Poll

Why do you support Donald Trump?

I don't want mexicans to come
20 (26.7%)
I want him to fight terrorism
11 (14.7%)
Free trade is bad
5 (6.7%)
He is the wild card we need
39 (52%)

Total Members Voted: 70

Why do you support donald trump

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #390 on: May 07, 2017, 05:51:33 PM »
People confuse gender roles and sex. Postmodernism has made this a difficult conversation to have.

Sex has a basis in biology. Gender is the idea that your personality, how you're supposed to be, is based on your sex. This weird gender trend has people thinking if you put on some eyeliner you have changed your sex.

 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #391 on: May 07, 2017, 05:53:11 PM »
People confuse gender roles and sex. Postmodernism has made this a difficult conversation to have.

Sex has a basis in biology. Gender is the idea that your personality, how you're supposed to be, is based on your sex. This weird gender trend has people thinking if you put on some eyeliner you have changed your sex.

I agree.

@ Totes, I know this is unpopular to say however.

It's like saying that aboriginals don't have lower IQ's than europeans. They unfortunately do, We can show this with science, especially genetics, agricultural society vs nomadic society etc. Not to say that in a few generations they couldn't close the gap.

However denying basic facts doesn't help anyone. It's not because we are racist that we rarely see full blood aboriginal scientists it's because of evolution and them not having nearly as large a gene pool as europeans. Which is starting to be balanced out as we speak.

Saying that, I know a few full blood aboriginals that have a much greater although different intelligence than I could achieve, their connection to the land is unparalleled.

tl:dr.

There are genetic differences in people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/8688531/Billions-spent-on-Australias-Aborigines-yield-dismal-results.html
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #392 on: May 08, 2017, 01:05:07 AM »
Opinion doesn't change facts imo.
...
Tolerate doesn't mean we have to change science or change reality for them.

When have I ever advocated anything of the sort?

It is as simple as XX and XY for gender.

First there's chromosomal disorders, which by definition are not simply XX or XY. Then there are a host of other issues which can result in ambiguous or conflicting sex organs. We may not know the exact cause of all of these conditions, but proclaiming a simple XX/XY correlation with gender seems a bit callous. Then there are the cases of unambiguously biological males/females that identify as the opposite gender or sex, which is what I assume you are talking about specifically. As far as I know, our understanding of these conditions is a bit murkier. Some claim it is purely psychological, but a number of studies are turning up genetic correlations. For example, see these 3 studies by this group of researchers who were looking for correlations between specific genes and transsexualism:  correlation with FtM, no correlation with MtF, correlation with FtM. There is certainly a lot we don't know, but it seems callous to dismiss these people with "it's all in your head".

People confuse gender roles and sex. Postmodernism has made this a difficult conversation to have.

Sex has a basis in biology. Gender is the idea that your personality, how you're supposed to be, is based on your sex. This weird gender trend has people thinking if you put on some eyeliner you have changed your sex.

I do agree that the general message of "anyone can be whatever gender and/or sex they want" is silly and possibly even harmful. Especially if targeted at children.

[stuff about aboriginals' IQ]

tl:dr.

There are genetic differences in people.

No argument here, but this seems completely unrelated to the topic at hand. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Edit: clarity
Edit: This is definitely not an area that I am qualified to speak authoritatively in. So... grain of salt, etc.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 01:38:28 AM by TotesReptilian »

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #393 on: May 08, 2017, 01:16:07 AM »
My point is that we can't change facts to suit PC culture.

There are two genders / sexes.

I'll grant that there is a spectrum of masculinity and femininity, however there are two genders.

For example I consider myself quite masculine however I can't watch the ending of up without crying ;D.



Gets me eveytime.

We do have masculine and feminine aspects, some are more masculine or more feminine but there are two biological genders.

XX and XY. I'm not talking about transvestites or any other mutation or deformity.

I especially agree with you about the kids, they say "kids experiment with gender" as a justification. When I was 5 I used to experiment with flying and shooting lightning out of my fingertips.

Still can't do either ;D.

Edit. I don't think it's all in their head, even if it is, it doesn't make it any less real to them.

I also wouldn't discrimiate against them.

Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 01:19:15 AM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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Pezevenk

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #394 on: May 08, 2017, 01:26:46 AM »
I don't think the ability to feel emotion is a "feminine" trade... And it definitely isn't just because of chromosomes.
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #395 on: May 08, 2017, 01:33:58 AM »
My point is that we can't change facts to suit PC culture.

There are two genders / sexes.

I'll grant that there is a spectrum of masculinity and femininity, however there are two genders.
...
XX and XY. I'm not talking about transvestites or any other mutation or deformity.

Um... sure. Except for the exceptions, there are only two genders. Brilliant.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #396 on: May 08, 2017, 01:37:43 AM »
Even in the mutations there are only two genders. Some people are born with both sex organs or one and a half, it's a deformity.

Perhaps you could tell me another gender then. We have male female and ______
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #397 on: May 08, 2017, 01:57:03 AM »
Even in the mutations there are only two genders. Some people are born with both sex organs or one and a half, it's a deformity.

Perhaps you could tell me another gender then. We have male female and ______

Anatomically, intersex. Classifying it as a deformity doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Identity-wise, transgender is generally the term for those who identify as the opposite of their anatomical gender. I guess it's up to you whether you want to consider them "another gender" or not.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #398 on: May 08, 2017, 02:24:31 AM »
There's a massive physiological difference between those two examples.

Of course it exists, I never said it didn't. It does however back up my point, intersex is a mix of the two sexes. Male Female and Intersex.

I am not saying adults shouldn't be able to choose their own identity, not for a second. I am and always will be pro freedom.

However I don't like the idea of kids being told that there's 63 genders. (I googled it, I had no idea people are saying there was that many tbh)

This article is actually pretty based.

https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-how-many-sexes-genders-are-there

I don't think anyone can say honestly that 20+ "genders" is scientific.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #399 on: May 08, 2017, 05:07:56 AM »
...
However I don't like the idea of kids being told that there's 63 genders. (I googled it, I had no idea people are saying there was that many tbh)

This article is actually pretty based.

https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-how-many-sexes-genders-are-there

I don't think anyone can say honestly that 20+ "genders" is scientific.

simple question: why?
explain why we should not children tell what the state of scientific knowledge is?
when do you is it appropriate to tell children what the state of science is?

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #400 on: May 08, 2017, 05:15:44 AM »
Because it isn't scientific knowlege, if you missed the last few posts.

It isn't even close to science.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #401 on: May 08, 2017, 09:15:00 AM »
Intersex is a physiological condition, it has nothing to do with being transgender. Dysphoria is a mental disorder that can sometimes be alleviated by transition, but there is no surefire cure. The people in a position to make money off transitioning people are pushing the narrative that it is the only way, that the alternative to transition is suicide. Also, you may be interested to know lots of these younger people who are being referred to gender clinics now are on the autism spectrum.   
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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FalseProphet

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #402 on: May 08, 2017, 10:04:27 AM »
We have 3 genders here, male, female and everything that seems somehow in between (Islam and Christianity of course destroy this kind of thinking). The people in South Sulawesi are more precise, they distinguish 5 genders.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #403 on: May 08, 2017, 01:22:13 PM »
I wonder how many of those extra genders are for females. It's usually gay males who get the extra gender in cultures that have more than two.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #404 on: May 08, 2017, 01:33:36 PM »
There's a massive physiological difference between those two examples.

Brilliant deduction, Sherlock. I gave you two completely different answers because I wasn't sure what you specifically meant by "gender". I gave you an anatomical answer and an identity answer.

Quote
Of course it exists, I never said it didn't. It does however back up my point, intersex is a mix of the two sexes. Male Female and Intersex.

Ok. My point was that the existence of intersex peoples makes it more complicated than your original "simple as XX and XY for gender" statement would suggest.

Quote
I am not saying adults shouldn't be able to choose their own identity, not for a second. I am and always will be pro freedom.

However I don't like the idea of kids being told that there's 63 genders. (I googled it, I had no idea people are saying there was that many tbh)

I assume you are talking about this site: https://apath.org/63-genders ?

A) There is a big disclaimer on the top of the page that it is outdated and wrong.
B) It's just some random peson's ramblings on a variety of topics.
C) It's at least partially a joke.
D) They are considering each combination of biological sex, identity, and behavior as a separate gender.
E) I don't see anyone advocating teaching this specifically to kids.

Quote
This article is actually pretty based.

https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-how-many-sexes-genders-are-there

I generally agree with that article. Seems spot on.

Quote
I don't think anyone can say honestly that 20+ "genders" is scientific.

I don't think you understand what those people are talking about. When they say there are some [huge] number of genders, they are generally trying to categorize and label all the different possible combinations of biological sex, behiavor, and/or self identification. You can make those categories as specific or as broad as you want. Whether you want to classify all those categories as separate genders or not is really just a matter of terminology.

Yes, for most of us it really is as simple as male/female. But for those intersex persons, or those with gender dysphoria, it really isn't that simple.

Intersex is a physiological condition, it has nothing to do with being transgender.

I know. I answered it in two different ways because I wasn't sure what disputeone meant by "gender". He seemed to be using it more in the biological sense.

Quote
Dysphoria is a mental disorder that can sometimes be alleviated by transition, but there is no surefire cure. The people in a position to make money off transitioning people are pushing the narrative that it is the only way, that the alternative to transition is suicide. Also, you may be interested to know lots of these younger people who are being referred to gender clinics now are on the autism spectrum.   

That's pretty scummy if it is true. Although, I suspect some of that correlation with autism has to do with the fact that many of those chromosomal disorders can also result in autism.

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #405 on: May 08, 2017, 01:53:07 PM »
General thoughts on whether it is appropriate to tell people that there are a wide variety of genders to choose from:

1. Conservatives generally seem to be concerned with how this will negatively affect the 99% of people who fall into the traditional male/female category.
2. Liberals generally seem to be concerned with reaching out to the 1% who are vulnerable.

These opposing perspectives of concern-for-the-nomal-majority vs concern-for-the-vulnerable-minority is a pattern for many conservative vs liberal debate topics.

When each side argues against the other, they tend to point to the most extremist representatives of the other side to rile up their supporters. That Bill Nye video just became a prime target of this. Surely there can be a reasonable balance between the two.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 01:54:57 PM by TotesReptilian »

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #406 on: May 08, 2017, 02:08:15 PM »
If a man thinks he is a bunny, he has a mental disorder.
If a woman thinks she is jesus, she has a mental disorder.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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The Real Celine Dion

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #407 on: May 08, 2017, 02:11:42 PM »
I agree with Bullwinkle
You just got Weskered, bitches!

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Twerp

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #408 on: May 08, 2017, 02:20:22 PM »
I also.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #409 on: May 08, 2017, 02:22:50 PM »
If a man thinks he is a bunny, he has a mental disorder.
If a woman thinks she is jesus, she has a mental disorder.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.
Doesn't a mental disorder dictate there is something going on in the brain? Besides, dysphoria is labeled as a mental disorder.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #410 on: May 08, 2017, 02:47:14 PM »
If a man thinks he is a bunny, he has a mental disorder.
If a woman thinks she is jesus, she has a mental disorder.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.
Doesn't a mental disorder dictate there is something going on in the brain? Besides, dysphoria is labeled as a mental disorder.

Yes, it does, also, it is.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #411 on: May 08, 2017, 03:37:45 PM »

Intersex is a physiological condition, it has nothing to do with being transgender.

I know. I answered it in two different ways because I wasn't sure what disputeone meant by "gender". He seemed to be using it more in the biological sense.

Quote
Dysphoria is a mental disorder that can sometimes be alleviated by transition, but there is no surefire cure. The people in a position to make money off transitioning people are pushing the narrative that it is the only way, that the alternative to transition is suicide. Also, you may be interested to know lots of these younger people who are being referred to gender clinics now are on the autism spectrum.   

That's pretty scummy if it is true. Although, I suspect some of that correlation with autism has to do with the fact that many of those chromosomal disorders can also result in autism.

Transgender is not a chromosomal disorder. Notice that some of the most famous transwomen are the father of children. In most cases an intersex condition means the person is sterile. While there are some cases of an intersex person identifying as trans, they are not one and the same.  Intersex FAQ http://www.isna.org/faq/printable   Article on autism and transgender children http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/12/children-believe-transgender-could-have-autism-says-controversial/
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #412 on: May 08, 2017, 05:47:42 PM »
If a man thinks he is a bunny, he has a mental disorder.
If a woman thinks she is jesus, she has a mental disorder.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.
Doesn't a mental disorder dictate there is something going on in the brain? Besides, dysphoria is labeled as a mental disorder.


That is exactly what I said. 

I don't care how people choose to live their life.
Until they demand that I adapt to their vision of reality.

Fancy panties or thick leather. I don't care.

You should see the look on some faces when I tell them I haul fish out of the sea,
chop them into parts and eat them.

RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #413 on: May 08, 2017, 06:38:50 PM »

Intersex is a physiological condition, it has nothing to do with being transgender.

I know. I answered it in two different ways because I wasn't sure what disputeone meant by "gender". He seemed to be using it more in the biological sense.

Quote
Dysphoria is a mental disorder that can sometimes be alleviated by transition, but there is no surefire cure. The people in a position to make money off transitioning people are pushing the narrative that it is the only way, that the alternative to transition is suicide. Also, you may be interested to know lots of these younger people who are being referred to gender clinics now are on the autism spectrum.   

That's pretty scummy if it is true. Although, I suspect some of that correlation with autism has to do with the fact that many of those chromosomal disorders can also result in autism.

Transgender is not a chromosomal disorder. Notice that some of the most famous transwomen are the father of children. In most cases an intersex condition means the person is sterile. While there are some cases of an intersex person identifying as trans, they are not one and the same.  Intersex FAQ http://www.isna.org/faq/printable   Article on autism and transgender children http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/12/children-believe-transgender-could-have-autism-says-controversial/

I know there is a difference. My point is that there is a large overlap between intersex and transgender people. There is also a large overlap between intersex and autism. Hence, it is not surprising that there is also an overlap between autism and transgender. I don't know the exact numbers.

I do understand your point. I certainly don't doubt that autistic individuals are being misdiagnosed as transgender. Psychologists tend to be... how do I put this nicely... somewhat less than rigorous in their methodology quacks.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.

My original point was that it is more complicated than disputeone's original statement of "simple as XX and XY for gender", for a small percentage of the population at least. How we treat/indulge them as a society is a whole 'nother can of worms. I won't pretend to have any good answers for that.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #414 on: May 08, 2017, 06:47:30 PM »
Didn't you endorse calling MI people crazy and worthless?

Wait, you did.

What's changed Totes? :)

It's the TV, isn't it.

"Changed the channel and we changed our minds."
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 06:49:14 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #415 on: May 08, 2017, 06:54:55 PM »

My original point was that it is more complicated than disputeone's original statement of "simple as XX and XY for gender", for a small percentage of the population at least. How we treat/indulge them as a society is a whole 'nother can of worms. I won't pretend to have any good answers for that.



I'm on the Asperger scale. You know how I deal with that?

I don't get in anyone's face and yell,
"I'M ASPERGER, (the worst name for a disorder ever,)
WORSHIP ME FOR MY ODDITY!!!"

Only qweers and ass holes feel the need to be worshiped for their malfunction.

I don't give a flying fuck what people do on their own time.

RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #416 on: May 08, 2017, 06:55:13 PM »
Didn't you endorse calling MI people crazy and worthless?

Wait, you did.

What's changed Totes? :)

It's the TV, isn't it.

"Changed the channel and we changed our minds."

1. Who is "MI people"?
2. I defended the word "crazy" as a word that doesn't need to be banned. It has its uses. I'm not sure if that constitutes "endorsing" or not...
3. What on earth does that have to do with this conversation?

Edit: And I certainly didn't endorse calling anyone worthless. Please don't veer off into making up random crap.
Edit #2: I don't really feel like being drawn back into the poo slinging competition right now.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 07:10:18 PM by TotesReptilian »

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #417 on: May 08, 2017, 06:56:42 PM »

My original point was that it is more complicated than disputeone's original statement of "simple as XX and XY for gender", for a small percentage of the population at least. How we treat/indulge them as a society is a whole 'nother can of worms. I won't pretend to have any good answers for that.

I'm on the Asperger scale. You know how I deal with that?

I don't get in anyone's face and yell,
"I'M ASPERGER, (the worst name for a disorder ever,)
WORSHIP ME FOR MY ODDITY!!!"

Only qweers and ass holes feel the need to be worshiped for their malfunction.

I don't give a flying fuck what people do on their own time.

Um... good for you? I also don't think queers and assholes deserve to be worshiped.

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disputeone

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #418 on: May 08, 2017, 06:58:28 PM »
Mentally I'll people. Shows how much you know.

It was total endorsement, it's fine. You told everyone it's alright to call MI people "crazy."

The fact that dysphoria can be described as a mental illness.

However the TV hasn't told us what to think about it yet.

Edit. As for your "worthless"comment.

Wtf do you think this means mate?

Quote
in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behaviour, or social interaction;
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 07:04:16 PM by disputeone »
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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boydster

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #419 on: May 08, 2017, 07:07:53 PM »
If a man thinks he is a bunny, he has a mental disorder.
If a woman thinks she is jesus, she has a mental disorder.

If someone believes they are a member of the opposite sex, there is something going on in their brain.

There is no excuse to chastise them for their disorder.
But, society has no obligation to indulge their fantasy.

I know I'm late to the party here and admittedly have a lot of catching up to do before I'm up to speed with everyone.

But I have to say I think there is something to this thing that you shared, Bullwinkle. All of it. There's a big difference between someone saying they feel a certain way and saying they are actually, in fact, something that is demonstrably false. Example - someone whose sperm fertilized an egg but expresses them self in a way considered "feminine" and stating they feel like a woman makes perfect sense to me. But that same person stating that they are actually a woman and everyone must now refer to him/her/whatever with the proper pronoun or be declared rude, inconsiderate, or bigoted does not make sense to me. Now let me be the first to say, that is an idealized example in terms of establishing clearly defined boundaries, but it's made to illustrate the point. Are there other examples that might be tougher to place in clear categories? Absolutely. But just because there are examples that might be difficult to categorize shouldn't mean that the categories just be tossed out the window.

That's not to say I deny that there can be a spectrum of sexuality or even gender. Clearly there is. But for someone to say that they feel a certain way and so everyone else around them must conform to that internal feeling while ignoring all evidence to the contrary seems wrong. Where do we draw the line?
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