iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight

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SpJunk

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #210 on: August 07, 2016, 10:22:04 PM »
Gravity produces force that attracts two bodies with mass to one another.
F = (G * m1 * m2) / d^2.
F - force of mutual attraction
G - gravitational constant, (6.67 E-11 m3 kg-1 s-2)
m1, m2 - masses of bodies
d - distance between their centers of masses

While G is hard to measure with same accuracy as other constants,
anyone can see at home if gravity exists or not.

Use this video as setting:

(it is called Cavendish Experiment)
but do not trust it.
There are lot of videos on YouTube saying two oposite things:
Some say "it worked, this is how".
Others say "this is bullshit, nobody did the experiment after Cavendish".
Well, first ones obviously did.
Anyway,
one side could move beam in stop motion,
other side could hide some blockage to the beam.

Do it yourself to make sure nobody tampers with your stuff.
Use objects heavy enough (with enough mass, both on beam and on floor), so they can act in some acceptable time.
Unless your parents are Flat Earthers and won't let you do it.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein

"Your lack of simplicity is main reason why not many people would bother to try to understand you." - S.M.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #211 on: August 07, 2016, 11:53:52 PM »
Now, why are they pushing?
Because they are stacked and in RESISTANCE to each other.
Let's look again at what you stated earlier...

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?
Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.
Your back

If I line up 10 small blocks, all touching, which end is under the greatest pressure if all are at rest and not pushing or being pushed one way or the other? If one end is not pushing at the next one in line, then that next one is not pushing against the one beyond it.

The pressure will equalize if nothing is pushing each individual molecule all in one direction. 

You said nothing is pushing the molecules, so why is there higher pressure at one end than the other?
Read what I said. I said nothing is pushing on the back of the molecule at the top of the stack.
Your 10 small block analogy touching would only explain dormant molecules.

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #212 on: August 07, 2016, 11:56:51 PM »
Now, why are they pushing?
Because they are stacked and in RESISTANCE to each other.
Let's look again at what you stated earlier...

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?
Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.
Your back

If I line up 10 small blocks, all touching, which end is under the greatest pressure if all are at rest and not pushing or being pushed one way or the other? If one end is not pushing at the next one in line, then that next one is not pushing against the one beyond it.

The pressure will equalize if nothing is pushing each individual molecule all in one direction. 

You said nothing is pushing the molecules, so why is there higher pressure at one end than the other?
Read what I said. I said nothing is pushing on the back of the molecule at the top of the stack.
Your 10 small block analogy touching would only explain dormant molecules.

Scepti you are a giant hypocrite. I have seen you yourself describe the stacked atmosphere with an analogy relating to a human pyramid. Please tell me how these two analogies differ?

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #213 on: August 08, 2016, 12:07:04 AM »
So you saying air is moving under its own power downward?
It is moving due to agitation of being in a stack when energy is applied anywhere in that stack.
For instance: if one molecule expands into another it creates a push on push, or to us, a vibration.
I don't want to go this far yet because the simplicity needs to be grasped.


I have stood in many lines.

I can be in front of a line and push the person behind me.
Yes you can. Just think about this and you might understand.

Which brings us to the question:

What is causing the downward force?  Something has to be pushing or pulling things down.
There's no such thing in reality as pulling. We simply use pulling as a visual for what's really happening, which is a push.
The downward force for the millionth time is caused by molecules compressed and pushing against each other.
 

Lets just look at one molecule at the very top.  What causes the downward force is stacking according to your model.  What is pushing that top molecule down on the one below it?
Nothing. The top molecule is frozen. It's dormant because it would be at the top of the stack and under no push upwards, which means it cannot use the molecule below as a leverage to push up because there is nothing to push up against. It's simply under it's own mass being pushed up by the molecule below which is pushed up by the molecule below that and so on and so on.

If you can't grasp this then there's nothing else to say to you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #214 on: August 08, 2016, 12:09:11 AM »
Now, why are they pushing?
Because they are stacked and in RESISTANCE to each other.
Let's look again at what you stated earlier...

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?
Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.
Your back

If I line up 10 small blocks, all touching, which end is under the greatest pressure if all are at rest and not pushing or being pushed one way or the other? If one end is not pushing at the next one in line, then that next one is not pushing against the one beyond it.

The pressure will equalize if nothing is pushing each individual molecule all in one direction. 

You said nothing is pushing the molecules, so why is there higher pressure at one end than the other?
Read what I said. I said nothing is pushing on the back of the molecule at the top of the stack.
Your 10 small block analogy touching would only explain dormant molecules.

Scepti you are a giant hypocrite. I have seen you yourself describe the stacked atmosphere with an analogy relating to a human pyramid. Please tell me how these two analogies differ?
There's nothing hypocritical about what I've said. The only issue is in your people attempting to either twist stuff or simply cannot understand basic logic. Pick one because this is what's happening.

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #215 on: August 08, 2016, 12:22:34 AM »
Nothing. The top molecule is frozen. It's dormant because it would be at the top of the stack and under no push upwards, which means it cannot use the molecule below as a leverage to push up because there is nothing to push up against. It's simply under it's own mass being pushed up by the molecule below which is pushed up by the molecule below that and so on and so on.

If you can't grasp this then there's nothing else to say to you.
I am certain even you would agree that the lightest and least dense gases would be at the top of the stack. Let's just assume that the molecules at the very top are all hydrogen, the very lightest of all elements (although it could just as well be helium, let's just assume for now that it's hydrogen).

Ok, so near the top of the stack is where the smallest, least dense particles exist. These would exert a very small amount of force upon each other, resulting in the lowest possible air pressure the stacked model can produce. Yet to freeze into a solid that can actually form a dome, Hydrogen needs to be under about 160 Gigapascals of pressure (over 1.5 million times pressure at sea level) and at about -260° Centigrade (14 degrees above absolute zero)

Therefore the ice dome cannot exist
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 12:26:20 AM by TheRealBillNye »

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #216 on: August 08, 2016, 12:48:18 AM »
Nothing. The top molecule is frozen. It's dormant because it would be at the top of the stack and under no push upwards, which means it cannot use the molecule below as a leverage to push up because there is nothing to push up against. It's simply under it's own mass being pushed up by the molecule below which is pushed up by the molecule below that and so on and so on.

If you can't grasp this then there's nothing else to say to you.
I am certain even you would agree that the lightest and least dense gases would be at the top of the stack. Let's just assume that the molecules at the very top are all hydrogen, the very lightest of all elements (although it could just as well be helium, let's just assume for now that it's hydrogen).

Ok, so near the top of the stack is where the smallest, least dense particles exist. These would exert a very small amount of force upon each other, resulting in the lowest possible air pressure the stacked model can produce. Yet to freeze into a solid that can actually form a dome, Hydrogen needs to be under about 160 Gigapascals of pressure (over 1.5 million times pressure at sea level) and at about -260° Centigrade (14 degrees above absolute zero)

Therefore the ice dome cannot exist
Hydrogen in a tank. It leaks - what happens?

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #217 on: August 08, 2016, 01:15:10 AM »
If the tank leaks, pressure normalizes. The hydrogen reverts to a gaseous state.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #218 on: August 08, 2016, 01:19:01 AM »
If the tank leaks, pressure normalizes. The hydrogen reverts to a gaseous state.
Then what happens?

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #219 on: August 08, 2016, 01:22:34 AM »
...Nothing? I am not sure what answer you are expecting. You broke your compressor and lost your pure hydrogen sample. Simple as that.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #220 on: August 08, 2016, 01:24:00 AM »
...Nothing? I am not sure what answer you are expecting. You broke your compressor and lost your pure hydrogen sample. Simple as that.
Where does the hydrogen go to when it's breached the tank. Come on stop stalling. It's as if you're scared to answer.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:26:17 AM by SkepticMike »
Turkish joke. A prisoner goes to the jail's library to borrow a book. The librarian says: "We don't have this book, but we have its author"

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #222 on: August 08, 2016, 01:26:36 AM »
If you were paying attention I already answered this question. I claimed that once the tank is ruptured, pressure equalizes. Since the tank contained a high pressure system, that would mean the gas would escape into the surrounding atmosphere. Obviously you are too thick to comprehend this.

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #223 on: August 08, 2016, 01:29:39 AM »
If you were paying attention I already answered this question. I claimed that once the tank is ruptured, pressure equalizes. Since the tank contained a high pressure system, that would mean the gas would escape into the surrounding atmosphere. Obviously you are too thick to comprehend this.
And where about in this surrounding atmosphere would this hydrogen end up?

I'm sat laughing at the fact that you are scared to actually answer the question simply.  ;D
For all those looking in, this is what happens when the waters cannot be muddied by these people. They get irritated and start to name call.  ;D

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #224 on: August 08, 2016, 01:36:55 AM »
You started the name calling by calling me scared (for a second time now) even though this is a simple back and forth. You also asked a question that was already answered, but you didn't catch it. I called you out on it in in a rude way in order to retaliate to your rudeness.

Back on topic. The hydrogen, being lighter and less dense, makes its way to the upper parts of the atmosphere with all the rest of the hydrogen.

Sadly, due to the upper atmosphere's low pressure conditions, it will not likely achieve a solid state again until it is placed under high pressure, 14 degrees above absolute zero.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:53:26 AM by TheRealBillNye »

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #225 on: August 08, 2016, 02:05:24 AM »
You started the name calling by calling me scared (for a second time now) even though this is a simple back and forth. You also asked a question that was already answered, but you didn't catch it. I called you out on it in in a rude way in order to retaliate to your rudeness.

Back on topic. The hydrogen, being lighter and less dense, makes its way to the upper parts of the atmosphere with all the rest of the hydrogen.

Sadly, due to the upper atmosphere's low pressure conditions, it will not likely achieve a solid state again until it is placed under high pressure, 14 degrees above absolute zero.
Have a ponder on this and realise why there is a dome.


Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #226 on: August 08, 2016, 02:09:01 AM »
You started the name calling by calling me scared (for a second time now) even though this is a simple back and forth. You also asked a question that was already answered, but you didn't catch it. I called you out on it in in a rude way in order to retaliate to your rudeness.

Back on topic. The hydrogen, being lighter and less dense, makes its way to the upper parts of the atmosphere with all the rest of the hydrogen.

Sadly, due to the upper atmosphere's low pressure conditions, it will not likely achieve a solid state again until it is placed under high pressure, 14 degrees above absolute zero.
Have a ponder on this and realise why there is a dome.

I am not coming to the same conclusion you are. Care to elaborate your thoughts? How do you know there is a dome?

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #227 on: August 08, 2016, 02:15:16 AM »
You started the name calling by calling me scared (for a second time now) even though this is a simple back and forth. You also asked a question that was already answered, but you didn't catch it. I called you out on it in in a rude way in order to retaliate to your rudeness.

Back on topic. The hydrogen, being lighter and less dense, makes its way to the upper parts of the atmosphere with all the rest of the hydrogen.

Sadly, due to the upper atmosphere's low pressure conditions, it will not likely achieve a solid state again until it is placed under high pressure, 14 degrees above absolute zero.
Have a ponder on this and realise why there is a dome.

I am not coming to the same conclusion you are. Care to elaborate your thoughts? How do you know there is a dome?
Because of stacked matter. It's been explained.

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #228 on: August 08, 2016, 02:18:26 AM »
The stacked matter model does not explain why hydrogen can possibly freeze at low pressure. Hint: it cannot. You need to pressurize it at over 1.5 million times normal atmospheric conditions (160 GPa).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 02:20:43 AM by TheRealBillNye »

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #229 on: August 08, 2016, 02:33:27 AM »
The stacked matter model does not explain why hydrogen can possibly freeze at low pressure. Hint: it cannot. You need to pressurize it at over 1.5 million times normal atmospheric conditions (160 GPa).
Tell me what laboratory test managed to freeze hydrogen at over 1.5 million times atmospheric conditions?
That's one and a half million times the pressure we live under.

Or is it a guess?

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #230 on: August 08, 2016, 02:51:39 AM »
Hydrogen was first collected in a solid state in the late 1800s by Scottish chemist James Dewar. I suggest looking him up on Wikipedia, fascinating man.

This is an article about scientists who were able to form metallic hydrogen at over 2 million atmospheres.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/2260/20130604/new-solid-form-hydrogen-discovered-extreme-pressures.htm

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #231 on: August 08, 2016, 03:08:11 AM »
On that note, if you know of any laboratory studies that can prove the existence of your ice dome that would be greatly appreciated.

Or is it a guess?

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #232 on: August 08, 2016, 03:19:08 AM »
Hydrogen was first collected in a solid state in the late 1800s by Scottish chemist James Dewar. I suggest looking him up on Wikipedia, fascinating man.

This is an article about scientists who were able to form metallic hydrogen at over 2 million atmospheres.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/2260/20130604/new-solid-form-hydrogen-discovered-extreme-pressures.htm
How was it collected in a solid state?

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sceptimatic

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #233 on: August 08, 2016, 03:21:59 AM »
On that note, if you know of any laboratory studies that can prove the existence of your ice dome that would be greatly appreciated.

Or is it a guess?
Well this is the crux of the matter at hand. It's a case of who you trust with whatever theory.
The whole purpose of the argument is that one group is telling porkies or skewing the truth, Is it me or them?
In your eyes I'm just a lone nut thinking up crap but then again we have your idols (theoretical mainstream scientists) coming up with stuff that borders on the total fantasy to the deliberate tom foolery.

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rabinoz

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #234 on: August 08, 2016, 03:46:47 AM »
On that note, if you know of any laboratory studies that can prove the existence of your ice dome that would be greatly appreciated.

Or is it a guess?
Well this is the crux of the matter at hand. It's a case of who you trust with whatever theory.
The whole purpose of the argument is that one group is telling porkies or skewing the truth, Is it me or them?
In your eyes I'm just a lone nut thinking up crap but then again we have your idols (theoretical mainstream scientists) coming up with stuff that borders on the total fantasy to the deliberate tom foolery.

I would ask "if you know of any laboratory studies that can prove" any aspect of of your hypothesis that differs from accepted theory?

If not, it would certainly seem that you are "just a lone nut thinking up crap" that does not actually explain anything satisfactorily. 

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #235 on: August 08, 2016, 08:53:08 AM »
Now, why are they pushing?
Because they are stacked and in RESISTANCE to each other.
Let's look again at what you stated earlier...

what is pushing the topmost layer of air molecules down on the molecules below?
Basically, nothing.
Imagine you are the last molecule and you're laid on your bed face down. Your body density is being resisted by the mattress and then the bed frame and then the floor and then the joists. Your back and everything facing up has no force upon it so it has nothing to push against. It becomes dormant. It freezes against a true vacuum (possibly) but your front is still resting on the mattress molecule which in turn is resting on the bed molecule which is resting on the floor molecule, etc, etc, etc.
Your back

If I line up 10 small blocks, all touching, which end is under the greatest pressure if all are at rest and not pushing or being pushed one way or the other? If one end is not pushing at the next one in line, then that next one is not pushing against the one beyond it.

The pressure will equalize if nothing is pushing each individual molecule all in one direction. 

You said nothing is pushing the molecules, so why is there higher pressure at one end than the other?
Read what I said. I said nothing is pushing on the back of the molecule at the top of the stack.
Your 10 small block analogy touching would only explain dormant molecules.
If nothing is pushing on the molecule at the back, then it isn't pushing on the next molecule in line.  If nothing is pushing on the second molecule, it's not pushing on the third.

You have a bunch of molecules in a line that are touching, but none of them are being pushed toward one end. 

Where is the downward push and increased pressure on the bottom molecules coming from if the molecules themselves aren't pushing or being pushed?

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #236 on: August 08, 2016, 09:59:05 AM »
On that note, if you know of any laboratory studies that can prove the existence of your ice dome that would be greatly appreciated.

Or is it a guess?
Well this is the crux of the matter at hand. It's a case of who you trust with whatever theory.
The whole purpose of the argument is that one group is telling porkies or skewing the truth, Is it me or them?
In your eyes I'm just a lone nut thinking up crap but then again we have your idols (theoretical mainstream scientists) coming up with stuff that borders on the total fantasy to the deliberate tom foolery.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994RvMP...66..671M

This is a much more detailed account, but the terminology is a little bit more complex for a beginning chemistry student. That's why I posted the other article first, it is easier to understand. As to the question of who is duping who, I would say that the person with zero experiments proving him right should be the one under scrutiny

I would also like to point out there is no theoretical chemistry involved with the collection of solid hydrogen. This has been done for over a century now. Nobody in their right mind would question the methods unless they don't understand them.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:04:52 AM by TheRealBillNye »

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markjo

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #237 on: August 08, 2016, 10:09:12 AM »
I have stood in many lines.

I can be in front of a line and push the person behind me.
I have been in many lines where no one pushes anyone.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #238 on: August 08, 2016, 10:14:56 AM »
I have stood in many lines.

I can be in front of a line and push the person behind me.
I have been in many lines where no one pushes anyone.

Hooray for civilised society.

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Woody

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Re: iWitness - Air Pressure and Weight
« Reply #239 on: August 08, 2016, 12:22:05 PM »
Here is a question I have asked before to other people.  I notice it is a question FE's and conspiracy theorist tend to avoid answering directly.  I decided to try to get an answer again from various people.

@scepti

What would prove denpressure wrong?