iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 10:18:51 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 08:42:04 PM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 05:23:09 PM

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   

Agreed!

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 11, 2016, 03:00:42 PM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 02:57:49 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 10, 2016, 08:37:21 AM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 10, 2016, 08:17:29 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 10, 2016, 07:26:07 AM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 10, 2016, 06:24:56 AM

Here's a picture from an electron tunnelling microscope of the boundary layer of anodised aluminium, nope, still no atmosphere here down to the atomic particle level.

Looks extremely porous to me.

B-But scepti! These images were taken with an electron microscope! Surely it must be faked, because people can't see atoms, r-right??

Are you trying to tell me that those are atoms in that picture?

Yes they are Scepti, we've been able to do this since 1981, the technology has become commonplace enough that people are building their own STMs (Scanning Tunnelling Microscope) as DIY projects.

So what is the mesh structure if those are atoms in it?

Well it's a picture of the boundary so one side is anodized aluminum and the other is unoxidized aluminum.  I'm going to guess the neat honeycomb pattern is the unoxidized aluminum.

More importantly though:

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 09, 2016, 06:51:34 AM

Quote from: SpJunk on August 09, 2016, 06:48:33 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 09, 2016, 04:23:48 AM

The fact that you rant on and on without even thinking on it, means you have zero chance of understanding it.

Come back when you're a bit calmer and willing to try to understand.

Oh, I understood much better than you would like me to.

Go back to that video with scale in vacuum chamber.

Tell me how much the weight changed in reality.

How much that weight SHOULD change in your theory?

How big is the difference?

Dare you to do it.

How about you get a chamber and evacuate it all and follow my experiments to the letter. Are you game?

Do you have this experiment detailed yet?

Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 10, 2016, 02:12:09 AM

So it's not solid. It appears solid to your eye and can hold in pressure.

Let me explain something to you, see if you understand on a basic level.
Get a glass and fill it with water. Place a beer mat over the top and tip it upside down.
The atmospheric pressure pushes the beer mat to the glass and no water leaks out even though the beer mat is essentially porous.

However, there's massive differences in porousity in many materials. It jjust depends on the make up.
Put a few dozen pin holes into the beer mat and tip it upside down. It doesn't leak...but why?
Surely it's really porous now?

See what I'm saying?

Ouch. We have a problem.
You clearly pointed out that atmospheric pressure works up as well.
It presses beer mat up, towards the glass.
That experiment showed another thing:

If we take one single DVD disc, with top and bottom surfaces equal,
and hold it horizontally by the edges, it will be under the same pressure from top and from bottom.
When we release it, it should stay there.
But it still falls down.
How?

Must try to get vacuum pump and see that thing with a vacuum in glass bottle that we talked about.

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 11, 2016, 06:52:30 PM

Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

I didn't mention atoms but we can use atoms if it makes it all more easily accepted for explanations.
There is never empty space and when I say empty, I mean a true vacuum in Earth's cell. Outside of it who knows what. Possibly infinite similar Earth's - but that's not important right now.
What is important is understanding that gravity is crap and denpressure is the reality of how we exist in our Earth prison cell.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 01:39:14 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 11, 2016, 06:52:30 PM

Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

I didn't mention atoms but we can use atoms if it makes it all more easily accepted for explanations.
There is never empty space and when I say empty, I mean a true vacuum in Earth's cell. Outside of it who knows what. Possibly infinite similar Earth's - but that's not important right now.
What is important is understanding that gravity is crap and denpressure is the reality of how we exist in our Earth prison cell.

where do you get your rubbish from? Hasnt 120 years of scientific experimentation told you (and everyone else) that matter is largely empty space? Why must you simply ignore and dispute the thoroughly proven? Everything you say on such matters fails even the tiniest attempt and provability while the things you debunk are 100% proven.

Quote from: SpJunk on August 11, 2016, 07:33:45 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 10, 2016, 02:12:09 AM

So it's not solid. It appears solid to your eye and can hold in pressure.

Let me explain something to you, see if you understand on a basic level.
Get a glass and fill it with water. Place a beer mat over the top and tip it upside down.
The atmospheric pressure pushes the beer mat to the glass and no water leaks out even though the beer mat is essentially porous.

However, there's massive differences in porousity in many materials. It jjust depends on the make up.
Put a few dozen pin holes into the beer mat and tip it upside down. It doesn't leak...but why?
Surely it's really porous now?

See what I'm saying?

Ouch. We have a problem.
You clearly pointed out that atmospheric pressure works up as well.
It presses beer mat up, towards the glass.
That experiment showed another thing:

If we take one single DVD disc, with top and bottom surfaces equal,
and hold it horizontally by the edges, it will be under the same pressure from top and from bottom.
When we release it, it should stay there.
But it still falls down.
How?

Must try to get vacuum pump and see that thing with a vacuum in glass bottle that we talked about.

One thing you forgot.

You used energy to place that DVD into the atmosphere and it's own density is pushing into it which when released will push back through the atmosphere below aided by the atmospheric push above which it is compressing due to your energy applied to holding it.

I've explained this so many times and yet you can't grasp it?

So if they're atoms and the mesh in un-oxidised aluminium then they must be made up of even smaller atoms, right?
Because those smaller atoms are causing the mesh shape.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:44:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 01:39:14 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 11, 2016, 06:52:30 PM

Scepti, just to be clear, are atoms a solid mass configured like "bubbles in a sink" with no empty space in between?  I seem to recall you stating as such.

I didn't mention atoms but we can use atoms if it makes it all more easily accepted for explanations.
There is never empty space and when I say empty, I mean a true vacuum in Earth's cell. Outside of it who knows what. Possibly infinite similar Earth's - but that's not important right now.
What is important is understanding that gravity is crap and denpressure is the reality of how we exist in our Earth prison cell.

where do you get your rubbish from? Hasnt 120 years of scientific experimentation told you (and everyone else) that matter is largely empty space? Why must you simply ignore and dispute the thoroughly proven? Everything you say on such matters fails even the tiniest attempt and provability while the things you debunk are 100% proven.

How can anything operate in empty space?
Just explain it in simple terms.

Don't come at me with this 120 of this and that.
Let me explain something.
You see someone in the distance. Are you looking through empty space?
You see fish in a fish tank. Are you looking through empty space?
You look at stuff under a microscope. Are you looking through empty space?

Just tell me what your empty space is and tell me how it works?
Use your own words.

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 11:29:43 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 10:18:51 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 08:42:04 PM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 05:23:09 PM

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   

Agreed!

I stand corrected with regards to the process of changing the colour of aluminium, the rest still hold true.
Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

That is complete drivel and internally inconsistent with your own theory.

If gravity is false as you claim and only air pressure holds things down then the difference in air pressure on the various sides of a DVD are IDENTICAL and therefore the forces are equal. It should hover in space.

Air pressure doesnt push in a single direction. Air - and all gases - push in ALL directions and that is an immutable fact, like it or not.

The air pressure on a thin disc like a DVD is identical top and bottom.  When you talk about 'energy' to put the DVD in the atmosphere you ironically refer to POTENTIAL ENERGY, the energy expended to lift an object up against a vector force which is in the case... GRAVITY.

There is no potential energy created by simply moving an object in a consistent pressure  environment.

So you are wrong.

Quote

So if they're atoms and the mesh in un-oxidised aluminium then they must be made up of even smaller atoms, right?
Because those smaller atoms are causing the mesh shape.

What? Can you rephrase the question?

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

That is complete drivel and internally inconsistent with your own theory.

Not at all. It's entirely consistent and I've been saying it for long enough.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

If gravity is false as you claim and only air pressure holds things down then the difference in air pressure on the various sides of a DVD are IDENTICAL and therefore the forces are equal. It should hover in space.

The air pressure isn't identical on the DVD. Think about it.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

Air pressure doesnt push in a single direction. Air - and all gases - push in ALL directions and that is an immutable fact, like it or not.

Yes it does but only against any objects pushing into it, which is never equal.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

The air pressure on a thin disc like a DVD is identical top and bottom.  When you talk about 'energy' to put the DVD in the atmosphere you ironically refer to POTENTIAL ENERGY, the energy expended to lift an object up against a vector force which is in the case... GRAVITY.

To get potential energy you must first expend energy. You did that by lifting up the DVD. Holding it is still expending your energy but we would still call this potential energy now because the DVD as a dense object has been pushed through the atmosphere and has that atmosphere pushing back on it's density. Only your grip stops it from happening.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

There is no potential energy created by simply moving an object in a consistent pressure  environment.

So you are wrong.

Push down on the the chain of the pendulum of a grandfather clock and you used energy to push the weights to the top. Holding it before release and you're looking at potential energy. Let loose and you have the atmosphere pushing back onto the dense weights that are displacing the atmosphere they're in.

How does the dye get into the aluminium?

Wow... I am trying to work out how to explain this using simple enough terms and finding there is probably little chance of finding simplistic enough terms to explain it to you.

we have atoms. they are composed of 63(?) subatomic particles and the vast amount of the inside of an atom is EMPTY SPACE ie nothing is in there whatsoever. atoms do not expand or shrink. Each element (and its isotopes) have a fixed and unvarying size

Atoms form molecules. These molecules do not increase in size unless other atoms are added or taken away to form different compounds.

in gases (the easiest example) the molecules get further and further apart as the pressure decreases until in outer space (a place you dont think exists!) these molecules can be so far apart that there might be just one in a hundred cubic metres.

This is called empty space.  A pure vaccum DOES exist with no molecules whatsoever, but is hard to do on earth.  But a very close approximation of one is possible for experimentation purposes.

Do you actually have a problem with the concept of empty space?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 02:23:39 AM

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

That is complete drivel and internally inconsistent with your own theory.

Not at all. It's entirely consistent and I've been saying it for long enough.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

If gravity is false as you claim and only air pressure holds things down then the difference in air pressure on the various sides of a DVD are IDENTICAL and therefore the forces are equal. It should hover in space.

The air pressure isn't identical on the DVD. Think about it.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

Air pressure doesnt push in a single direction. Air - and all gases - push in ALL directions and that is an immutable fact, like it or not.

Yes it does but only against any objects pushing into it, which is never equal.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

The air pressure on a thin disc like a DVD is identical top and bottom.  When you talk about 'energy' to put the DVD in the atmosphere you ironically refer to POTENTIAL ENERGY, the energy expended to lift an object up against a vector force which is in the case... GRAVITY.

To get potential energy you must first expend energy. You did that by lifting up the DVD. Holding it is still expending your energy but we would still call this potential energy now because the DVD as a dense object has been pushed through the atmosphere and has that atmosphere pushing back on it's density. Only your grip stops it from happening.

Quote from: fliggs on August 12, 2016, 01:50:53 AM

There is no potential energy created by simply moving an object in a consistent pressure  environment.

So you are wrong.

Push down on the the chain of the pendulum of a grandfather clock and you used energy to push the weights to the top. Holding it before release and you're looking at potential energy. Let loose and you have the atmosphere pushing back onto the dense weights that are displacing the atmosphere they're in.

the air pressure IS identical on all sides of a DVD. I think your problem is that you think air pressure has a DIRECTION which in your case is always conveniently down. Thats why no hose can squirt water under pressure UPWARDS, right?

the air pressure on both sides of the DVD is absolutely identical thus meaning that the forces must be equal and opposite and the DVD will hvoer in space. Except it doesnt.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 02:10:49 AM

How does the dye get into the aluminium?

One thing you forgot.

You used energy to place that DVD into the atmosphere and it's own density is pushing into it which when released will push back through the atmosphere below aided by the atmospheric push above which it is compressing due to your energy applied to holding it.

I've explained this so many times and yet you can't grasp it?

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 11:53:01 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 11:29:43 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 10:18:51 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 08:42:04 PM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 05:23:09 PM

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   

Agreed!

I stand corrected with regards to the process of changing the colour of aluminium, the rest still hold true.
Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

How does the dye get into the aluminium?

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 12, 2016, 01:55:21 AM

Quote

So if they're atoms and the mesh in un-oxidised aluminium then they must be made up of even smaller atoms, right?
Because those smaller atoms are causing the mesh shape.

What? Can you rephrase the question?

Ok I'll try and make this easier.

If you liken the picture to a honeycomb and the hexagon full of honey if your atom, then what are the outer structures made of?

So an atom  has 63 smaller atoms stuck to it? Explain in simplistic terms.

So if all atoms are fixed and are all the same size and do not expand or shrink, then how do they actually make up a structure that basically gels?

Let me explain. In denpressure theory, any molecules expand and contract within dense objects, creating more or less push on each other. This can attract or repel as we know it. Basically push together or push away.

To push together as in the case of a window clamp as a big simplistic instance, we can see that the bond to the window is due to the expansion of matter against the compression of matter. Or to us, it's evacuating pressure by force upon an object to add to the external force upon that object, which creates what we could construe as basically GLUED on.

Go right down the scale like this for anything and that is exactly what's happening.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 02:10:49 AM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 11:53:01 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 11:29:43 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 10:18:51 PM

Quote from: TheRealBillNye on August 11, 2016, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 11, 2016, 08:42:04 PM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 11, 2016, 05:23:09 PM

To put this in context, anodizing aluminium is the process of creating aluminium parts in different colours. The colour is determined by the ratio of Aluminium oxide to Aluminium, different ratios will refract light at different frequencies.
 

Anodizing aluminum allows the material to be dyed. Not all anodized aluminum is dyed.

Anodized aluminum that is colored is colored by dye.   

Agreed!

I stand corrected with regards to the process of changing the colour of aluminium, the rest still hold true.
Anodized aluminum is colored by dye.

How does the dye get into the aluminium?

During the anodising process dye is introduces to the aluminium surface, the dye gets trapped within pores in the surface, pores open up during the process and eventually close when anodising is complete.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 02:26:25 AM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 12, 2016, 01:55:21 AM

Quote

So if they're atoms and the mesh in un-oxidised aluminium then they must be made up of even smaller atoms, right?
Because those smaller atoms are causing the mesh shape.

What? Can you rephrase the question?

Ok I'll try and make this easier.

If you liken the picture to a honeycomb and the hexagon full of honey if your atom, then what are the outer structures made of?

Nothing, your analogy is flawed. A more appropriate analogy would be superglueing ping pong balls to each other on a table and photographing them from above, the space around the ping pong balls is made of nothing, the mesh pattern is purely a product of their spacial arrangement.

Quote

So an atom  has 63 smaller atoms stuck to it? Explain in simplistic terms.

No, an atom is made of up to 63 particle types that are smaller than an atom. These smaller than an atom particles are what we refer to as sub-atomic particles. Examples are electrons, protons neutrons, photons, quarks, leptons etc etc.

Quote

So if all atoms are fixed and are all the same size and do not expand or shrink, then how do they actually make up a structure that basically gels?

No, all atoms are not the same size, atoms of different elements have differing sizes. Atoms of the same element are the same size. The size of an atom is determined by how many of the different sub-atomic particles the atom is made of. The table of periodic elements describes exactly this relationship.

Quote

Let me explain. In denpressure theory, any molecules expand and contract within dense objects, creating more or less push on each other. This can attract or repel as we know it. Basically push together or push away.

To push together as in the case of a window clamp as a big simplistic instance, we can see that the bond to the window is due to the expansion of matter against the compression of matter. Or to us, it's evacuating pressure by force upon an object to add to the external force upon that object, which creates what we could construe as basically GLUED on.

Go right down the scale like this for anything and that is exactly what's happening.

No, at the atomic scale, the "glue" that binds atoms together is the atomic charge of the atom. It is this charge that is the reason we have electricity, "denpressure" has nothing to do with it.

I know guys, I have oversimplified things a little, but I'm trying to talk to Scepti so forgive me, lol.

Now have a serious think on that and you just might get where I'm coming from with TRAPPED atmosphere.

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 12, 2016, 05:06:01 AM

Quote

So an atom  has 63 smaller atoms stuck to it? Explain in simplistic terms.

No, an atom is made of up to 63 particle types that are smaller than an atom. These smaller than an atom particles are what we refer to as sub-atomic particles. Examples are electrons, protons neutrons, photons, quarks, leptons etc etc.

Quote

So if all atoms are fixed and are all the same size and do not expand or shrink, then how do they actually make up a structure that basically gels?

No, all atoms are not the same size, atoms of different elements have differing sizes. Atoms of the same element are the same size. The size of an atom is determined by how many of the different sub-atomic particles the atom is made of. The table of periodic elements describes exactly this relationship.

Quote

Let me explain. In denpressure theory, any molecules expand and contract within dense objects, creating more or less push on each other. This can attract or repel as we know it. Basically push together or push away.

To push together as in the case of a window clamp as a big simplistic instance, we can see that the bond to the window is due to the expansion of matter against the compression of matter. Or to us, it's evacuating pressure by force upon an object to add to the external force upon that object, which creates what we could construe as basically GLUED on.

Go right down the scale like this for anything and that is exactly what's happening.

No, at the atomic scale, the "glue" that binds atoms together is the atomic charge of the atom. It is this charge that is the reason we have electricity, "denpressure" has nothing to do with it.

I know guys, I have oversimplified things a little, but I'm trying to talk to Scepti so forgive me, lol.

Ok then, show me the 63 particle type that are smaller than the atom and let's go from there.

It is not easy to grasp, for one simple reason:

Atmosphere pushes in all directions.
Imagine big crate full of marbles.

When I pushed DVD up, it could have edge up.
Even if it didn't, molecules will flow around and below, fill the gap and stay there.

Another thing: that DVD was produced at altitude of 250 yards above sea level.
It will still fall into the hole even if the hole is 1 mile deep.
It will fall much deeper than the altitude it started to exist.

You see where the problem is?

In that big crate, instead of marbles imagine marshmallows, soft and pressed when moving through them.
They will still fill the gap.

Move through them horizontally. You will still use your energy to place your body (or whatever you move) to that position to the right.
Why atmosphere doesn't use the same principle to move you back to the left, where you started from?

If molecules are pressurized under Dome, they are pressurized by Dome's sides to the left and right,
the same way as by Dome's top "to the down" and by Earth's surface "to the up".
So, Atmospheric Pressure works horizontally as well. And up the same as down.
Why it doesn't produce horizontal forces?

Also, when you cool it to (minus) -196 Celsius, nitrogen from air will condense into liquid and start dripping down?
Why, if it was so comfortable in that place before it was liquified?

Do you now understand why is it hard to grasp?
This theory is new and lot of it is unexplained.

How can I explain it to Mr Bullwinkle?

Teach me.

Quote

Now have a serious think on that and you just might get where I'm coming from with TRAPPED atmosphere.

The dye permeates the surface layer to only a few microns thickness, scratch coloured aluminium and shiny bare metal is revealed. Expose many metals to atmosphere and an oxide compound of that metal forms on its surface, for example expose iron to the atmosphere and rust forms, rust is iron oxide. Expose the metal called magnesium to oxygen in the presence of a little heat and it will catch fire.

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Quote from: sceptimatic on August 12, 2016, 05:36:13 AM

Quote from: SkepticMike on August 12, 2016, 05:06:01 AM

Quote

So an atom  has 63 smaller atoms stuck to it? Explain in simplistic terms.

No, an atom is made of up to 63 particle types that are smaller than an atom. These smaller than an atom particles are what we refer to as sub-atomic particles. Examples are electrons, protons neutrons, photons, quarks, leptons etc etc.

Quote

So if all atoms are fixed and are all the same size and do not expand or shrink, then how do they actually make up a structure that basically gels?

No, all atoms are not the same size, atoms of different elements have differing sizes. Atoms of the same element are the same size. The size of an atom is determined by how many of the different sub-atomic particles the atom is made of. The table of periodic elements describes exactly this relationship.

Quote

Let me explain. In denpressure theory, any molecules expand and contract within dense objects, creating more or less push on each other. This can attract or repel as we know it. Basically push together or push away.

To push together as in the case of a window clamp as a big simplistic instance, we can see that the bond to the window is due to the expansion of matter against the compression of matter. Or to us, it's evacuating pressure by force upon an object to add to the external force upon that object, which creates what we could construe as basically GLUED on.

Go right down the scale like this for anything and that is exactly what's happening.

No, at the atomic scale, the "glue" that binds atoms together is the atomic charge of the atom. It is this charge that is the reason we have electricity, "denpressure" has nothing to do with it.

I know guys, I have oversimplified things a little, but I'm trying to talk to Scepti so forgive me, lol.

Ok then, show me the 63 particle type that are smaller than the atom and let's go from there.

Google them for yourself.

Ok if you can't grasp it then fair enough.