iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 03:05:30 PM

Quote from: Woody on August 01, 2016, 02:32:46 PM

I'll just ask this one question since I think it may have been missed in

I pushed my refrigerator today and moved it.  I am unable to lift my refrigerator completely off the ground myself.  Why does it require less force to move something by pushing it than it does to lift it?  If air pressure is what keeps things on the ground why does it only act in one direction?

Because you are using the floor as your leverage to push atmosphere out of the way at the front and forcing it to come round the back of you which aids you in your push, once you are underway.
It's why it's easier to push something once you gain motion, because you are compressing the air in front of the fridge and yourself and sending it around the fridge as well as dropping the pressure down from above as you move. This creates a push back on your.

To lift  your fridge, you have to not only bend your limbs but also push that fridge into atmosphere to send that compressed atmosphere around that fridge. The issue is in using the entire fridge to compress it whilst only using your limbs as leverage as opposed to having the use of limbs plus fridge on the floor as leverage in your horizontal movement.

What?

You'd have less air resistance and surface friction going up than forwards if only air pressure played a role in your definition and therefore it'd be easier to go up then forward with the fridge.   But it's not.

Let me know when you want to try and understand what's been said and I'll consider trying to help you.

Can you explain how the air flow makes it easier to push?

Can you explain how the air flow makes it easier to push?

I've just explained it a few posts back. Read it and absorb it.

I'm confirming.  The compression of air in front of moving object makes a wake behind the object that makes it easier for said object to move forward and therefore uses less energy to move forward.

That's what you're asserting right?

I'm confirming.  The compression of air in front of moving object makes a wake behind the object that makes it easier for said object to move forward and therefore uses less energy to move forward.

That's what you're asserting right?

Once in motion, yes.

Is the calculatable?  Do you know what percentage of wake pushes an object forward?  Is it scalable?

But the air doesn't compress. Take a gague and read it.

Also, if pressure causes weight, does MORE pressure cause MORE weight? If I were to go in a room with twice as much air pressure, would I weigh twice as much?

Is the calculatable?  Do you know what percentage of wake pushes an object forward?  Is it scalable?

No need for calculations. It's about understanding that gravity is a complete and utter fabrication and that denpressure is a force that shows much more reality to a domed flattish Earth.

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 03:38:39 PM

Is the calculatable?  Do you know what percentage of wake pushes an object forward?  Is it scalable?

No need for calculations. It's about understanding that gravity is a complete and utter fabrication and that denpressure is a force that shows much more reality to a domed flattish Earth.

No need for calculations? How come aircraft can perfectly calculate the life generated by wings if there is no need for calculations?

So your model just "works" without anybody knowing HOW it works?

I'll stick to the model that I know how it works. And can calculate using basic math.

But the air doesn't compress. Take a gague and read it.

Air does compress and I don't know what a gague is.

Also, if pressure causes weight, does MORE pressure cause MORE weight?

Yes.

If I were to go in a room with twice as much air pressure, would I weigh twice as much?

You would require scales in that room and that means the scales would take on that pressure onto the scale plate.

Do you know why valves close on tyres after air is pumped into the tyre?

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 03:42:45 PM

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 03:38:39 PM

Is the calculatable?  Do you know what percentage of wake pushes an object forward?  Is it scalable?

No need for calculations. It's about understanding that gravity is a complete and utter fabrication and that denpressure is a force that shows much more reality to a domed flattish Earth.

No need for calculations? How come aircraft can perfectly calculate the life generated by wings if there is no need for calculations?

So your model just "works" without anybody knowing HOW it works?

I'll stick to the model that I know how it works. And can calculate using basic math.

Calculations can be made for all kinds of stuff to have them work how we require them. I'm simply telling you that there's no need to use them to explain what I'm explaining.

Anyway, you stick to your version, I'm fine with that.

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 03:38:39 PM

Is the calculatable?  Do you know what percentage of wake pushes an object forward?  Is it scalable?

No need for calculations. It's about understanding that gravity is a complete and utter fabrication and that denpressure is a force that shows much more reality to a domed flattish Earth.

I've not mentioned gravity.  And calculations are always needed.  How else would you measure something.

How else would you take advantage of it, study it.  Say we wanted to find the optimal speed to take advantage of the wake, what speed would that be.  Does the shape of the object change the wake, or how the wake affects the push that it provides the object?  These are things that would lead to more fuel effecient vehicles right?

I'd say calculations are paramount.

Then how come I weigh the same on top of Mt. Crested Butte (11,875 feet, 14.06 PSI) as I do on Galveston Beach? (0 feet, 14.6 PSI)

By your logic, I should weigh .96 times as much. About 6 pounds less. Yet I weigh exactly the same.

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 01, 2016, 08:55:30 AM

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?

Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.


Your back

So if nothing is pushing/pulling the topmost molecules down on the layers below....

Stack billions of footballs and soon enough the bottom ones will be crushed to the size of peas and yet the top ones will stay as a football.
Atmospheric stacking.

Then what is pushing/pulling the bottom layers of air down to cause the increase in air pressure and "stacking"?

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 03:28:43 PM

I'm confirming.  The compression of air in front of moving object makes a wake behind the object that makes it easier for said object to move forward and therefore uses less energy to move forward.

That's what you're asserting right?

Once in motion, yes.

Nobody could really believe this stuff! Of course if you are empty headed enough. . . . . 

A tiny bit of thought would indicate
that the "piling up of air or water" in front of an object would cause a high pressure region that would resist the progress.
Likewise the "lack of air or water" behind the object would cause a low pressure region that again impede progress.

Still, I guess we only read Sceppy's pronouncements for light entertainment.

Quote from: Woody on August 01, 2016, 02:32:46 PM

I'll just ask this one question since I think it may have been missed in my last post.

I pushed my refrigerator today and moved it.  I am unable to lift my refrigerator completely off the ground myself.  Why does it require less force to move something by pushing it than it does to lift it?  If air pressure is what keeps things on the ground why does it only act in one direction?

Because you are using the floor as your leverage to push atmosphere out of the way at the front and forcing it to come round the back of you which aids you in your push, once you are underway.
It's why it's easier to push something once you gain motion, because you are compressing the air in front of the fridge and yourself and sending it around the fridge as well as dropping the pressure down from above as you move. This creates a push back on your.

To lift  your fridge, you have to not only bend your limbs but also push that fridge into atmosphere to send that compressed atmosphere around that fridge. The issue is in using the entire fridge to compress it whilst only using your limbs as leverage as opposed to having the use of limbs plus fridge on the floor as leverage in your horizontal movement.

The surface area of the fridge compressing the air as you lift it is less than the surface area compressing the air as you move it sideways. 

Why does the advantage of air coming back around to push once you are underway disappear when lifting vs pushing the fridge? 

You're still bending your limbs and pushing off the floor to move the fridge sideways.

If anything, according the physics of denpressure, it should be harder to push the fridge across the floor than it is to lift, because you have to deal with the added friction of the fridge's contact with the floor.

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 09:09:58 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 01, 2016, 08:55:30 AM

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?

Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.


Your back

So if nothing is pushing/pulling the topmost molecules down on the layers below....

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 02:48:27 PM

Stack billions of footballs and soon enough the bottom ones will be crushed to the size of peas and yet the top ones will stay as a football.
Atmospheric stacking.

Then what is pushing/pulling the bottom layers of air down to cause the increase in air pressure and "stacking"?

The push against each molecules in the stack from below.

Then how come I weigh the same on top of Mt. Crested Butte (11,875 feet, 14.06 PSI) as I do on Galveston Beach? (0 feet, 14.6 PSI)

By your logic, I should weigh .96 times as much. About 6 pounds less. Yet I weigh exactly the same.

"Slight" correction. According to Air Pressure at Altitude Calculator the sea level air pressure is about 14.70 psi and at 11,875 feet should be about 9.40 psi. Looks bad for Sceppy's "pressure causes weight"!

 

[1] All payments by direct deposit into numbered bank account.

OK, I should weigh 3 pounds less, but I still weigh the exact same.

Quote from: AdamSK on August 01, 2016, 11:08:03 AM

The air resistance on lead and copper balls of the same size should be very little, so if you drop them they should accelerate at the same rate.

What are the units of 'air resistance' and how is it measured?

Units of force. Measured empirically by blowing air over a body and measuring the force pushing against it. Roughly proportional to velocity and surface area.

Quote from: AdamSK on August 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM

The other test we should be able to do is the following.

Have a jet of air blowing straight up.  Put a piece of cardboard in it such that it is suspended in the air - the downward force is entirely counteracted by the upward force of the air.
Now, replace the piece of cardboard with a sheet of metal.  If the "weight is due to air pressure" model is accurate, than the metal should be suspended in the air exactly as the cardboard was, correct?
 Because air acts proportionately on both objects, so however much more the downward air is pressing on the object should be the same proportion as the upward air.

Do you agree with this, that the same pressure of upward air will counteract the weight of any object?  If not, why not?  That seems to be what your model would predict.

No I don't agree with it and the reason I don't is because of what I explained earlier about the metal displacing more atmosphere due to its density not allowing atmosphere to penetrate the metal anywhere near the amount it can with cardboard.

Honestly I want  you to seriously try to grasp what I'm telling you.

I'm honestly trying to understand what you're telling me.
You said I would feel more force from the wind in sticking a piece of metal out the window than a piece of cardboard of the same area.  Or did I misunderstand?

And the scale spring compresses more for the metal block than the cardboard block because the air is exerting more force on it. Or did I misunderstand?

But you are also saying that if I blow on both a piece of cardboard and a piece of metal that I will measure the same force. Right?

It seems like air is pushing harder on the metal some of the time but not any harder other times, and I haven't figured out how you are deciding which is which.

What I am trying to do is find a controlled laboratory experiment where the gravity model and the air pressure model make measurably different predictions.  It would help if you could explain why, when the air pressing on the cardboard sheet from below pushes just as hard as the air pushing it from above, the same would not be true for the metal sheet.

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 01, 2016, 04:04:11 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 09:09:58 AM

Quote from: 29silhouette on August 01, 2016, 08:55:30 AM

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?

Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.


Your back

So if nothing is pushing/pulling the topmost molecules down on the layers below....

Quote from: sceptimatic on August 01, 2016, 02:48:27 PM

Stack billions of footballs and soon enough the bottom ones will be crushed to the size of peas and yet the top ones will stay as a football.
Atmospheric stacking.

Then what is pushing/pulling the bottom layers of air down to cause the increase in air pressure and "stacking"?

The push against each molecules in the stack from below.

Your sentence doesn't really make sense as it's written. 

If they are being "crushed" (increased pressure) at the bottom, then something has to be pulling/pushing them down, otherwise atmospheric pressure would be equal from the surface to the dome. 

Quote from: Charming Anarchist on August 01, 2016, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: sandmanMike on July 29, 2016, 04:17:46 AM

How does Air Pressure cause weight?

The word "weight" is defined as such.  There is no causality. 

Quote from: AdamSK on August 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM

Have a jet of air blowing straight up. 

Able?? 
Come back when you have (a) constructed such a magical jet and (b) proven it is blowing air "straight" up. 



HINT:  Do not bother.  It is impossible to construct what you propose as an experiment and your proposal has NO BEARING upon reality. 











Message to honest true-earthers: 
The true form of the earth is not a function of any answers to ridiculous and irrelevent questions.

Are you saying you can't point a desk fan up?

  No. 


I am saying that you can "point a desk fan up" all you want but you are NEVER going to "Have a jet of air blowing straight up."  Your bullshit experiment is both a physical impossibility and a a dead end, even if it was possible to execute. 

I am saying your instruction "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is pure fantasy.  It is impossible to do and impossible to demonstrate to be true even if it was true. 
Your "Have a jet of air blowing straight up your ass." is your fantasy and COMPLETELY USELESS in discussing the true form of the earth. 

I am saying "outer space" is bullshit. 
I am saying "zero vaccum chamber" is non-existent bullshit. 
I am saying "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is more bullshit. 







Message to true-earthers: 
Air is constantly moving laterally as well as up and down. 
The apple falls down to the ground because air CAN NOT "blow straight up" even if you forced it. 

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 01:34:07 PM

Quote from: Charming Anarchist on August 01, 2016, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: sandmanMike on July 29, 2016, 04:17:46 AM

How does Air Pressure cause weight?

The word "weight" is defined as such.  There is no causality. 

Quote from: AdamSK on August 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM

Have a jet of air blowing straight up. 

Able?? 
Come back when you have (a) constructed such a magical jet and (b) proven it is blowing air "straight" up. 



HINT:  Do not bother.  It is impossible to construct what you propose as an experiment and your proposal has NO BEARING upon reality. 











Message to honest true-earthers: 
The true form of the earth is not a function of any answers to ridiculous and irrelevent questions.

Are you saying you can't point a desk fan up?

  No. 


I am saying that you can "point a desk fan up" all you want but you are NEVER going to "Have a jet of air blowing straight up."  Your bullshit experiment is both a physical impossibility and a a dead end, even if it was possible to execute. 

I am saying your instruction "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is pure fantasy.  It is impossible to do and impossible to demonstrate to be true even if it was true. 
Your "Have a jet of air blowing straight up your ass." is your fantasy and COMPLETELY USELESS in discussing the true form of the earth. 

I am saying "outer space" is bullshit. 
I am saying "zero vaccum chamber" is non-existent bullshit. 
I am saying "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is more bullshit. 







Message to true-earthers: 
Air is constantly moving laterally as well as up and down. 
The apple falls down to the ground because air CAN NOT "blow straight up" even if you forced it.

So if you blow through a straw that is pointing straight up, where is the air going?

Because you can definitely blow through a straw straight up.

I'll change my question a bit.

I have an object it can weigh what ever you want to and looks similar to this:



If I use a hydraulic piston with a variable pump and I place it first so it can push the weight sideways and then place it underneath to lift the weight.

The piston will be placed on the weight on the left side as pictured to push it sideways.  Then directly underneath as pictured to push it up.

I increase the pressure both times until the weight is pushed.  Which would require me to increase the pressure more to move the weight?

Assuming the answer given to my question about the refrigerator it should require more force to move the weight sideways.  Since there is more surface area resisting the movement of the weight. 

If this is incorrect then you need a solid answer as to why air pressure only pushes down and not affect things moving laterally.

Of course you also need a good explanation as to why the atmosphere is denser at lower altitudes. Then what is keeping it from just floating away from Earth.  If you believe in a dome that would answer what keeps it on Earth.

If the atmosphere is held on by a dome, then why isn't all the air spread out evenly (as every gas experiment ever says it should)

If the atmosphere is held on by a dome, then why isn't all the air spread out evenly (as every gas experiment ever says it should)

I forgot to add that bit to my post.  Without something pulling down on the atmosphere it should be evenly distributed and not denser at lower altitudes. 

I am saying that you can "point a desk fan up" all you want but you are NEVER going to "Have a jet of air blowing straight up."  Your bullshit experiment is both a physical impossibility and a a dead end, even if it was possible to execute. 

I am saying your instruction "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is pure fantasy.  It is impossible to do and impossible to demonstrate to be true even if it was true. 
Your "Have a jet of air blowing straight up your ass." is your fantasy and COMPLETELY USELESS in discussing the true form of the earth. 

I am saying "outer space" is bullshit. 
I am saying "zero vaccum chamber" is non-existent bullshit. 
I am saying "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is more bullshit. 


Message to true-earthers: 
Air is constantly moving laterally as well as up and down. 
The apple falls down to the ground because air CAN NOT "blow straight up" even if you forced it.

Did some village lose their idiot recently?   I think I found him.     Either that,  or this post is a candidate for the most obvious troll of the month.

Air can't blow straight up?...   wow, the flat earth community must be proud to have such people in their midst.

Quote from: sandmanMike on August 01, 2016, 01:34:07 PM

Quote from: Charming Anarchist on August 01, 2016, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: sandmanMike on July 29, 2016, 04:17:46 AM

How does Air Pressure cause weight?

The word "weight" is defined as such.  There is no causality. 

Quote from: AdamSK on August 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM

Have a jet of air blowing straight up. 

Able?? 
Come back when you have (a) constructed such a magical jet and (b) proven it is blowing air "straight" up. 



HINT:  Do not bother.  It is impossible to construct what you propose as an experiment and your proposal has NO BEARING upon reality. 











Message to honest true-earthers: 
The true form of the earth is not a function of any answers to ridiculous and irrelevent questions.

Are you saying you can't point a desk fan up?

  No. 


I am saying that you can "point a desk fan up" all you want but you are NEVER going to "Have a jet of air blowing straight up."  Your bullshit experiment is both a physical impossibility and a a dead end, even if it was possible to execute. 

I am saying your instruction "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is pure fantasy.  It is impossible to do and impossible to demonstrate to be true even if it was true. 
Your "Have a jet of air blowing straight up your ass." is your fantasy and COMPLETELY USELESS in discussing the true form of the earth. 

I am saying "outer space" is bullshit. 
I am saying "zero vaccum chamber" is non-existent bullshit. 
I am saying "Have a jet of air blowing straight up." is more bullshit. 







Message to true-earthers: 
Air is constantly moving laterally as well as up and down. 
The apple falls down to the ground because air CAN NOT "blow straight up" even if you forced it.

I can blow air straight up, such that a light object like a piece of paper or cardboard or a ping pong ball hovers above the ground for as long as I keep up the air flow. 
Are you denying that this is possible?  Or are you saying that when I do this, what is happening is something different than what I am describing?

OMG! I can't believe my eyes!! Now the whole world changed upside down for me!! God doesn't exist! The Earth is Flat! Instead of water there is whiskey in the oceans! I'll go swimming...