The Bible and flat earth.

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Pezevenk

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2016, 03:29:54 PM »
the Vatican has single handedly repressed human progression, destroyed scientific research

Historically there were a number of conflicts between church and science, but grnerally the catholic church was an important patron of science.

accepted, but there was a mass destruction of knowledge a long time ago, imagine where we'd be now if it wasn't for that.......

the mass control with the bible is dangerous, taking it literally is the main problem

There was not really a "mass destruction of knowledge". Maybe you think about the destruction of the library of Alexandria, but that was not a significant event. It burned down several times in the course of history. There were plenties of libraries and numerous copies of the books stored there. Typically papyrus scrolls had a rather low life span, so to pass on knowledge they had to be copied continuously. This ceased to be done due to the decline of the Roman Empire. The monks were the only ones who continued copying texts, so we owe them a lot. The scientific knowledge of the Greeks never was forgotten throughout the Middle Ages, that's just a myth. Most churchfathers appreciated Greek "narural philosophy". They did oppress parts of pagan literature though, that didn't fit in their moral or religious framework, like most of Ancient Greek belles lettres. So the loss induced by the church was a cultural rather than a scientific one.

Sure, the ancient Greek knowledge was not forgotten, but there's a problem. The monks considered it to be almost a dogma, and there seldom was any expansion of the knowledge or any correction and modification.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2016, 05:14:13 AM »
Satan has an ego problem like no one else.


I can think of someone else.   ;)

If you're talking about me I'm failing to see how.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2016, 05:36:37 AM »
This thread has been off topic for a while. I'll post something regarding the Bible and flat earth.

There was an argument earlier in this thread that said the Bible teaches a flat earth when Satan took Jesus on top of the mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth. The argument is that this is not possible on a spherical earth therefore the earth is flat.

If our earth is flat and there was a mountain high enough from which you could see the entire earth, you should be able to see this mountain, or at least it's peak, from the entire earth as well.  I live in Canada, I have never seen this mountain peak. I was born in Germany and I never saw this mountain peak. I was even in Israel in 2014 and I didn't see this mountain. Even on airplanes that fly higher than any mountain on earth you can't see the entire earth.

So my argument is that regardless of whether this earth is round or flat, when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth it had to be in a supernatural way.

Why did he take him onto a high mountain? I don't know but that doesn't prove that the earth is flat.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2016, 05:48:31 AM »
To give an alternative to Luke's explanation of "the circle of the earth" verse in Isaiah.

I think the circle of the earth could also mean earths orbit around the sun. It is nearly a perfect circle according to what we are taught so this would fit. The hebrew word used here for circle is used (if I remember correctly) in two other verses in the Bible. In one of those verses it is translated as "circuit". If we apply this translation to our verse then it does sound more like it's talking about earth's orbit than earth's shape.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2016, 07:19:40 AM »
To give an alternative to Luke's explanation of "the circle of the earth" verse in Isaiah.

I think the circle of the earth could also mean earths orbit around the sun. It is nearly a perfect circle according to what we are taught so this would fit. The hebrew word used here for circle is used (if I remember correctly) in two other verses in the Bible. In one of those verses it is translated as "circuit". If we apply this translation to our verse then it does sound more like it's talking about earth's orbit than earth's shape.

This doesn't fit with what people of the time believed, tho. They thought the earth was at the center, and the sun was traveling in a circle (along with the rest of the visible universe). It wasn't until much later that astronomers put the sun in the center. You've heard of Copernicus?
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2016, 02:22:33 PM »
This thread has been off topic for a while. I'll post something regarding the Bible and flat earth.

There was an argument earlier in this thread that said the Bible teaches a flat earth when Satan took Jesus on top of the mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth. The argument is that this is not possible on a spherical earth therefore the earth is flat.

If our earth is flat and there was a mountain high enough from which you could see the entire earth, you should be able to see this mountain, or at least it's peak, from the entire earth as well.  I live in Canada, I have never seen this mountain peak. I was born in Germany and I never saw this mountain peak. I was even in Israel in 2014 and I didn't see this mountain. Even on airplanes that fly higher than any mountain on earth you can't see the entire earth.

So my argument is that regardless of whether this earth is round or flat, when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth it had to be in a supernatural way.

Why did he take him onto a high mountain? I don't know but that doesn't prove that the earth is flat.

hmmm.. the Angel Gabriel took Mohammed 'in a chair between heaven and earth' and showed him all the wonders of the universe/heavens..

funny that all religions tell a very similar story? or is it possible they're telling the same story?

its so obvious

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2016, 02:55:04 PM »
this is the worst post on the forum..

no one in here has a single clue.

and it wouldn't matter if you did.. you hardly even believe the non truth you believe in now..

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2016, 10:29:40 AM »
Quote
hmmm.. the Angel Gabriel took Mohammed 'in a chair between heaven and earth' and showed him all the wonders of the universe/heavens..

funny that all religions tell a very similar story? or is it possible they're telling the same story?

its so obvious

You only mentioned one other religion that has a similar story. Do you have more examples? The Quaran was written 500 years after the new testament so it's definitely not the Bible that is copying from the Quaran.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »
The Epic of Creation and Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia both have stories that seem to be very closely related to stories in the Bible - for instance, the Genesis version of creation and also the Great Flood. But they are WAY older.

And if you want more flood stories, just Google "List of Cultures with Great Flood Stories" and you'll see it's not unique to Mesopotamians and Christians.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2016, 01:30:42 PM »
Quote
hmmm.. the Angel Gabriel took Mohammed 'in a chair between heaven and earth' and showed him all the wonders of the universe/heavens..

funny that all religions tell a very similar story? or is it possible they're telling the same story?

its so obvious

You only mentioned one other religion that has a similar story. Do you have more examples? The Quaran was written 500 years after the new testament so it's definitely not the Bible that is copying from the Quaran.


krishna, buddha, horus, dionyses and MANY more, have VERY similar stories..
miracle birth
25th december birth
died for 3 days and resurrected
12 followers
etc etc

even Joseph, Mary's husband was born of a miracle birth

its all to do with the sky..

the SUN of God, LIGHT of the world, bringer of LIFE, dies for 3 days and resurrected (the birth story is blatantly retelling the winter solstice)

look into it, Christianity is one of the most modern retellings of the sky story

gods and angels are 'beings' who we can all agree, were described as 'not from earth', today we would categorise them as 'extraterrestrials'

the 12 followers of the son/sun are simply the constellations

even jesus himself, when asked 'when will the next passover be', replied 'when you see the man with the pitcher of water, follow him into his house' (Jesus is representing the age of Pisces, hence all the mentions of fish related stories in jesus's time), the constellation of Aquarius is the man holding the pitcher of water (the same reason for moses not being happy when he saw people worshipping a bull (Taurus), as he was representing the change into a new age too)


either way, all religions talk of 'other worldly visitors'
..its not very hard to work out what's going on

religions are not to be dismissed, they've been preserved for thousands of years..
but they're also not supposed to be taken literally either..

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2016, 01:58:38 PM »

krishna, buddha, horus, dionyses and MANY more, have VERY similar stories..
miracle birth
25th december birth
died for 3 days and resurrected
12 followers
etc etc


What absolute rubbish.  Just look Krishna's origin story, for starters:

Quote
Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva.[48][49][50] When Mother Earth became upset by the sin being committed on Earth, she thought of seeking help from Lord Vishnu. She went in the form of a cow to visit Lord Vishnu and ask for help. Lord Vishnu agreed to help her and promised her that he would be born on Earth. On Earth in the Yadava clan, he was yadav according to his birth, a prince named Kansa sent his father Ugrasena (King of Mathura) to prison and became the King himself. One day a loud voice from the sky (Akasha Vani in Samskrutam prophesied that the 8th son of Kansa's sister (Devaki) would kill Kansa. Out of affection for Devaki, Kansa did not kill her outright. He did, however, send his sister and her husband (Vasudeva) to prison. Lord Vishnu himself later appeared to Devaki and Vasudeva and told them that he himself would be their eighth son and kill Kansa and destroy sin in the world. In the story of Krishna the deity is the agent of conception and also the offspring.

blah...blah

Oh yeah, exactly like Jesus, I see what you mean now....

And nobody knows Jesus' apparent birth date, the Bible makes no mention.  And where did you get 25th December for the rest?
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2016, 02:01:25 PM »
And where did you get 25th December for the rest?
He's quoting an internet meme, doubt it's actually well researched.

I mean there are definitely common elements like that, but not to that extent.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2016, 08:55:32 PM »
This thread has been off topic for a while. I'll post something regarding the Bible and flat earth.

There was an argument earlier in this thread that said the Bible teaches a flat earth when Satan took Jesus on top of the mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth. The argument is that this is not possible on a spherical earth therefore the earth is flat.

If our earth is flat and there was a mountain high enough from which you could see the entire earth, you should be able to see this mountain, or at least it's peak, from the entire earth as well.  I live in Canada, I have never seen this mountain peak. I was born in Germany and I never saw this mountain peak. I was even in Israel in 2014 and I didn't see this mountain. Even on airplanes that fly higher than any mountain on earth you can't see the entire earth.

So my argument is that regardless of whether this earth is round or flat, when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth it had to be in a supernatural way.

Why did he take him onto a high mountain? I don't know but that doesn't prove that the earth is flat.

Shalom and welcome to the trenches. I said something similar a few posts back but you gave a better explanation.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2016, 10:27:09 PM »

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2016, 10:51:01 PM »
just Google it, there's plenty of places you can read about all this

Hindus believe that Krishna was the eighth "avatar" or incarnation of the god Vishnu - one of the Hindu deities in the Hindu trinity. Hindu scriptures state that Krishna "appeared in all the fullness of his power and glory." Krishna was born sometime between 900 and 1200 B.C. and his religious teachings can be found in the Bhagavad-Gita, one of the sacred texts in Hinduism. The karmic similarities between Jesus and the Hindu messiah named Krishna (1200 B.C.) are many. There over one hundred similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors which could easily fill a volume. Some of these similarities are apocryphal which means their source comes from the extra-canonical scriptures of Hinduism.
   
1. Identical Life Experiences
1.    Krishna was miraculously conceived and born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") as a divine incarnation.
2.    He was born at a time when his family had to travel to pay the yearly tax.
3.    His father was a carpenter yet Krishna was born of royal descent.
4.    His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gifts.
5.    He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants who feared that the divine child would supplant his kingdom.
6.    His father was warned by a heavenly voice to flee the tyrant who sought the death of the child. The child was then saved by friends who fled with them in the night to a distant country. When the tyrant learned that his attempt to kill the child failed, he issued a decree that all the infants in the area be put to death. Writing about Krishna in the eighteenth century, Sir William Jones stated, "In the Sanskrit dictionary, compiled more than two thousand years ago, we have the whole history of the incarnate deity, born of a virgin, and miraculously escaping in infancy from the reigning tyrant of his country." (Asiatic Researches, Vol. I, p. 273).
7.    The Bible states that Jesus and family fled to Egypt afterward to escape from King Herod. According to the Christian apocryphal text "the Gospel of the Infancy," the family traveled to Maturea, Egypt. Krishna was born in Maturea, India, hundreds of years earlier.
8.    He was baptized in the River Ganges.
9.    The missions of Krishna and Jesus were the same - the salvation of humanity.
10.    Krishna worked miracles and wonders such as raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
11.    Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
12.    Jesus taught his disciples about the possibility of removing a mountain by faith. According to tradition, Krishna raised Mount Goverdhen above his disciples to protect his worshipers from the wrath of Indra.
13.    "He lived poor and he loved the poor."
14.    Krishna washed the feet of the Brahmins and transfigured before his disciples.
15.    Krishna's teachings and Jesus' teachings were very similar. The celebrated French missionary and traveler, Evarist-Regis Hucv, who made a journey of several thousand miles through China and Tibet, stated, "If we addressed a Mogul or Tibetan this question, 'Who is Krishna?' the reply was instantly 'The savior of men." According to Robert Cheyne, "All that converting the Hindoos to Christianity does for them is to change the object of their worship from Krishna to Christ." Appleton's Cyclopedia says this about the teachings of Krishna: "Its correspondence with the New Testament is indeed striking."
16.    There is an extra-canonical Hindu tradition which states that Krishna was crucified. According to some traditions, Krishna died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
17.    He descended to hell, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended to heaven which was witnessed by many.
18.    Krishna is called the "shepherd god" and "lord of lords," and was considered "the redeemer, firstborn, sin bearer, liberator, universal Word."
19.    He is the second person of the trinity, and proclaimed himself the "resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
20.    He was considered the "beginning, the middle and the end," ("alpha and omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
21.    His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
22.    Krishna is to return again riding a white horse to do battle with the "prince of evil," who will desolate the Earth.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2016, 01:30:44 AM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2016, 03:42:02 AM »
just Google it
Game over.

Quote
Hindus believe that Krishna was the eighth "avatar" or incarnation of the god Vishnu - one of the Hindu deities in the Hindu trinity. Hindu scriptures state that Krishna "appeared in all the fullness of his power and glory." Krishna was born sometime between 900 and 1200 B.C. and his religious teachings can be found in the Bhagavad-Gita, one of the sacred texts in Hinduism....

*bunch of bullshit*

You just copy pasted that shit directly without any attribution.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2016, 06:59:13 AM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

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FalseProphet

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2016, 07:32:19 AM »
the Vatican has single handedly repressed human progression, destroyed scientific research

Historically there were a number of conflicts between church and science, but grnerally the catholic church was an important patron of science.

accepted, but there was a mass destruction of knowledge a long time ago, imagine where we'd be now if it wasn't for that.......

the mass control with the bible is dangerous, taking it literally is the main problem

There was not really a "mass destruction of knowledge". Maybe you think about the destruction of the library of Alexandria, but that was not a significant event. It burned down several times in the course of history. There were plenties of libraries and numerous copies of the books stored there. Typically papyrus scrolls had a rather low life span, so to pass on knowledge they had to be copied continuously. This ceased to be done due to the decline of the Roman Empire. The monks were the only ones who continued copying texts, so we owe them a lot. The scientific knowledge of the Greeks never was forgotten throughout the Middle Ages, that's just a myth. Most churchfathers appreciated Greek "narural philosophy". They did oppress parts of pagan literature though, that didn't fit in their moral or religious framework, like most of Ancient Greek belles lettres. So the loss induced by the church was a cultural rather than a scientific one.

Sure, the ancient Greek knowledge was not forgotten, but there's a problem. The monks considered it to be almost a dogma, and there seldom was any expansion of the knowledge or any correction and modification.

Yes, but that is true only for Europe, where urban life had almost disappeared in the early middle ages. At the same time Syrian, Arab and Persian scholars laid the actual foundation of modern science.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2016, 09:37:36 AM »
This doesn't fit with what people of the time believed, tho. They thought the earth was at the center, and the sun was traveling in a circle (along with the rest of the visible universe). It wasn't until much later that astronomers put the sun in the center. You've heard of Copernicus?

Sorry I couldn't reply on the weekend.

I didn't say that this is what Isaiah believed, I gave an example of how this verse could be interpreted to allow a spherical earth.

If you read the beginning of Isaiah chapter 40 http://biblehub.com/kjv/isaiah/40.htm it seems like God told Isaiah what to write down/say to the Israelites. So even if Isaiah believed that the earth was flat, God told him to write it down this way.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2016, 10:09:47 AM »
This doesn't fit with what people of the time believed, tho. They thought the earth was at the center, and the sun was traveling in a circle (along with the rest of the visible universe). It wasn't until much later that astronomers put the sun in the center. You've heard of Copernicus?

Sorry I couldn't reply on the weekend.

I didn't say that this is what Isaiah believed, I gave an example of how this verse could be interpreted to allow a spherical earth.

If you read the beginning of Isaiah chapter 40 http://biblehub.com/kjv/isaiah/40.htm it seems like God told Isaiah what to write down/say to the Israelites. So even if Isaiah believed that the earth was flat, God told him to write it down this way.

Why would Isaiah believe differently from his god? He wouldn't dare.

I do not think the Christian bible proves anything about the shape of the earth, only that it shows the people who wrote it were flat earthers. This was a widespread belief of the different peoples living at the time. This article (which I posted earlier) https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm explains what I mean.

You can put a modern interpretation on the bible and make it mean something different, but when it was written people thought the earth was flat. They thought the earth was the center of the universe, and that everything else revolved over it, or was hung from the dome or whatever. There were several cultures in the region with flat cosmologies, it wasn't just the ancient Hebrews. Their ancestors were FE, too. People today, who believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, have a problem with this, and try to reinterpret in ways that do not make them uncomfortable. I don't have a problem with this either, irl... but this is a debate forum, so if you post your ideas, they'll be debated.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2016, 10:26:38 AM »
copied and pasted? what would you prefer I do? This is old news that almost everyone worldwide is fully aware of..

if we're picking apart the bible then here's a question:

Adam and Eve's sons, Cain and Abel got married..

TO WHO???

the Bible was NEVER meant to be taken literally, it's blatantly obviously the ancients recording what they saw in the sky

the pagans are the closest to reality

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2016, 10:46:00 AM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2016, 10:49:59 AM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

and Mohammed was shown the exact same thing by the Angel Gabriel

but it was described as the wonders of the universe / the heavens

they all saw 'beings' that came from the sky, they're extraterrestrials

no ifs, no buts

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2016, 12:28:56 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

Where is this mountain and why can't I see it from where I'm at?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2016, 12:50:23 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

and Mohammed was shown the exact same thing by the Angel Gabriel

but it was described as the wonders of the universe / the heavens

they all saw 'beings' that came from the sky, they're extraterrestrials

no ifs, no buts

Ignored. Please look my signature rules of the ignoring number 2. bye.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2016, 12:55:34 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

Where is this mountain and why can't I see it from where I'm at?

We are talking with depending on the Bible. We don't critise it where the mountain or why don't you see it. This is not our matter. If you want to do that, i can do it too but is the Bible true or not is not our discuss. I'm believing it is true so don't want to discuss it why Bible is saying that or not.
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2016, 12:57:29 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

and Mohammed was shown the exact same thing by the Angel Gabriel

but it was described as the wonders of the universe / the heavens

they all saw 'beings' that came from the sky, they're extraterrestrials

no ifs, no buts

Ignored. Please look my signature rules of the ignoring number 2. bye.

Rule two doesn't makes sense. Can you explain?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2016, 01:01:06 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

Where is this mountain and why can't I see it from where I'm at?

We are talking with depending on the Bible. We don't critise it where the mountain or why don't you see it. This is not our matter. If you want to do that, i can do it too but is the Bible true or not is not our discuss. I'm believing it is true so don't want to discuss it why Bible is saying that or not.

I believe the Bible is true but I'm questioning your interpretation. As another poster and I explained since there is no mountain high enough to see everything then it must've been a supernatural event where satan show'd Jesus the kingdoms through a vision or something.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2016, 01:26:55 PM »
I believe the Bible is true but I'm questioning your interpretation. As another poster and I explained since there is no mountain high enough to see everything then it must've been a supernatural event where satan show'd Jesus the kingdoms through a vision or something.

At the risk of helping the FEers, I would point out that a tall mountain being created for a couple of minutes would hardly be the most noteworthy event in the Bible.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!