Is being patriotic a good thing?

This question has been raised on some other forum. They have told me that my patriotic feelings blind me to reality (that the education system I am in is very bad, which I think it isn't, because we are very successful on the International Science Olympiads for such a small country). On the other hand, all Croatian successful people I know of are or were patriotic. Most of the Croatian poetry in my textbook is patriotic. It almost certainly isn't that most of the poetry written on Croatian language is patriotic, it's that they get published more, and that poets who write them get more money. And, on the television in Croatia, none of those people who have good jobs say anything against Croatia. If they did, they would probably loose their jobs. And all Croatian singers I know of have some well-known patriotic songs. That probably means that those who don't aren't successful. The question then raised is whether those people are actually patriotic or are just lying to be better-off. Well, before Croatia got independent, many of those people were persecuted because of their patriotic feelings, even some singers that are popular today, and, of course, many of the politicians that are popular today. And the poets who were persecuted because of their love for Croatia are now praised the most. So, I think that most of those successful people of Croatia really are patriotic, and that being patriotic helps. But what do you think?

I know nothing of Croatian politics, but it sounds a bit suspicious that only the patriotic poets and singers are successful. Are people fearful of being critical of the government? Are people persecuted for being critical? If they are, would you even know about it?

In the US patriotism is like religion, but our constitution gives us the right to be critical. It is socially frowned upon to be unpatriotic, and criticism of the military (for example) can get you accused of being unpatriotic. Support the troops! (but don't pay attention to any of the ugly stuff) We have the legal right to free speech, which includes saying bad things about the government... but there are certain segments of government that we are discouraged from criticizing. If you criticize the police you are accused of hating them, if you criticize military actions you are accused of wanting the terrorists to win, etc. Fortunately people are still willing to offer criticism!

Patriotism is good and bad. Forced patriotism (by the govt or society) is bad. If your loyalty isn't freely given, if it must be unquestioning, then it's not really patriotism.  If part of your patriotism includes keeping your country from committing atrocities in its name, and defending the rights of the people who make up the country, then I think it can be a good thing.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. -- Samuel Johnson

I think aspirational patriotism (yes I made that up) is good. Have wishes for what you hope for your country is fine. I think celebratory patriotism is slippery. I am personally not a fan of conscious in/out group thinking and patriotism is often nothing more than that when it is celebratory.

More often than not, patriotism seems to come across more as ego. "This country's the best because I was born here!" Sure, be proud of some of your country, but don't ignore the rest. It's a country, logically it's going to be better and worse than aspects of others.

More often than not, patriotism seems to come across more as ego. "This country's the best because I was born here!" Sure, be proud of some of your country, but don't ignore the rest. It's a country, logically it's going to be better and worse than aspects of others.

Nationalism is definitely the ugly side of patriotism.

Quote from: Jane on July 28, 2016, 05:12:04 AM

More often than not, patriotism seems to come across more as ego. "This country's the best because I was born here!" Sure, be proud of some of your country, but don't ignore the rest. It's a country, logically it's going to be better and worse than aspects of others.

Nationalism is definitely the ugly side of patriotism.

Nationalism isn't necessarily that bad either.  It's xenophobia that you need to watch out for.  Loving your country doesn't obligate one to hate everybody else's countries.

This is a really good article about compulsory patriotism (yeah, it's about that football player who didn't stand for the national anthem) http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the-press/vets-respect-compelled-bought-inherited/  It's too long to copy and paste the whole thing (I cut off some of the beginning and the end), it's worth reading the whole thing, though.

The next message was about Kaepernick. As was the next one. And the next one. And…

They all begin pretty much the same way: Jim, AS A VETERAN, what do you think about this? Well?

Let me answer all the messages at once …

AS A VETERAN, what do I think about Colin Kaepernick’s decision to sit during the National Anthem?

As a veteran?

Very well, as a veteran then, this is what I believe:

The very first thing I learned in the military is this: Respect is a two-way street. If you want respect, true respect, sincere respect, then you have to GIVE IT.

If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.

Respect cannot be compelled.

Respect cannot be bought.

Respect cannot be inherited.

Respect cannot be demanded at the muzzle of a gun or by beating it into somebody or by shaming them into it. Can not. You might get what you think is respect, but it’s not. It’s only the appearance of respect. It’s fear, it’s groveling, it’s not respect. Far, far too many people both in and out of the military, people who should emphatically know better, do not understand this simple fact: there is an enormous difference between fear and respect.

Respect has to be earned.

Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned.

Respect has to be earned every day, by every word, by every action.

It takes a lifetime of words and deeds to earn respect.

It takes only one careless word, one thoughtless action, to lose it.

You have to be worthy of respect. You have to live up to, or at least do your best to live up to, those high ideals — the ones America supposedly embodies, that shining city on the hill, that exceptional nation we talk about, yes, that one. To earn respect you have to be fair. You have to have courage. You must embrace reason. You have to know when to hold the line and when to compromise. You have to take responsibility and hold yourself accountable. You have to keep your word. You have to give respect, true respect, to get it back.

There are no short cuts. None.

Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don’t, then likely they weren’t much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so.

IF Kaepernick doesn’t feel his country respects him enough for him to respect it in return, well, then you can’t MAKE him respect it.

You can not make him respect it.

If you try to force a man to respect you, you’ll only make him respect you less.

With threats, by violence, by shame, you can maybe compel Kaepernick to stand up and put his hand over his heart and force him to be quiet. You might.

But that’s not respect.

It’s only the illusion of respect.

You might force this man into the illusion of respect. You might. Would you be satisfied then? Would that make you happy? Would that make you respect your nation, the one which forced a man into the illusion of respect, a nation of little clockwork patriots all pretending satisfaction and respect? Is that what you want? If THAT’s what matters to you, the illusion of respect, then you’re not talking about freedom or liberty. You’re not talking about the United States of America. Instead, you’re talking about every dictatorship from the Nazis to North Korea where people are lined up and MADE to salute with the muzzle of a gun pressed to the back of their necks.

That, that illusion of respect, is not why I wore a uniform.

American born and raised.

I remember having the message drilled into my head during school that America, well America is #1 would be understating it.  I always imagined that other countries did this as well as part of their educational system.  I was kind of surprised to learn that the level of patriotism a typical American possesses is borderline terrifying to the rest of the world. 

But you grow up and realize that in a lot of metrics, no we're not #1.  We're high up there but by a lot the metrics that would matter to an average citizen I've read Norway or some other northern European nation is closer to #1.

We still have sausage mcMuffins though.