Victimless Crimes

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Victimless Crimes
« on: December 07, 2006, 09:37:48 AM »
There are a number of crimes that can be committed without anyone being hurt.
A couple examples of these being: Stealing Wireless internet from a neighbour (assuming they dont need the bandwidth)
Illegally downloading songs off the internet (assuming you wouldnt have bought them)
WHat's everyone's opinion on these types of crimes?
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about

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rofl

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 09:47:41 AM »
My bunny alowes them so for me its not a crime.
fft who needs evidence when you can just say it's a conspiracy.
/Sigh
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skeptical scientist

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Re: Victimless Crimes
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006, 09:58:45 AM »
I would not agree that these crimes are truly victimless. In the stealing wireless internet example, you may not be consuming bandwidth that your neighbor needs, but you are consuming bandwidth that everyone else on the same local ISP is using, and slowing down the internet for all of those people. You are also effectively driving up the price of the internet for everyone who does pay by not paying.

As for downloading songs you were not going to buy anyways, it's still not victimless, as it's nearly impossible to download songs without helping redistribute them, and so you are helping other people to get music illegally, and those people might have been more likely to use itunes or buy a CD if there wasn't a large supply of easy to access free music. Also, you might not have purchased that particular song, but I doubt that you don't reduce your expenditure on music by getting some music illegally.

If you want to talk about victimless crimes in general, then I don't have any problem with them, assuming the crime is truly victimless. The best example of a victimless crime I can think of off of the top of my head would be smoking pot in moderation. If it doesn't have a negative effect on your employer, friends, or family, then it's just a harmless hobby. Other examples include violating unjust laws, such as sit-ins during segregation, because nobody is victimized by the breaking of an unjust law. In fact, I think that all victimless crimes could be described in this manner, because if a crime is truly victimless, there shouldn't be a law against it.
-David
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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 10:41:44 AM »
"If you want to talk about victimless crimes in general, then I don't have any problem with them, assuming the crime is truly victimless. The best example of a victimless crime I can think of off of the top of my head would be smoking pot in moderation. If it doesn't have a negative effect on your employer, friends, or family, then it's just a harmless hobby. Other examples include violating unjust laws, such as sit-ins during segregation, because nobody is victimized by the breaking of an unjust law. In fact, I think that all victimless crimes could be described in this manner, because if a crime is truly victimless, there shouldn't be a law against it."

Until it is legal in all countries, it isn't so victimless. you are enabling dealers and growers to expand profit thereofre moving more pot. plus some geniuses lace (PCP) a very mellow drug and turning into something much worse. If no one laced said pot then it might be harmless. and i know the argument that it'll be even more harmless if legal... oh well the law is the law. if it's illegal you take you chances and you spark up.

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2006, 10:51:46 AM »
Quote from: "jbuck"
Until it is legal in all countries, it isn't so victimless. you are enabling dealers and growers to expand profit thereofre moving more pot. plus some geniuses lace (PCP) a very mellow drug and turning into something much worse. If no one laced said pot then it might be harmless. and i know the argument that it'll be even more harmless if legal... oh well the law is the law. if it's illegal you take you chances and you spark up.

I'll agree that it depends on how you obtain it, but assuming it was obtained in a victimless manner (for example, you might have grown it yourself from seeds obtained where it's legal, thus avoiding any lacing with other drugs and also any potential victims from smuggling operations) I still say that pot-smoking in moderation is a victimless crime. As for "the law is the law", that is in fact true (surprise, surprise) and you are risking legal penalties from violating it, but that doesn't make it any more unethical than staying parked for 45 minutes after only putting half an hour on the meter.
-David
E pur si muove!

Re: Victimless Crimes
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 11:36:16 AM »
Quote from: "Oliwoli"
There are a number of crimes that can be committed without anyone being hurt.
A couple examples of these being: Stealing Wireless internet from a neighbour (assuming they dont need the bandwidth)
Illegally downloading songs off the internet (assuming you wouldnt have bought them)
WHat's everyone's opinion on these types of crimes?


How is stealing wireless internet from a neighbor illegal?

It's a HUB.  They have every right to put a password on their network.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

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skeptical scientist

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Re: Victimless Crimes
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 12:43:40 PM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
How is stealing wireless internet from a neighbor illegal?

IANAL, but how would this be any different from stealing cable television, which I'm pretty sure is a crime?

Quote
It's a HUB.  They have every right to put a password on their network.

Just because I leave my house unlocked doesn't mean its not a crime to enter uninvited.
-David
E pur si muove!

Victimless Crimes
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 01:35:37 PM »
You're still stupid to leave it unsecured, same with your house. You leave it unlocked it deserves to be intruded into.

Re: Victimless Crimes
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 03:04:32 PM »
Quote from: "skeptical scientist"

As for downloading songs you were not going to buy anyways, it's still not victimless, as it's nearly impossible to download songs without helping redistribute them, and so you are helping other people to get music illegally, and those people might have been more likely to use itunes or buy a CD if there wasn't a large supply of easy to access free music. Also, you might not have purchased that particular song, but I doubt that you don't reduce your expenditure on music by getting some music illegally.


Its actually quite easy to steal songs without redistributing them, there are many sites that arnt p2p, where you can simply download songs you want, without having to upload anything.

Also, if i steal a song off the internet, and then find out that i like the artist and BUY more songs. Is that justifyable, considering i wouldnt have bought the song if i hadnt had a "free taster"
ny Conspiricy without a secret society more than 1000 years old isn't worth thinking about

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2006, 04:04:22 PM »
Quote from: "Ashantai"
You're still stupid to leave it unsecured, same with your house. You leave it unlocked it deserves to be intruded into.

The question was not whether it was stupid or not. The question was whether breaking into it was legal. I fully agree that it's stupid, just like leaving your house unlocked. It still doesn't make it legal to invade it.

Quote from: "Oliwoli"
Also, if i steal a song off the internet, and then find out that i like the artist and BUY more songs. Is that justifyable, considering i wouldnt have bought the song if i hadnt had a "free taster"

That doesn't make it more justifiable, although it is a good argument for why there should be a limited amount of songs available for free download or free online listening.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Ubuntu

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 04:18:50 PM »

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Nomad

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 04:34:21 PM »
Quote from: "Ashantai"
You're still stupid to leave it unsecured, same with your house. You leave it unlocked it deserves to be intruded into.


No, it doesn't deserve to be intruded into.  It shouldn't even be a problem in the first place.  I should leave my stuff unlocked, but leave spike pits and bear traps all over the place, then we'll see who is stupid.
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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 04:54:16 PM »
Good idea. If someone is stupid enough to walk in and gets trapped, they deserve it! :P

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beast

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 04:56:37 PM »
Of course that would be illegal and you'd go to prison.

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Erasmus

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 06:09:15 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Of course that would be illegal and you'd go to prison.


Which, in turn, is stupid.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Nomad

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2006, 06:46:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ashantai"
Good idea. If someone is stupid enough to walk in and gets trapped, they deserve it! :P


You and beast are missing my point.  Beast of all people should be able to get sarcasm.  ;P

My point is, we shouldn't have to worry about leaving our houses unlocked, or cars.  I hate being in a race where we can't trust each other.  :(
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Rick_James

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Victimless Crimes
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2006, 09:09:07 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
Quote from: "Ashantai"
You're still stupid to leave it unsecured, same with your house. You leave it unlocked it deserves to be intruded into.


No, it doesn't deserve to be intruded into.  It shouldn't even be a problem in the first place.  I should leave my stuff unlocked, but leave spike pits and bear traps all over the place, then we'll see who is stupid.



Haven't you heard that old internet gaff about the burgular who fell through a sky-light trying to break in, and successfully sued the owners?