The Bible and flat earth.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2016, 02:39:54 PM »
rule number 2.. don't use facts, logic or reason.. or you'll be ignored

great debating with you lol

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2016, 05:34:45 PM »
I believe the Bible is true but I'm questioning your interpretation. As another poster and I explained since there is no mountain high enough to see everything then it must've been a supernatural event where satan show'd Jesus the kingdoms through a vision or something.

At the risk of helping the FEers, I would point out that a tall mountain being created for a couple of minutes would hardly be the most noteworthy event in the Bible.

Actually it would've. The Bible would've said something like "and satan made a high mountain and took Jesus there" or something. Not only that but there would be extra biblical text and history noting a huge mountain appearing out of nowhere and then disappearing.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2016, 05:49:09 PM »
Actually it would've. The Bible would've said something like "and satan made a high mountain and took Jesus there" or something. Not only that but there would be extra biblical text and history noting a huge mountain appearing out of nowhere and then disappearing.
There might've been texts etc talking about that, we hardly have a lot of records surviving since then. There's also no real record of, say, the darkness at Jesus' death (just people quoting the Bible).
Just saying, it's not a particularly impossible reading of the text, that Jesus was taken up a mountain meant solely for the one test, if altitude is the important factor. You can't argue interpretation of the text particularly easily: there's evidence both ways.
For the FEer, they need to get past the fact the creation of a mountain wasn't mentioned. For REers, you need to get past the fact the mountain was of precisely zero importance.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2016, 06:27:33 PM »
Then there's also the possibility that whoever wrote that passage got excessively excited about it and exaggerated the events. The devil most likely took Jesus to some hill and gave him a speach not unlike the one Mufasa gave to Simba. Probably a couple villages were visible, maybe a bit of a bit of desert...

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2016, 08:33:53 PM »
Actually it would've. The Bible would've said something like "and satan made a high mountain and took Jesus there" or something. Not only that but there would be extra biblical text and history noting a huge mountain appearing out of nowhere and then disappearing.
There might've been texts etc talking about that, we hardly have a lot of records surviving since then. There's also no real record of, say, the darkness at Jesus' death (just people quoting the Bible).

Actually there is. People have tracked an eclipse that happened during that time.

Quote
Just saying, it's not a particularly impossible reading of the text, that Jesus was taken up a mountain meant solely for the one test, if altitude is the important factor. You can't argue interpretation of the text particularly easily: there's evidence both ways.
For the FEer, they need to get past the fact the creation of a mountain wasn't mentioned. For REers, you need to get past the fact the mountain was of precisely zero importance.

True, but I think he took him up there to build himself up.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

wise

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2016, 11:10:30 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

and Mohammed was shown the exact same thing by the Angel Gabriel

but it was described as the wonders of the universe / the heavens

they all saw 'beings' that came from the sky, they're extraterrestrials

no ifs, no buts

Ignored. Please look my signature rules of the ignoring number 2. bye.

Rule two doesn't makes sense. Can you explain?

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The other question:


I believe the Bible is true but I'm questioning your interpretation. As another poster and I explained since there is no mountain high enough to see everything then it must've been a supernatural event where satan show'd Jesus the kingdoms through a vision or something.

Most of rounders critise me as i'm talking as a reverend and critising the holly books with new interpretation. I want to critise you with same words that rounders usually saying them for me: "everybody knowing wrong and only Luke knows true. reverends are stupid and only Luke is clever. And "this is not the real Christianity, the real Bible. Only Luke knows the true"  :)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 09:12:53 AM by İntikam »
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2016, 11:32:39 PM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now

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wise

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2016, 03:53:57 AM »
I modified my signature and add to WHO IGNORED WHY (CLICK HERE).

In this way you can find out why did you ignored. yes this is a kind of service. Vote me on 2016 election, as you see that i'm serving you.  ;D

« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 03:55:45 AM by İntikam »
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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2016, 03:59:05 AM »
Actually it would've. The Bible would've said something like "and satan made a high mountain and took Jesus there" or something. Not only that but there would be extra biblical text and history noting a huge mountain appearing out of nowhere and then disappearing.
There might've been texts etc talking about that, we hardly have a lot of records surviving since then. There's also no real record of, say, the darkness at Jesus' death (just people quoting the Bible).

Actually there is. People have tracked an eclipse that happened during that time.
As far as I know, the only actual evidence of that was written by someone called Thallus (and we don't actually have that source, we only have someone else, a Christian, talking about it, and pointing out that an eclipse was an impossible explanation: it was the wrong moon phase, and lasted far too long) and another called Phlegon (also quoted, a substantial amount of time after the fact). And as the former could not have been there and the latter lived far too long after the event, they could only be referencing sources that mentioned darkness and supposing an eclipse (wrongly) as an explanation. It's just as likely they were just quoting the Bible.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2016, 06:14:23 AM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2016, 06:17:30 AM »

Why would Isaiah believe differently from his god? He wouldn't dare.

I do not think the Christian bible proves anything about the shape of the earth, only that it shows the people who wrote it were flat earthers. This was a widespread belief of the different peoples living at the time. This article (which I posted earlier) https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm explains what I mean.

You can put a modern interpretation on the bible and make it mean something different, but when it was written people thought the earth was flat. They thought the earth was the center of the universe, and that everything else revolved over it, or was hung from the dome or whatever. There were several cultures in the region with flat cosmologies, it wasn't just the ancient Hebrews. Their ancestors were FE, too. People today, who believe the bible is the inerrant word of god, have a problem with this, and try to reinterpret in ways that do not make them uncomfortable. I don't have a problem with this either, irl... but this is a debate forum, so if you post your ideas, they'll be debated.

I agree with you that the Bible does not prove anything about the shape of the earth. It can be interpreted either way. The reason why I'm here debating this is because I have friends that are FEers and they are convinced that the Bible can only be interpreted to allow a flat earth. So this is good practice.

God, and therefore the Bible, is not concerned what a Christian believes about the shape of the earth. That's also why there is so little mentioned about that. So if Isaiah believes that the earth is flat then he can go right ahead and believe that, as long as he follows God's laws. Especially since no-one told him otherwise.

Where you see it as a modern interpretation I see divine inspiration. When the authors of the Bible wanted to mention something about the universe God made(there might be a better term to use here) them use equivocal terms so that future generations that know more about the universe, still have an inerrant Bible because it allows for the correct interpretation. I don't know if this is a good enough explanation for you but this makes sense to me.

I skimmed through your link and I'll take a closer look if I get more time today but I can probably give you an explanation for most of those arguments if you like. Let me know if you're interest and tell me which ones you'd like to here.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2016, 09:16:23 AM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

I'm all ears :)
(I do know the answer, I don't say things without research and cross examination)

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2016, 09:43:32 AM »

I skimmed through your link and I'll take a closer look if I get more time today but I can probably give you an explanation for most of those arguments if you like. Let me know if you're interest and tell me which ones you'd like to here.

The explanation for the arguments in the link are already there in the article. The only thing you could possibly do is disagree with them, and then say why you disagree. You are trying to make the Bible fit the modern round worldview, the article I linked discusses the ancient flat worldview. If you disagree that the ancient peoples of the region were FE, then I'd be interested in reading what you have to say about that.

I think your best argument for your FE Christian friends was this - "God, and therefore the Bible, is not concerned what a Christian believes about the shape of the earth."  If the Christian god exists, then I definitely agree that he wouldn't give a shit about earth shape beliefs.  He'd probably be annoyed about the flock concerning themselves with such things instead of obeying the commandments and worshiping. 

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2016, 06:06:41 PM »

I skimmed through your link and I'll take a closer look if I get more time today but I can probably give you an explanation for most of those arguments if you like. Let me know if you're interest and tell me which ones you'd like to here.

The explanation for the arguments in the link are already there in the article. The only thing you could possibly do is disagree with them, and then say why you disagree. You are trying to make the Bible fit the modern round worldview, the article I linked discusses the ancient flat worldview. If you disagree that the ancient peoples of the region were FE, then I'd be interested in reading what you have to say about that.

I think your best argument for your FE Christian friends was this - "God, and therefore the Bible, is not concerned what a Christian believes about the shape of the earth."  If the Christian god exists, then I definitely agree that he wouldn't give a shit about earth shape beliefs.  He'd probably be annoyed about the flock concerning themselves with such things instead of obeying the commandments and worshiping.

That argument would not be enough for them but thanks for the help.

When I asked if you wanted to hear(I'm aware of my spelling mistakes from the last post. I assure you I know the difference between here and hear) I didn't mean that you should give me an explanation, just the Bible verse. All Bible verses that are used as support for the FE can be interpreted differently without contradicting other verses in the Bible.

My point in this whole debate is that the Bible does not exclusively teach a FE. Whereas your argument is that the ancient people were all FEers so that's what they meant. So we're kind of arguing two different points.

It was a good talk anyway.

*

Luke 22:35-38

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2016, 06:17:47 PM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

I'm all ears :)
(I do know the answer, I don't say things without research and cross examination)

I'll answer for him. Cain married his sister. The Bible only focuses on Cain and Abel because its recording a big event (the first murder). By the time Cain was old enough to kill Abel Adam and Eve had more children.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2016, 06:22:15 PM »
The bible always says true so the earth is a flat. Oh i'm sorry if you are an atheist or satanist you don't need to believe the earth is flat.  :)

But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.

Bible saying that Jesus saw all of the countries on the earth when he is sitting on a mountain. The most of possibility is the earth is flat.

and Mohammed was shown the exact same thing by the Angel Gabriel

but it was described as the wonders of the universe / the heavens

they all saw 'beings' that came from the sky, they're extraterrestrials

no ifs, no buts

Ignored. Please look my signature rules of the ignoring number 2. bye.

Rule two doesn't makes sense. Can you explain?

Somebody did it instead of me. :)

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The other question:


I believe the Bible is true but I'm questioning your interpretation. As another poster and I explained since there is no mountain high enough to see everything then it must've been a supernatural event where satan show'd Jesus the kingdoms through a vision or something.

Most of rounders critise me as i'm talking as a reverend and critising the holly books with new interpretation. I want to critise you with same words that rounders usually saying them for me: "everybody knowing wrong and only Luke knows true. reverends are stupid and only Luke is clever. And "this is not the real Christianity, the real Bible. Only Luke knows the true"  :)

Your rule doesn't seem fair. Everybody jumps into other people's conversations. That's how most of the traffic operates. As for your other response, I'm open to be wrong. If you can show that I'm wrong then I will accept it.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2016, 06:34:50 PM »
Actually it would've. The Bible would've said something like "and satan made a high mountain and took Jesus there" or something. Not only that but there would be extra biblical text and history noting a huge mountain appearing out of nowhere and then disappearing.
There might've been texts etc talking about that, we hardly have a lot of records surviving since then. There's also no real record of, say, the darkness at Jesus' death (just people quoting the Bible).

Actually there is. People have tracked an eclipse that happened during that time.
As far as I know, the only actual evidence of that was written by someone called Thallus (and we don't actually have that source, we only have someone else, a Christian, talking about it, and pointing out that an eclipse was an impossible explanation: it was the wrong moon phase, and lasted far too long) and another called Phlegon (also quoted, a substantial amount of time after the fact). And as the former could not have been there and the latter lived far too long after the event, they could only be referencing sources that mentioned darkness and supposing an eclipse (wrongly) as an explanation. It's just as likely they were just quoting the Bible.

Why would renowned historians of that time would just parrot what someone else said? Btw I found an article on it.

http://creation.mobi/darkness-at-the-crucifixion-metaphor-or-real-history
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2016, 06:50:51 PM »
Renowned historians of that time only wanted to get fat checks (purses? Sacks?). To give an example, during the time of Annibal's invasion of Rome, the Senate was awfully against Quintus Flavius Maximus (as is known by the numerous jokes and flag he had to stand that have survived to our days). In the retelling of the Second Punic War, though, historians do little less than painting him as a hero and almost a demigod, loved by the people, as his tactics saved the Roman Empire, ignoring the fact almost noone really supported him, and making sure to tell that all the losses and bad decisions were not his responsibility.

So yeah, historians do bend history to meet someone's demands. In that case, the new Senators, after the supporters of other generals scurried away.

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2016, 10:45:45 PM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

I'm all ears :)
(I do know the answer, I don't say things without research and cross examination)

I'll answer for him. Cain married his sister. The Bible only focuses on Cain and Abel because its recording a big event (the first murder). By the time Cain was old enough to kill Abel Adam and Eve had more children.

is that a guess or do you have anything to back that up?

*

Slemon

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2016, 10:05:44 AM »
Why would renowned historians of that time would just parrot what someone else said? Btw I found an article on it.

http://creation.mobi/darkness-at-the-crucifixion-metaphor-or-real-history
All historians do is parrot what other people said, they weren't present throughout all of actual history.
Both Thallus and Phlegon were historians, though the latter was pretty much the equivalent of a UFO enthusiast (given his known work is primarily on oddities, and Origen's references state clearly Phlegon got details of the Bible wrong), and your link points out that Thallus' attribution was impossible. An eclipse couldn't be to blame for the darkness at that point in time, for so long. Just couldn't happen. So, if he were there, surely he'd notice it wasn't an eclipse? Thallus was writing a history, he obviously hadn't been at the Fall of Troy (which he also wrote on), he relied on sources and stories. Likely he heard "Darkness in the sky," and concluded an eclipse. Africanus, in turn, was just quoting Thallus: Africanus lived in 221AD, he certainly wasn't present.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Luke 22:35-38

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  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2016, 10:24:16 AM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

I'm all ears :)
(I do know the answer, I don't say things without research and cross examination)

I'll answer for him. Cain married his sister. The Bible only focuses on Cain and Abel because its recording a big event (the first murder). By the time Cain was old enough to kill Abel Adam and Eve had more children.

is that a guess or do you have anything to back that up?

It's deductive reasoning. The Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first and only couple so they would be our ancestors. If you look at the genealogy in the Bible it mostly focuses on the important people. It usually doesn't mention their siblings or names. Plus it's feasible.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2016, 10:28:07 AM »
Renowned historians of that time only wanted to get fat checks (purses? Sacks?). To give an example, during the time of Annibal's invasion of Rome, the Senate was awfully against Quintus Flavius Maximus (as is known by the numerous jokes and flag he had to stand that have survived to our days). In the retelling of the Second Punic War, though, historians do little less than painting him as a hero and almost a demigod, loved by the people, as his tactics saved the Roman Empire, ignoring the fact almost noone really supported him, and making sure to tell that all the losses and bad decisions were not his responsibility.

So yeah, historians do bend history to meet someone's demands. In that case, the new Senators, after the supporters of other generals scurried away.

Why would a pagan historian bend over for a small group of Christians?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2016, 10:32:22 AM »
Why would renowned historians of that time would just parrot what someone else said? Btw I found an article on it.

http://creation.mobi/darkness-at-the-crucifixion-metaphor-or-real-history
All historians do is parrot what other people said, they weren't present throughout all of actual history.
Both Thallus and Phlegon were historians, though the latter was pretty much the equivalent of a UFO enthusiast (given his known work is primarily on oddities, and Origen's references state clearly Phlegon got details of the Bible wrong), and your link points out that Thallus' attribution was impossible. An eclipse couldn't be to blame for the darkness at that point in time, for so long. Just couldn't happen. So, if he were there, surely he'd notice it wasn't an eclipse?

I retract the eclipse thing but to answer your question it would be the best answer they can come up with. It would be like someone today seeing a UFO and trying to explain it as an aircraft or something.

Quote
Thallus was writing a history, he obviously hadn't been at the Fall of Troy (which he also wrote on), he relied on sources and stories. Likely he heard "Darkness in the sky," and concluded an eclipse. Africanus, in turn, was just quoting Thallus: Africanus lived in 221AD, he certainly wasn't present.

Ok.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Slemon

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2016, 10:35:39 AM »
I retract the eclipse thing but to answer your question it would be the best answer they can come up with. It would be like someone today seeing a UFO and trying to explain it as an aircraft or something.
If they saw it, and there's no reason to think Thallus saw it. We can tell from Phlegon that historians did simply quote the Bible as evidence.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2016, 10:38:11 AM »
intikam - still waiting for an answer to my Cain and Abel comment

the reply will give me a better understanding of how you're interpreting the bible

Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel.. Cain and Abel married women right?
WHAT WOMEN???

the Bible is supposed to be taken metaphorically, NOT literally

it was written thousands of years ago, before we had the knowledge of space and physics we have now



i can answer this question

I'm all ears :)
(I do know the answer, I don't say things without research and cross examination)

I'll answer for him. Cain married his sister. The Bible only focuses on Cain and Abel because its recording a big event (the first murder). By the time Cain was old enough to kill Abel Adam and Eve had more children.

is that a guess or do you have anything to back that up?

It's deductive reasoning. The Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first and only couple so they would be our ancestors. If you look at the genealogy in the Bible it mostly focuses on the important people. It usually doesn't mention their siblings or names. Plus it's feasible.

so again, not taking the bible literally

you either take it literally, in which case Cain and Abel married women who weren't descendents of Adam and Eve
AND that mountain was big enough to see the whole world

OR

you take them BOTH with a pinch of salt

I don't do double standards so it's pretty much got to be one or the other, it can't be both

*

FalseProphet

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2016, 10:49:11 AM »

All historians do is parrot what other people said

That's the bad historians.

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Slemon

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2016, 11:36:40 AM »

All historians do is parrot what other people said

That's the bad historians.

True, parroting's not the best way to put it, but they need to go by source work.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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FalseProphet

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2016, 11:51:59 AM »

All historians do is parrot what other people said

That's the bad historians.

True, parroting's not the best way to put it, but they need to go by source work.

You are aware that talking with Luke is fruitless? As long as he can find and pick up straws in the trash dump, he will keep thinking that he is standing in a meadow.

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Slemon

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2016, 01:04:04 PM »
You are aware that talking with Luke is fruitless? As long as he can find and pick up straws in the trash dump, he will keep thinking that he is standing in a meadow.
If I was worried about convincing people, I wouldn't be on this forum.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

?

Papa Legba

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Re: The Bible and flat earth.
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2016, 01:06:33 PM »
Astroturfing duty again, JREF Jane?
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!