Swinging weight or Hanging weight - proves the earth rotates

This thread will discuss whether a weight hanging on the end of a wire, separated  from its support structure by a swivel, has to swing back and forth, like the Foucault's pendulum, to prove the earth rotates or can it simply hang to prove the same thing. My feelings are, a swing weight is not necessary and just letting it hang will prove the same thing. I built a contraption that does just that and I did not see any indication of earth's movement and that is where the discussion began that ended up derailing another thread and why it was brought here as a new thread. I have pictures below that shows what I built.

Total hoax. Foucault pendulums will spin different directions when side by side.

Total hoax. Foucault pendulums will spin different directions when side by side.

Yes, I've seen your videos. That is the main reason I didn't want to build a structure with a swinging weight. I knew it would not go straight and it would stop swinging after a few swings. I felt if I just put a weight on the end of a rope with a bearing swivel in between the weight and the support structure, it would show the same results as a swinging weight would. That is the debate here. Whether I'm wrong or not and please offer suggestions to improve my design to make it work.

Total hoax. Foucault pendulums will spin different directions when side by side.

Uneducated videos. "If there was rotation there should be no need to start the pendulums at all."

This thread will discuss whether a weight hanging on the end of a wire, separated  from its support structure by a swivel, has to swing back and forth, like the Foucault's pendulum, to prove the earth rotates or can it simply hang to prove the same thing. My feelings are, a swing weight is not necessary and just letting it hang will prove the same thing. I built a contraption that does just that and I did not see any indication of earth's movement and that is where the discussion began that ended up derailing another thread and why it was brought here as a new thread. I have pictures below that shows what I built.

Well A for effort. I'm still not convinced the bearing you used is good enough to detect the rotation.

Quote from: iWitness on July 24, 2016, 10:30:08 AM

Total hoax. Foucault pendulums will spin different directions when side by side.

Uneducated videos. "If there was rotation there should be no need to start the pendulums at all."

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 09:43:48 AM

This thread will discuss whether a weight hanging on the end of a wire, separated  from its support structure by a swivel, has to swing back and forth, like the Foucault's pendulum, to prove the earth rotates or can it simply hang to prove the same thing. My feelings are, a swing weight is not necessary and just letting it hang will prove the same thing. I built a contraption that does just that and I did not see any indication of earth's movement and that is where the discussion began that ended up derailing another thread and why it was brought here as a new thread. I have pictures below that shows what I built.

Well A for effort. I'm still not convinced the bearing you used is good enough to detect the rotation.

I understand. I don't know what would be better. Any suggestions?

Maybe use a lazy susan. Attach the hanging weight on the top part and secure it to the ceiling with the bottom part (so that it rests on the ball bearings.)

Having weights further out would help a little, but you'll still basically need a bearing with 'zero' resistance.  If you turn your hammer slowly, will it continue to slowly spin for a prolonged period of time after letting go?  Perhaps try turning the upper part very slowly and see if the hammer turns with it, or remains stationary.  Remember it's only .0007rpm at the poles, and even slower at other latitudes.

A pendulum swinging back and forth is traveling in a straight line and has momentum.  As the room slowly rotates, there is nothing to force a change in the direction of it's swing.

Here is an animation of how it works.  Embedding isn't working for me for some reason. nevermind
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I understand. I don't know what would be better. Any suggestions?

Maybe try and test the apparatus somehow. ALL I can think of is mount it on a office chair and very slowly rotate the chair.  See if you can detect that movement.  Then maybe go slower and slower.

Maybe use a lazy susan. Attach the hanging weight on the top part and secure it to the ceiling with the bottom part (so that it rests on the ball bearings.)

I don't have a lazy susan. I would think what I'm using would be as good. I know if I was going to build a lazy susan, I'd use a bearing like this.

Having weights further out would help a little, but you'll still basically need a bearing with 'zero' resistance.  If you turn your hammer slowly, will it continue to slowly spin for a prolonged period of time after letting go?  Perhaps try turning the upper part very slowly and see if the hammer turns with it, or remains stationary.  Remember it's only .0007rpm at the poles, and even slower at other latitudes.

A pendulum swinging back and forth is traveling in a straight line and has momentum.  As the room slowly rotates, there is nothing to force a change in the direction of it's swing.

Here is an animation of how it works.  Embedding isn't working for me for some reason. nevermind
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I got confused watching the video.

Is its everyone's concern that the bearing will not isolate the hammer from the support structure and the hammer is rotating with the earth too? If so, would it help if I put paddle like devices on the side of the hammer so it would catch the atmosphere and help keep the hammer from turning?

Is its everyone's concern that the bearing will not isolate the hammer from the support structure and the hammer is rotating with the earth too? If so, would it help if I put paddle like devices on the side of the hammer so it would catch the atmosphere and help keep the hammer from turning?

No. That would make it "stick" with the atmosphere more, since the atmosphere is moving with the earth.

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 11:07:45 AM

Is its everyone's concern that the bearing will not isolate the hammer from the support structure and the hammer is rotating with the earth too? If so, would it help if I put paddle like devices on the side of the hammer so it would catch the atmosphere and help keep the hammer from turning?

No. That would make it "stick" with the atmosphere more, since the atmosphere is moving with the earth.

I guess you're right.

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

No. You are not understanding why it has to be a pendulum.

Take a small pendulem (a ball on a string) and without setting it in motion, twist it. The ball will twist with the string.

Now set the pendulem in motion and twist it. The ball will twist on the string, but the pendulem will stay swinging in the same direction.

The focault pendulems all twist, but the direction of swinging does not. That is what they measure when they go around in circles: the direction of swinging.

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current. i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current. i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No. That won't work. Read  my above post. It has to be a pendulem.

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current. i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No. That won't work. Read  my above post. It has to be a pendulem.

Because it twists doesn't mean it has to, does it? Why can't it just swing back and forth or not swing at all. If it twists, wouldn't that cause it to go around in a circle?

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current.

I never claimed it was.  Please read what I wrote and not what you wish I wrote.  The angular momentum of the swinging weight though makes those aircurrents have far less effect on a pendulum than on your current mechanism.  So AGAIN, how are you going to isolate it from air currents?

i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No, it would not.  When it stops it will have the same momentum as the base and the rest of the room.  you really don't get it, do you?

So you don't have a magic momentum cancelling machine that could make you billions then?  Too bad.  You'd be far better off using a pendulum and using the advanage gained by having angular momentum.

Because it twists doesn't mean it has to, does it? Why can't it just swing back and forth or not swing at all. If it twists, wouldn't that cause it to go around in a circle?

Your hovering globe will twist with the earth. The pendulem will also twist with the earth (unless it's on the poles) but its direction of swinging will stay the same as the earth rotates underneath it.

That is also the problem with your hanging weight. It isn't swinging. You need to have it swinging.

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current.

I never claimed it was.  Please read what I wrote and not what you wish I wrote.  The angular momentum of the swinging weight though makes those aircurrents have far less effect on a pendulum than on your current mechanism.  So AGAIN, how are you going to isolate it from air currents?

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No, it would not.  When it stops it will have the same momentum as the base and the rest of the room.  you really don't get it, do you?

So you don't have a magic momentum cancelling machine that could make you billions then?  Too bad.  You'd be far better off using a pendulum and using the advanage gained by having angular momentum.

Okay, don't get nasty. I understand what you mean. You don't think it will work and you have given your reason why it won't. I appreciate that. So it is back to a swing weight.

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:40:04 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current.

I never claimed it was.  Please read what I wrote and not what you wish I wrote.  The angular momentum of the swinging weight though makes those aircurrents have far less effect on a pendulum than on your current mechanism.  So AGAIN, how are you going to isolate it from air currents?

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No, it would not.  When it stops it will have the same momentum as the base and the rest of the room.  you really don't get it, do you?

So you don't have a magic momentum cancelling machine that could make you billions then?  Too bad.  You'd be far better off using a pendulum and using the advanage gained by having angular momentum.

Okay, don't get nasty. I understand what you mean. You don't think it will work and you have given your reason why it won't. I appreciate that. So it is back to a swing weight.

None of that was nasty.  If you thought it was then you have a very thin skin. 

If you really want to conduct this experiment I suggest a larger pendulum with a bob with more mass than a hammer.

[vid][/vid]

Notice they are using about a 6 story wire and a rather heavy bob.  This allows the pendulum to swing longer.  They also take steps to help reduce any outside force effecting the experiment when they start the pendulum's motion.

 

I support anyone saying your experiment is flawed.  Friction will cause the bearing to not allow the rotation of the Earth to turn the hammer.

The longer string is more important than the heavier bob. A hammer is probably fine in all honesty.

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

If you do get one of these, the first test would be to try is to give the suspended globe a spin. How long does it continue to spin? Does spinning it the opposite direction make a significant difference? If it eventually stops (it will), why does that happen? If it takes a long time to stop (a good fraction of a day or longer), then, when you conduct your experiment, how do you know it was truly "stopped" when you started, and you aren't just seeing the result of some residual spin imparted when you released the globe?

Instead of using a suspended mass, if you use a pendulum, some of these problems are addressed. The biggest one is that if a pendulum is swinging in a plane, that plane is fixed with respect to (wrt) inertial space, so you have a fixed reference independent of the presumed-spinning earth. On the other hand, the mass in your apparatus probably is rotating wrt inertial space, but you have no way of knowing how much it's spinning except wrt the Earth itself, so you have no reference to measure the presumed slow rotation of the earth you're testing for against. The plane of a swinging pendulum is constrained to be parallel to the vertical, but if it's allowed freedom to rotate about the vertical, it will remain as close to the original orientation as it can.

That's why there are Foucault pendulum experiments and not "Foucault suspended mass" experiments. The pendulum can provide an inertial frame of reference.

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:44:20 PM

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:40:04 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

Quote from: frenat on July 24, 2016, 01:16:20 PM

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

How would you isolate it from air currents?  Since you are starting it stationary relative to the base (and therefore rotating with the base) how are you stopping it from rotating?  In other words, it is going to start out with the momentum of the rotating earth the same as the base and your room, and your house, etc.  How are you going to cancel that momentum?  If you have some magic momentum canceling machine, why are you not selling it and making billions?

A swinging weight is not isolated from air current.

I never claimed it was.  Please read what I wrote and not what you wish I wrote.  The angular momentum of the swinging weight though makes those aircurrents have far less effect on a pendulum than on your current mechanism.  So AGAIN, how are you going to isolate it from air currents?

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:24:52 PM

i'll turn it in the opposite direction, east to west and where it stops I'll put an arrow on the base. That should cancel out the momentum of it rotating west to east.

No, it would not.  When it stops it will have the same momentum as the base and the rest of the room.  you really don't get it, do you?

So you don't have a magic momentum cancelling machine that could make you billions then?  Too bad.  You'd be far better off using a pendulum and using the advanage gained by having angular momentum.

Okay, don't get nasty. I understand what you mean. You don't think it will work and you have given your reason why it won't. I appreciate that. So it is back to a swing weight.

None of that was nasty.  If you thought it was then you have a very thin skin.

I'm 67 years old and I literally do have thin skin. It doesn't take much of a scrape for me to bleed.

can we please stop with the quote pyramid?

Quote from: Yendor on July 24, 2016, 01:02:09 PM

okay, I've come up with an idea. If I bought this thing and marked the base and globe with arrows and let it sit on my desk, shouldn't this be as good as a swinging weight? The globe is free from friction as you can get, I believe and not connected to the base in any way, shouldn't the base rotate with the rotating earth and the globe will NOT rotate with it? Let me know what you think and I will buy it if you all agree.

If you do get one of these, the first test would be to try is to give the suspended globe a spin. How long does it continue to spin? Does spinning it the opposite direction make a significant difference? If it eventually stops (it will), why does that happen? If it takes a long time to stop (a good fraction of a day or longer), then, when you conduct your experiment, how do you know it was truly "stopped" when you started, and you aren't just seeing the result of some residual spin imparted when you released the globe?

Instead of using a suspended mass, if you use a pendulum, some of these problems are addressed. The biggest one is that if a pendulum is swinging in a plane, that plane is fixed with respect to (wrt) inertial space, so you have a fixed reference independent of the presumed-spinning earth. On the other hand, the mass in your apparatus probably is rotating wrt inertial space, but you have no way of knowing how much it's spinning except wrt the Earth itself, so you have no reference to measure the presumed slow rotation of the earth you're testing for against. The plane of a swinging pendulum is constrained to be parallel to the vertical, but if it's allowed freedom to rotate about the vertical, it will remain as close to the original orientation as it can.

That's why there are Foucault pendulum experiments and not "Foucault suspended mass" experiments. The pendulum can provide an inertial frame of reference.

Okay, I want to get everyone together as to what I should do to watch the earth rotate because I really want to see it. I won't buy the globe, although it is neat.

Question, If I build a Foucault pendulum, how will I know the results will actually be the earth rotating and not the ether rotating?