Poll

Why do you support Donald Trump?

I don't want mexicans to come
21 (27.3%)
I want him to fight terrorism
11 (14.3%)
Free trade is bad
5 (6.5%)
He is the wild card we need
40 (51.9%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Why do you support donald trump

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17040 on: December 06, 2019, 11:25:00 PM »

Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .

The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

In general that is true, with the proviso that he is acting in the interests of the United States,  in this instance he acted in his own personal interest, to the detriment of the United States,

The remedy for this as outlined in the constitution is impeachment.   That power has nothing to do with the judiciary,  the power to impeach belongs to congress alone.

Now that you've caught up with where we are currently at,  you might start to realise this President is a lying con artist,  not worthy of your defence.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17041 on: December 06, 2019, 11:35:01 PM »

Example: He directed NAFTA to be renegotiated.  It was, but it has not yet been ratified by congress.  Thus, the old NAFTA is still in effect.

There is no Supreme Court ruling on whether the President has the power to break a treaty without the approval of Congress.


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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17042 on: December 06, 2019, 11:39:19 PM »

Example: He directed NAFTA to be renegotiated.  It was, but it has not yet been ratified by congress.  Thus, the old NAFTA is still in effect.

There is no Supreme Court ruling on whether the President has the power to break a treaty without the approval of Congress.
No treaty has been broken.  Its been circumvented, which is different.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17043 on: December 06, 2019, 11:47:48 PM »

Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .

The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

In general that is true, with the proviso that he is acting in the interests of the United States,  in this instance he acted in his own personal interest, to the detriment of the United States,

The remedy for this as outlined in the constitution is impeachment.   That power has nothing to do with the judiciary,  the power to impeach belongs to congress alone.

Now that you've caught up with where we are currently at,  you might start to realise this President is a lying con artist,  not worthy of your defence.


Not in general, in actuality.
The President decides what is in the best interest of the USofA.

The States have given the President that authority.
 
The President is selected by the States.
The States . . . not the people.


You really need to read our constitution.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17044 on: December 06, 2019, 11:51:20 PM »

Example: He directed NAFTA to be renegotiated.  It was, but it has not yet been ratified by congress.  Thus, the old NAFTA is still in effect.

There is no Supreme Court ruling on whether the President has the power to break a treaty without the approval of Congress.
No treaty has been broken.  Its been circumvented, which is different.

Explain . . .

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17045 on: December 07, 2019, 12:05:27 AM »

Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .

The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

In general that is true, with the proviso that he is acting in the interests of the United States,  in this instance he acted in his own personal interest, to the detriment of the United States,

The remedy for this as outlined in the constitution is impeachment.   That power has nothing to do with the judiciary,  the power to impeach belongs to congress alone.

Now that you've caught up with where we are currently at,  you might start to realise this President is a lying con artist,  not worthy of your defence.


Not in general, in actuality.
The President decides what is in the best interest of the USofA.

The States have given the President that authority.
 
The President is selected by the States.
The States . . . not the people.


You really need to read our constitution.

The power to impeach supercedes and limits the authority of the president.   That power to impeach resides with congress.   
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17046 on: December 07, 2019, 12:21:45 AM »

Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .

The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

In general that is true, with the proviso that he is acting in the interests of the United States,  in this instance he acted in his own personal interest, to the detriment of the United States,

The remedy for this as outlined in the constitution is impeachment.   That power has nothing to do with the judiciary,  the power to impeach belongs to congress alone.

Now that you've caught up with where we are currently at,  you might start to realise this President is a lying con artist,  not worthy of your defence.


Not in general, in actuality.
The President decides what is in the best interest of the USofA.

The States have given the President that authority.
 
The President is selected by the States.
The States . . . not the people.


You really need to read our constitution.

The power to impeach supercedes and limits the authority of the president.   That power to impeach resides with congress.


Impeach is an indictment by the House.
The Senate is the actual trial.

Funny, watch, Democrats are going to refuse subpoenas.


How do you feel about that?

 

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17047 on: December 07, 2019, 12:33:48 AM »

Impeach is an indictment by the House.
The Senate is the actual trial.

Funny, watch, Democrats are going to refuse subpoenas.

How do you feel about that?

You can't refuse a congressional subpoena.   Well, you could, but you go to jail.   That's where Mulvaney, Barr and McGahn should be.   ( and probably will be ultimately )

However you can't be compelled to testify,  you can always plead the fifth.   

The question that the GOP senators have to answer is are they prepared to commit electoral suicide for Trump.   The answer will be interesting.
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17048 on: December 07, 2019, 12:47:26 AM »

You can't refuse a congressional subpoena.

Yes you can.
WTF do they do about it?

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17049 on: December 07, 2019, 01:27:11 AM »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17050 on: December 07, 2019, 01:47:58 AM »
I was going to post something about "Never Trumpers"  but evidently Matt Drudge has flipped sides.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-fans-so-mad-at-matt-drudge-theyre-trying-to-make-a-conservative-alternative-to-his-site

For those who don't know their internet history,  Drudge Report became famous during the Clinton Impeachment when he revealed the Monica Lewinsky  affair.

Seems we have come full circle.


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17051 on: December 07, 2019, 02:04:31 AM »
For the record, I was on Bill's side.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17052 on: December 07, 2019, 02:23:50 AM »

Example: He directed NAFTA to be renegotiated.  It was, but it has not yet been ratified by congress.  Thus, the old NAFTA is still in effect.

There is no Supreme Court ruling on whether the President has the power to break a treaty without the approval of Congress.
No treaty has been broken.  Its been circumvented, which is different.

Explain . . .

He asked a foreign government, to which we have a treaty of mutual judiciary assistance, to conduct an investigation without following the procedures found in the treaty.  Hence, circumventing it.  Breaking it would be if he refused to provide assistance despite following procedure.




Also, this gripe that the President is not following foreign policy . . .

The President sets Foreign Policy.
It is impossible for a President to circumvent foreign policy.

In general that is true, with the proviso that he is acting in the interests of the United States,  in this instance he acted in his own personal interest, to the detriment of the United States,

The remedy for this as outlined in the constitution is impeachment.   That power has nothing to do with the judiciary,  the power to impeach belongs to congress alone.

Now that you've caught up with where we are currently at,  you might start to realise this President is a lying con artist,  not worthy of your defence.


Not in general, in actuality.
The President decides what is in the best interest of the USofA.

The States have given the President that authority.
 
The President is selected by the States.
The States . . . not the people.


You really need to read our constitution.

The power to impeach supercedes and limits the authority of the president.   That power to impeach resides with congress.


Impeach is an indictment by the House.
The Senate is the actual trial.

Funny, watch, Democrats are going to refuse subpoenas.


How do you feel about that?

 

How many subpoenas did Clinton and his people refuse to follow?  Let me look that up...
1/2.  Maybe?  Can't find how it ended.

In 1999 the house subpoenaed all documents relating to the pardoning of 16 puerto ricans linked to a terrorist agency from the 70s and 80s.  The house asked for all related documents but clinton claimed executive priviledge on many of them.  He released alot but not everything. 


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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17053 on: December 07, 2019, 02:40:31 AM »

He asked a foreign government, to which we have a treaty of mutual judiciary assistance, to conduct an investigation without following the procedures found in the treaty.


You should have volunteered to go before the inquisition
and give them your firsthand testimony of what you know.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17054 on: December 07, 2019, 02:54:38 AM »

He asked a foreign government, to which we have a treaty of mutual judiciary assistance, to conduct an investigation without following the procedures found in the treaty.


You should have volunteered to go before the inquisition
and give them your firsthand testimony of what you know.
And yet, you asked. 

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17055 on: December 07, 2019, 03:40:49 AM »

He asked a foreign government, to which we have a treaty of mutual judiciary assistance, to conduct an investigation without following the procedures found in the treaty.


You should have volunteered to go before the inquisition
and give them your firsthand testimony of what you know.
And yet, you asked.

Bullwinkle doesn't read too good,  he's a Fox News addict.    Otherwise he would know the truth of which you speak.
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17056 on: December 07, 2019, 03:46:15 AM »

Bullwinkle doesn't read too good,

. . . you mean 'very well'.

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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17057 on: December 07, 2019, 11:06:38 AM »

The executive branch cannot define the law or interpret the law.

That is exactly what the Executive branch is tasked to do.
Incorrect.  The Legislative branch (Congress) defines (writes) the laws.  The Judicial branch interprets the law.  The Executive branch enforces the law.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17058 on: December 07, 2019, 11:47:51 AM »

The Executive branch enforces the law.

As it chooses and at it's own discretion.

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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17059 on: December 07, 2019, 12:15:46 PM »

The Executive branch enforces the law.

As it chooses and at it's own discretion.
You can't enforce the law by breaking the law.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17060 on: December 07, 2019, 12:35:45 PM »
Ummm, OK.

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17061 on: December 07, 2019, 04:46:22 PM »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17062 on: December 08, 2019, 03:11:45 PM »
For example.

Side A argues that Trump has obstructed congress by refusing every subpoena and blocking every witness.

Side B counters by saying that these matters are going through the courts so it doesn't count as obstruction.  An interesting argument. 

Side A counters that argument by saying that the act of obstruction and the litigation of it are two separate matters.

The act of obstructing an impeachent enquiry is in itself an impeachable offense.     Its ironic that the cover up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime itself.
Good thing Trump hasn't obstructed anything...
I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.
You would think that, but it isn't.

Especially when the subpoenas are asking for things they already have.

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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17063 on: December 08, 2019, 03:25:33 PM »
I would think that ordering your staff to ignore congressional subpoenas would count as obstruction.
You would think that, but it isn't.
Then how would you define "obstruction"?

Especially when the subpoenas are asking for things they already have.
Irrelevant. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17064 on: December 10, 2019, 12:40:44 AM »

Irrelevant.

Congress does not have power over the Executive.
Judicial decides the validity of a subpoena.

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JerkFace

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17065 on: December 10, 2019, 02:10:08 AM »

Irrelevant.

Congress does not have power over the Executive.
Judicial decides the validity of a subpoena.

Congress has the responsibility to oversee the Executive,  it's called congressional oversight.   The congressional committees have the power to subpoena whatever it deems appropriate for it's oversight role.

Executive privilege doesn't supercede congressional oversight.   

In any event, if it came to a showdown,  congress can simply shut off funding for the executive,  they write the cheques,  that trumps executive power.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 02:11:48 AM by JerkFace »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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markjo

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Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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markjo

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17067 on: December 10, 2019, 06:46:59 AM »
It's official:
The Democratic-controlled US House Judiciary Committee has unveiled charges against President Donald Trump, a key move in impeaching him.

The first article revealed by committee chief Jerry Nadler accuses Mr Trump of abuse of power and the second accuses him of obstructing Congress.

What's the use of having power if you can't abuse it once in a while? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17068 on: December 10, 2019, 08:39:15 AM »
I'm sort of surprised its only 2 but those two do cover alot.

Of course, McConnel has already said his party won't vote to remove even before the articles were announced.  So we'll have the only jury who had more than half its members already know their vote before the trial was even announced. 

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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support donald trump
« Reply #17069 on: December 10, 2019, 09:08:24 AM »
I'm sort of surprised its only 2 but those two do cover alot.

Of course, McConnel has already said his party won't vote to remove even before the articles were announced.  So we'll have the only jury who had more than half its members already know their vote before the trial was even announced.

Tough call.  Technically you'd want to throw in everything he's done that's impeachable.  The entire Mueller report.  The evidence of violating the emoluments clause.

It does sort of make sense to streamline it though if you're looking at it like a debate performed in front of a bunch of morons.  There's a sleazy debate technique I've seen on this very forum used many times to great effect.  If an opponent lists a bunch of arguments then take the weakest one and shoot that down and declare victory while ignoring the others.  It really shouldn't work because it's done nothing to address the strongest points but I see it work all the time.
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