Poll

Why do you support Donald Trump?

I don't want mexicans to come
22 (24.2%)
I want him to fight terrorism
13 (14.3%)
Free trade is bad
6 (6.6%)
He is the wild card we need
50 (54.9%)

Total Members Voted: 85

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Why do you support donald trump

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17010 on: December 04, 2019, 09:58:09 AM »
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17011 on: December 04, 2019, 11:37:28 AM »


An impeachment hearing.  Not The impeachment hearing.

3 constitutional professors lay out there case for impeachment.  1 professor lays out his case against it.

The case against is surprisingly weak so far.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17012 on: December 04, 2019, 03:28:11 PM »
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 11:37:28 AM


An impeachment hearing.  Not The impeachment hearing.

3 constitutional professors lay out there case for impeachment.  1 professor lays out his case against it.

The case against is surprisingly weak so far.

You realize nothing is going to happen right?

Also, quite possibly he will win 2020
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17013 on: December 04, 2019, 03:38:35 PM »
Quote from: Bom Tishop on December 04, 2019, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 11:37:28 AM


An impeachment hearing.  Not The impeachment hearing.

3 constitutional professors lay out there case for impeachment.  1 professor lays out his case against it.

The case against is surprisingly weak so far.

You realize nothing is going to happen right?

Also, quite possibly he will win 2020

Oh most definitely.  I mean the House will impeach but the Senate will still acquit.  No one will remember this in 6 months.  Unless the economy tanks, or possible we get into a war, Trump wins reelection.

I'm just looking at this from a legal argument standpoint.
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17014 on: December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM »
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

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Rayzor

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17015 on: December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM »
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.   

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17016 on: December 04, 2019, 11:12:01 PM »
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.

Yeah but once Trump is not removed, obstructing and bribery will not be a removable offense.
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Quote from: wise on May 26, 2023, 05:06:05 AM
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17017 on: December 05, 2019, 12:35:49 AM »
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.

Not sure why they cant hang him on this alone. There is more than enough evidence for this. Even if he is 'innocent' with this asking for a personal favour in return for aid, the fact he has tried to obstruct this investigation at every turn

If I was innocent of a crime and the police were investigating me, subpoenaed me etc and I turned around and said 'screw you I'm innocent, this is all fake!' and then proceeded to threaten and intimidate witnesses and refused to show up to court or answer any questions - I might be innocent but I'm still going to be in a world of shit.

Why are people adamant that Trump should be exempt. He holds the highest office. It should come with the highest standards.
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17018 on: December 05, 2019, 03:03:02 AM »
Quote from: Shifter on December 05, 2019, 12:35:49 AM
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.

Not sure why they cant hang him on this alone. There is more than enough evidence for this. Even if he is 'innocent' with this asking for a personal favour in return for aid, the fact he has tried to obstruct this investigation at every turn

If I was innocent of a crime and the police were investigating me, subpoenaed me etc and I turned around and said 'screw you I'm innocent, this is all fake!' and then proceeded to threaten and intimidate witnesses and refused to show up to court or answer any questions - I might be innocent but I'm still going to be in a world of shit.

Why are people adamant that Trump should be exempt. He holds the highest office. It should come with the highest standards.
Only if you're a Democrat.
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Quote from: wise on May 26, 2023, 05:06:05 AM
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mak3m

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17019 on: December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM »
Can someone explain to a Brit what today's impeachment announcement means?

Apologies but I just cant work out whether it's the end of the world or nothing. Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?

Press is either Left or Right on it hence the confusion  :o
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17020 on: December 05, 2019, 11:30:25 AM »
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Can someone explain to a Brit what today's impeachment announcement means?

Apologies but I just cant work out whether it's the end of the world or nothing. Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?

Press is either Left or Right on it hence the confusion  :o

Basically impeachment is like being charged with a crime.  The House says "Mr. President, you did something bad so we're gonna have a trial to see if you should be removed from office."
So Nancy's announcement was almost that.  It was the official declaration that the House will charge Trump with crimes.  BUT...they have to vote if they want to hold a trial for those crimes.  If they do, the trial is held in the senate with all 100 senators acting as the jury.  2/3 of the senate must vote to remove to remove Trump from office.  Otherwise the trial ends and Trump goes back to his job.
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mak3m

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17021 on: December 05, 2019, 11:45:39 AM »
So with the Senate in Republican hands he is pretty sure of not going to trial, or are Republicans likely to turn on him.

Bit weird in UK you have the party 'Whip' which effectively allows the party to force mp's to vote one way or the other.
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17022 on: December 05, 2019, 11:49:27 AM »
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:45:39 AM
So with the Senate in Republican hands he is pretty sure of not going to trial, or are Republicans likely to turn on him.

Bit weird in UK you have the party 'Whip' which effectively allows the party to force mp's to vote one way or the other.

Oh he'll go to trial in the senate but with republicans in control, they will not vote to out him so he's basically safe.  He (trump) is stressing about nothing.
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mak3m

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17023 on: December 05, 2019, 12:12:06 PM »
Just glad he is out of the UK, get nervous when I see him out and about on TV, keep expecting him to be assassinated  C:-)
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DuckDodgers

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17024 on: December 05, 2019, 12:27:25 PM »
Unless one of his henchmen turn on him if/when they are forced to testify, Trump will not be removed by the Senate. I'll be interested to see if they continue to defy subpoenas once there is a trial in the Senate. I'll be more interested to see the reaction of Congress when that happens to see if there are any cracks in the Republican wall because of it.
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17025 on: December 05, 2019, 12:31:03 PM »
They could still surprise us. Senate republicans have been oddly silent about this. With the exception of lindsay Graham who has apparently contracted rabies.
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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17026 on: December 05, 2019, 01:29:38 PM »
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?
Not quite.  He got impeached (but not removed from office) for lying about it (perjury and obstruction).
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mak3m

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17027 on: December 05, 2019, 03:03:44 PM »
Quote from: markjo on December 05, 2019, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?
Not quite.  He got impeached (but not removed from office) for lying about it (perjury and obstruction).

Being lazy, should read more about it, but head full of UK politics as we prepare for another general election.

But basically is Trumps accusation of an abuse of presidential power?

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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17028 on: December 05, 2019, 03:40:21 PM »
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
Quote from: markjo on December 05, 2019, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?
Not quite.  He got impeached (but not removed from office) for lying about it (perjury and obstruction).

Being lazy, should read more about it, but head full of UK politics as we prepare for another general election.

But basically is Trumps accusation of an abuse of presidential power?

Hasn't quite been finalized yet.  Most likely abuse of power, bribery and obstruction of congress/justice.  There's a possibility of treason but it's unlikely.
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mak3m

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17029 on: December 05, 2019, 03:52:47 PM »
Quote from: Crouton on December 05, 2019, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
Quote from: markjo on December 05, 2019, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?
Not quite.  He got impeached (but not removed from office) for lying about it (perjury and obstruction).

Being lazy, should read more about it, but head full of UK politics as we prepare for another general election.

But basically is Trumps accusation of an abuse of presidential power?

Hasn't quite been finalized yet.  Most likely abuse of power, bribery and obstruction of congress/justice.  There's a possibility of treason but it's unlikely.

Much the same as Brexit over here, good distraction tactic, stops them messing too many things up and the day to day stuff  you know like running a country...
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17030 on: December 05, 2019, 04:00:10 PM »
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 05, 2019, 03:40:21 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
Quote from: markjo on December 05, 2019, 01:29:38 PM
Quote from: mak3m on December 05, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Whole process is a bit confusing tbh, didnt Clinton get impeached getting head?
Not quite.  He got impeached (but not removed from office) for lying about it (perjury and obstruction).

Being lazy, should read more about it, but head full of UK politics as we prepare for another general election.

But basically is Trumps accusation of an abuse of presidential power?

Hasn't quite been finalized yet.  Most likely abuse of power, bribery and obstruction of congress/justice.  There's a possibility of treason but it's unlikely.

Much the same as Brexit over here, good distraction tactic, stops them messing too many things up and the day to day stuff  you know like running a country...

That's one aspect of it.  Good or bad depending on how you view the situation. 

It's brought up sometimes but a well run administration wouldn't let it get it in the way.  Maybe not this administration so much.  But congress is getting nothing done anyways regardless of impeachment. 

Our politicians are much more partisan than yours at the moment I think.  I remember a few months ago there was a vote in parliament to do a hard brexit or something.  And a good number of Boris's own party defied him on it.  That would not be the case here.
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Rayzor

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17031 on: December 05, 2019, 04:34:15 PM »
Quote from: Crouton on December 05, 2019, 12:31:03 PM
They could still surprise us. Senate republicans have been oddly silent about this. With the exception of lindsay Graham who has apparently contracted rabies.

The recent election results showed a strong swings against the Republicans,  the way it currently looks is that the Senate could be more afraid of an anti-Trump backlash wiping them out at the polls,  if that's the case then there will be behind the scenes manouvering to dump Trump and run with someone else.   

I can't see them breaking ranks one at a time, they would have to do it en-masse.   
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DuckDodgers

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17032 on: December 05, 2019, 06:56:26 PM »
The only problem with that theory is there appears to be very little fervor at the moment to bring in another blue wave this election. Maybe that will change in the next 11 months, but if the impeachment doesn't go well, it may very well hand the house back to the repubs instead, giving trump another 2 years minimum of all Republican control.

There is a lot riding on this impeachment process.
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totallackey

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17033 on: December 06, 2019, 11:33:48 AM »
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.
Good thing Trump hasn't obstructed anything...
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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17034 on: December 06, 2019, 01:19:50 PM »
Quote from: totallackey on December 06, 2019, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.
Good thing Trump hasn't obstructed anything...
I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17035 on: December 06, 2019, 01:30:06 PM »
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2019, 01:19:50 PM
Quote from: totallackey on December 06, 2019, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: JerkFace on December 04, 2019, 04:10:45 PM
Quote from: Crouton on December 04, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.
Good thing Trump hasn't obstructed anything...
I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.

Totallackey lives in an alternate universe. He's blessed with a president who is a stand up gentlemen and scholar. No wonder when he slips out of it and sees us talk shit about Trump he gets the shits. Trump is a nice guy on his world

Pity we got stuck with a self serving dementia addled fat f#%k  :(

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17036 on: December 06, 2019, 09:44:58 PM »
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2019, 01:19:50 PM

I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.

Legislative and Executive branches are co-equal.
One has no power to force the other to do anything.

The Judicial branch decides which gets their way.

It's not very complicated.
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Rayzor

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17037 on: December 06, 2019, 10:35:17 PM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 06, 2019, 09:44:58 PM
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2019, 01:19:50 PM

I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.

Legislative and Executive branches are co-equal.
One has no power to force the other to do anything.

The Judicial branch decides which gets their way.

It's not very complicated.

The executive branch cannot define the law or interpret the law.  The executive branch must follow the law.    It's not complicated.  LOL

Obstruction of a congressional impeachment investigation is in itself impeachable. 

Maybe we should also look at the laws regarding witness intimidation as well as obstruction of justice. 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:48:08 PM by JerkFace »
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17038 on: December 06, 2019, 10:57:39 PM »
Quote from: JerkFace on December 06, 2019, 10:35:17 PM

The executive branch cannot define the law or interpret the law.

That is exactly what the Executive branch is tasked to do.
Justice Department belongs to the Executive branch.
Under direct control of the President.

Prosecutorial Discretion belongs to the Executive.
Judicial determines if the executive decision it true of false.


Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .



The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17039 on: December 06, 2019, 11:09:09 PM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 06, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
Quote from: JerkFace on December 06, 2019, 10:35:17 PM

The executive branch cannot define the law or interpret the law.

That is exactly what the Executive branch is tasked to do.
Justice Department belongs to the Executive branch.
Under direct control of the President.

Prosecutorial Discretion belongs to the Executive.
Judicial determines if the executive decision it true of false.


Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .



The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

The supreme court has already ruled that a president must follow congressional subpeonas.  Thus, doing otherwise is obstruction of justice.


Also: the president sets some foreign policy but he can't change policy that was written into law. 
Example: He directed NAFTA to be renegotiated.  It was, but it has not yet been ratified by congress.  Thus, the old NAFTA is still in effect.
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