pump push back the external atmosphere?  What is it doing to push back on the external atmosphere?  The pump doesn't turn on and magically atmosphere on the outside is getting pushed back. The pump has to be moving something through the pump to push against the outside atmosphere.  As you said it isn't the molecules from inside, so what is the pump doing to push on the external atmosphere.

A pump is a compressor. It (in the case of allowed evacuation) stops the external atmosphere from compressing against the molecules of a container to keep them equalised.
It pushes back against that atmosphere to allow the natural expansion of molecules from the chamber.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on December 14, 2018, 11:30:04 PM

How does the pump push back the external atmosphere?  What is it doing to push back on the external atmosphere?  The pump doesn't turn on and magically atmosphere on the outside is getting pushed back. The pump has to be moving something through the pump to push against the outside atmosphere.  As you said it isn't the molecules from inside, so what is the pump doing to push on the external atmosphere.

A pump is a compressor. It (in the case of allowed evacuation) stops the external atmosphere from compressing against the molecules of a container to keep them equalised.
It pushes back against that atmosphere to allow the natural expansion of molecules from the chamber.

That's not what I asked.

You have said:

1. The pump does not move the molecules.

2. The pump pushes against the external atmosphere causing compression of the external atmosphere.

3. The compression of the external atmosphere allows the molecules to evacuate the chamber on their own.


What is the pump pushing against the external atmosphere to cause it to compress?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2018, 11:51:19 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on December 14, 2018, 11:30:04 PM

How does the pump push back the external atmosphere?  What is it doing to push back on the external atmosphere?  The pump doesn't turn on and magically atmosphere on the outside is getting pushed back. The pump has to be moving something through the pump to push against the outside atmosphere.  As you said it isn't the molecules from inside, so what is the pump doing to push on the external atmosphere.

A pump is a compressor. It (in the case of allowed evacuation) stops the external atmosphere from compressing against the molecules of a container to keep them equalised.
It pushes back against that atmosphere to allow the natural expansion of molecules from the chamber.

That's not what I asked.

You have said:

1. The pump does not move the molecules.

2. The pump pushes against the external atmosphere causing compression of the external atmosphere.

3. The compression of the external atmosphere allows the molecules to evacuate the chamber on their own.


What is the pump pushing against the external atmosphere to cause it to compress?

You are answering it.

Let me make this easier.

Imagine you have a bicycle pump and a valve attached to a container.
You want to evacuate air from the container.

By your own hand you raise the plunger out of the pump chamber.
This appears to you that you are sucking out the molecules in that valved container...right?
Well it would be wrong.

What's happening is happening inside of the pump chamber with it's rubber plunger.
That rubber plunger on the shaft inside of that pump chamber, in conjunction with your hand grip energy to raise it is compressing the atmosphere above that plunger and leaving behind a lower pressure that the container molecules... which are compressed, to naturally expand into that lower pressure space.


Leave loose of that plunger and the handle gets compressed back against that evacuated container air to equalise.

Can you see what I'm saying?

Let me make this easier.

Imagine you have a bicycle pump and a valve attached to a container.
You want to evacuate air from the container.

By your own hand you raise the plunger out of the pump chamber.
This appears to you that you are sucking out the molecules in that valved container...right?
Well it would be wrong.

What's happening is happening inside of the pump chamber with it's rubber plunger.
That rubber plunger on the shaft inside of that pump chamber, in conjunction with your hand grip energy to raise it is compressing the atmosphere above that plunger and leaving behind a lower pressure that the container molecules... which are compressed, to naturally expand into that lower pressure space.


Leave loose of that plunger and the handle gets compressed back against that evacuated container air to equalise.

Can you see what I'm saying?

Like this?

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on December 14, 2018, 11:58:09 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2018, 11:51:19 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on December 14, 2018, 11:30:04 PM

How does the pump push back the external atmosphere?  What is it doing to push back on the external atmosphere?  The pump doesn't turn on and magically atmosphere on the outside is getting pushed back. The pump has to be moving something through the pump to push against the outside atmosphere.  As you said it isn't the molecules from inside, so what is the pump doing to push on the external atmosphere.

A pump is a compressor. It (in the case of allowed evacuation) stops the external atmosphere from compressing against the molecules of a container to keep them equalised.
It pushes back against that atmosphere to allow the natural expansion of molecules from the chamber.

That's not what I asked.

You have said:

1. The pump does not move the molecules.

2. The pump pushes against the external atmosphere causing compression of the external atmosphere.

3. The compression of the external atmosphere allows the molecules to evacuate the chamber on their own.


What is the pump pushing against the external atmosphere to cause it to compress?

You are answering it.

No.

The pump does not act on the external atmosphere.  The pump moves material from Side A to Side B through a Chamber that works as a one-way valve.  For Side B to compress, something from Side A has to enter the chamber and then be pushed out to Side B against the external atmosphere.  As you have said that Side A does not move until Side B compresses, what is compressing Side B.  Side B can't enter the Chamber.  It's a one way valve.  So what is compressing Side B. 

Quote from: defender_of_truth on December 14, 2018, 09:38:12 PM

Scepti is ignoring me I guess

I only ignore those who are hell bent on deliberately skewing stuff.
If that's not you then what's your question?

My first question is pretty short and simple, and I basically want to know why wouldn’t you go ahead and try a cavendish like experiment to see what happens.

My second question is: do you deny that the masses will attract in the cavendish experiment? If you deny that, back to question one; why not try it? If you don’t deny that the masses attract, it’s a totally different conversation.

1.  He doesnt understand it.
2.  His inference of how the universe works is already predetermined.   Hes already formulated his answer and all results are skewed to match.  The reason the balls move towards each other cna not be gravity because he has already decided gravity doesnt exist.

So how does scepti define displacement?
He keeps using that word and clearly it dossnt mean whatever one else thinks it means.
Good job buddy.

Quote from: JackBlack on December 14, 2018, 02:44:32 PM

But as you seem so insistent on not arguing about gravity and wanting people to start from the basics, how about we try that again?
Why do things have weight?
Start from the basics and go as slow as you want.
Before you start saying the question is nonsense, I know that objects have weight as I can lift them up and feel the amount of effort it requires. Some things have so much weight that I can't lift them alone.
It can also be quantified with scales.
So why do things have weight?

All objects that can be physically/mechanically picked up from the ground have a dense mass that displaces the atmosphere they are in.
Man made scales laid on a ground and set at zero against the atmosphere it displaces is actually already calibrated for that environment.
Any object displacing that atmosphere by it's own dense mass can be recorded on those scales by using those scales as a resistance plate to the push into the atmosphere of the object itself sitting on that plate.
The scale measures that resistance.

Pretty simple really. The scales simply give a man made measurement of the ground pressure a moveable object makes by it's own atmospheric displacement.
No gravity required.

Yes guys
It so simple
Simple...
Maybe simple was redefined by scepi as well.

Quote from: Themightykabool on December 14, 2018, 03:54:04 PM

Well lets not complicate things too much.
The OPINION of why things weigh is up for debate apparently and will yield only redherring discussion.

What i want is to point out he is literally disputing physical verifiable experiment of pressure vessels.
Hes dodged around it and hinted against it but hasnt flat out admitted it.

Come scepti!

I have no need to dispute pressure vessels. It's the context in which it's used.
I was asked how they were filled. I explained.

You did dispute a pressure vessel.
I showed you a vid of a 37m tall one.
You said it was impossible.

Ok forget air.
You seem to be unable to comprehend something you cant see.
Water.
Liquids can be considered incompressible.
But we can still pressurize.
So.
When a liquid is pumped from one vessel to another, are the mocules expandning and stacking but never leaving the vessel??

All objects that can be physically/mechanically picked up from the ground have a dense mass that displaces the atmosphere they are in.
Man made scales laid on a ground and set at zero against the atmosphere it displaces is actually already calibrated for that environment.
Any object displacing that atmosphere by it's own dense mass can be recorded on those scales by using those scales as a resistance plate to the push into the atmosphere of the object itself sitting on that plate.
The scale measures that resistance.

Pretty simple really. The scales simply give a man made measurement of the ground pressure a moveable object makes by it's own atmospheric displacement.
No gravity required.

No, not pretty simple. No where in there is there any explanation for why objects have weight.
So what if objects displace the atmosphere. Why does that give them weight?
Objects can be suspended from scales, and still have weight, pulling it down, not pushing the scale up as would be expected if it was some resistance to the push; unless the object only pushes up into the atmosphere, even though the atmosphere is all around, which just raises the question of why it only pushes up. So it doesn't seem to be recording a resistance to the push.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 14, 2018, 11:35:18 PM

All objects that can be physically/mechanically picked up from the ground have a dense mass that displaces the atmosphere they are in.
Man made scales laid on a ground and set at zero against the atmosphere it displaces is actually already calibrated for that environment.
Any object displacing that atmosphere by it's own dense mass can be recorded on those scales by using those scales as a resistance plate to the push into the atmosphere of the object itself sitting on that plate.
The scale measures that resistance.

Pretty simple really. The scales simply give a man made measurement of the ground pressure a moveable object makes by it's own atmospheric displacement.
No gravity required.

No, not pretty simple. No where in there is there any explanation for why objects have weight.
So what if objects displace the atmosphere. Why does that give them weight?
Objects can be suspended from scales, and still have weight, pulling it down, not pushing the scale up as would be expected if it was some resistance to the push; unless the object only pushes up into the atmosphere, even though the atmosphere is all around, which just raises the question of why it only pushes up. So it doesn't seem to be recording a resistance to the push.

Well he theorises and mind experiments that the atmosphere (irony of him using that word in its proper definition) pushes things down giving them weight.
The reason can be disputed because he choses to believe otherwise.
But.
Physical verifiable actions he refutes!

A thing falls.
It was measured at 9.81.
Come on scepti!
How is that inpossible when you are shown it???

What happened to jane?
How come you two dont stick up for each other at the same time?
Sceptis getting gangbanged here.
Previously jane was left to fend for herself.

Let me make this easier.

Imagine you have a bicycle pump and a valve attached to a container.
You want to evacuate air from the container.

By your own hand you raise the plunger out of the pump chamber.
This appears to you that you are sucking out the molecules in that valved container...right?
Well it would be wrong.

What's happening is happening inside of the pump chamber with it's rubber plunger.
That rubber plunger on the shaft inside of that pump chamber, in conjunction with your hand grip energy to raise it is compressing the atmosphere above that plunger and leaving behind a lower pressure that the container molecules... which are compressed, to naturally expand into that lower pressure space.


Leave loose of that plunger and the handle gets compressed back against that evacuated container air to equalise.

Can you see what I'm saying?

Parts of Bicycle pump: hand grip attached to steel rod Metal desk rubber gasket, placed into a steel tube at top a steel disk hole in Center of it, as a guide for the steel rod and a breeder hole, at the bottom there is a small whole a rubber hose is attached with a one-way valve, air can only pass out.
We will start with the rod just just allCut thisall the way in. Disc gasket at the very bottom, Is now drawn upward, creating a vacuum at the bottom, but the gasket allows air to pass by it, filling the vacuum.
At top, we make a downward stroke, the Gasket expands now, not allowing air to pass by it. Creating pressure and the bottom of the tube, that pushes past the one-way valve on rubber hose, filling the tire.
That is my understanding, how a bicycle pump works.
Is this incorrect?
If so what is wrong with it?

now for a vacuum pump:  you have a container (chamber) in which you want to create a vacuum. This chamber has a one-way valve attached to it, a second valve that is closed, when Open Will allow air back in. To the one way valve, you attach a pump that draws air out of the chamber. The pump is like a single cylinder engine. With a chamber, cylinder head, a crankshaft, two Vals,(a in take, and a out take). As the cylinder head moves up-and-down in this chamber, it creates a vacuum in the upstroke, pulling air, from the vacuum chamber, the Vals not allowing air to move back in, the Downward stroke, pushes air into the room.

This has nothing to do with gravity, I'm afraid it would work in both worlds. Proving disproving nothing, other than a vacuum can exist.

Right
The vessel had to do with the ability to evacuate air.
Sceptis misconceptions of air and pressure are what skews his concept of weight.
Go back in the threads and see his disbeleif that air can be removed and that a feather can fall the same rate as a bowling ball.

Right
The vessel had to do with the ability to evacuate air.
Sceptis misconceptions of air and pressure are what skews his concept of weight.
Go back in the threads and see his disbeleif that air can be removed and that a feather can fall the same rate as a bowling ball.

Sceppy's an extreme example of one person who thinks they are intelligent enough to develop a "Theory of Everything" without outside assistance.

Wise and JRowe (real or not) are two other such examples. Now, I'll grant that Sceppy, JRowe and Wise are highly intelligent in the sense of having a very high IQ but I would claim that they are deluded by their own opinion of their wisdom.
One can be highly intelligent but still lack wisdom.

But, like it or not, the earth is far too large and the "way things work" is far too complex for any one person to develop this "Theory of Everything".

Even Isaac Newton, a far from humble man,
Yet Flat-Earthers try to learn all about the shape of the earth and the "way things work" from personal observations alone.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that personal observations are important when it comes to convincing oneself that "what we are told" is correct.

The way Flat-Earthers try to determine their "TRUTH" reminds me of the old tale of "Six blind men and the Elephant"
to be found in A 1991 Pop-Up book by Troll Communications. On Art and Aesthetics Exploring, The Blind Men and the Elephant.
Or summarised in Why can't flat earthers agree with each other? « Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 09:54:20 AM »

WEll im just trying hammer home this vessel thing.
Its not nasa in a studio.
Its not how does ia vs gravity work.
Its not does atmosphere push down on things.

Its just a very verifiable fact that you can remove the air, drop a thing, and measure it to be 9.81.
Thats it.
He denies this very readily available fact.
Well.   He almost denies it.

come on scepti!
Deny it!

Well im just trying hammer home this vessel thing.

You've been trying to reason with a person who does not believe that empty space, a vacuum, is even imaginable.
Sceppy's individual atoms and molecules expand like soap bubbles to fill all available space, be it the whole dome or a "so-called vacuum chamber".

So one atom and molecule can still cause "friction" on a dropped object. Hence one can never even measure g - according to Sceppy.

A big problem is your assumption that Sceppy understands "science English" but he has a different language.
He uses the same words but with totally different meanings so you must learn this, as yet, untranslated language, "Sceppenese".

But don't be bothered by your lack of progress. Many heads have been broken by being bashed on a brick wall in frustration.
Only Jane survives, a testimony either to her hard head or lack of understanding of science, take your pick.

I'll say this to Sceppy's credit.
Others will claim that "atmosphere push" or "density" explain gravity then refuse to seriously the matter further.
Sceppy, on the other hand, does put in a great deal of effort into making up a complete "theory".

Quote from: rabinoz on December 14, 2018, 05:31:32 PM

Well, here is one more demonstration.

All of those things prove denpressure, not gravity.

Nope, the experiment in that video proves gravity.  How does your denpressure explain it?

Quote from: Themightykabool on December 15, 2018, 07:08:57 PM

Well im just trying hammer home this vessel thing.

You've been trying to reason with a person who does not believe that empty space, a vacuum, is even imaginable.
Sceppy's individual atoms and molecules expand like soap bubbles to fill all available space, be it the whole dome or a "so-called vacuum chamber".

So one atom and molecule can still cause "friction" on a dropped object. Hence one can never even measure g - according to Sceppy.

A big problem is your assumption that Sceppy understands "science English" but he has a different language.
He uses the same words but with totally different meanings so you must learn this, as yet, untranslated language, "Sceppenese".

But don't be bothered by your lack of progress. Many heads have been broken by being bashed on a brick wall in frustration.
Only Jane survives, a testimony either to her hard head or lack of understanding of science, take your pick.

I'll say this to Sceppy's credit.
Others will claim that "atmosphere push" or "density" explain gravity then refuse to seriously the matter further.
Sceppy, on the other hand, does put in a great deal of effort into making up a complete "theory".

Aaah but
The video clearly shows the feather first fluttering down due to wind resistance.
Then in the 2nd when air is "unpressurized/ evacuated/ unstacked" the feather doesnt flutter at all.
His claim of resistance is clearly shown to be neglible.

Come on scepti!
Why doesnt the feather flutter?

Scepti can't explain how a fan or pump works where it doesn't contradict his expansion and contraction model.

Scepti can't explain how a fan or pump works where it doesn't contradict his expansion and contraction model.

Aah but we need to attempt to keep the dialog within his universe.

Sooooo scepti.
Wheres the resistance if the feather doesnt flutter???
Does a stacked molecule expand to fill the sapce?
If so the distance between the atoms of the molecules grows?
If theres nothing physically there, wheres the resistance?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 15, 2018, 12:13:53 AM

Let me make this easier.

Imagine you have a bicycle pump and a valve attached to a container.
You want to evacuate air from the container.

By your own hand you raise the plunger out of the pump chamber.
This appears to you that you are sucking out the molecules in that valved container...right?
Well it would be wrong.

What's happening is happening inside of the pump chamber with it's rubber plunger.
That rubber plunger on the shaft inside of that pump chamber, in conjunction with your hand grip energy to raise it is compressing the atmosphere above that plunger and leaving behind a lower pressure that the container molecules... which are compressed, to naturally expand into that lower pressure space.


Leave loose of that plunger and the handle gets compressed back against that evacuated container air to equalise.

Can you see what I'm saying?

Like this?

Do you understand what's happening from my point of view?
If you grasp it then explain it.