Airline WiFi - SAT Radio

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Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« on: June 17, 2016, 01:32:51 PM »
They state that the WiFi can only work if it has satellite signal. I noticed is does use Ku band 12-18 GHz, normal sat is usually around 2.4 GHz, so I am assuming it is bouncing signal from the ionosphere? The antenna is mounted on top of the plane, WiFi works on the ground and at 38K feet at 580 mph. I am just curious to hear what others have learned/researched about this. Keeping the items in their own post to stay on topic. New systems are to use Ka per the video below.

This same kind of question is to be raised with XM radio which is around 2.4 GHz so they say. My XM radio will lose a signal just going under a bridge. I go on many road trips, in many different cars all with XM and they all do it. It acts as a line-of-site type signal to be able to lose it under a bridge and it gets lost deep in the mountains at times well.

http://airinsight.com/2010/09/16/southwest-airlines-and-wifi/



Looking forward to your thoughts.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:45:03 PM by rimshotwheelie »

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2016, 10:30:43 PM »
Satellites and bouncing signals are both ku band...television was bounced off the troposphere from London to Germany in 1978 ,sixteen years later satellite TV is made available to Americans.

Satellites and bouncing signals are so similar, same frequencies same dishes to receive signals that there really is no difference... Except satellites are hundreds of millions of dollars more expensive, bouncing signals just need more towers to cover the same area.
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2016, 11:03:35 PM »
Satellites and bouncing signals are both ku band...television was bounced off the troposphere from London to Germany in 1978 ,sixteen years later satellite TV is made available to Americans.

Satellites and bouncing signals are so similar, same frequencies same dishes to receive signals that there really is no difference... Except satellites are hundreds of millions of dollars more expensive, bouncing signals just need more towers to cover the same area.

Tropospheric propagation is scattering,  not suitable for  high bandwidth  12 Ghz tv signals.   You need to understand a subject a bit better before you start leaping to false conclusions.

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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 11:09:56 PM »
They state that the WiFi can only work if it has satellite signal. I noticed is does use Ku band 12-18 GHz, normal sat is usually around 2.4 GHz, so I am assuming it is bouncing signal from the ionosphere? The antenna is mounted on top of the plane, WiFi works on the ground and at 38K feet at 580 mph. I am just curious to hear what others have learned/researched about this. Keeping the items in their own post to stay on topic. New systems are to use Ka per the video below.

This same kind of question is to be raised with XM radio which is around 2.4 GHz so they say. My XM radio will lose a signal just going under a bridge. I go on many road trips, in many different cars all with XM and they all do it. It acts as a line-of-site type signal to be able to lose it under a bridge and it gets lost deep in the mountains at times well.

http://airinsight.com/2010/09/16/southwest-airlines-and-wifi/

Looking forward to your thoughts.

You claim "normal sat is usually around 2.4 GHz". I really don't know what you mean. Wifi uses 2.4 GHz and  5.8 GHz, but I don't know what satellites would. Satellite TV uses C-band and Ku-band, but the video said that the aircraft internet link uses the much higher Ka-band, with GPS to direct the Ku-band (TV) and Ka-band (internet) antennae to the appropriate satellites.

Quote
Ka band
The Ka band ("kay-ay band") covers the frequencies of 26.5–40 GHz.

I have seen no evidence that troposphere scatter could possibly by used on an aircraft! Look at the sort of antenna needed!

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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2016, 03:07:45 AM »
They state that the WiFi can only work if it has satellite signal. I noticed is does use Ku band 12-18 GHz, normal sat is usually around 2.4 GHz, so I am assuming it is bouncing signal from the ionosphere?
Who is bouncing what off the ionosphere?  Why can't satellites use Ku-band?

Quote
The antenna is mounted on top of the plane, WiFi works on the ground and at 38K feet at 580 mph. I am just curious to hear what others have learned/researched about this
I've used it myself, on a different airline (same GoGo service) on a transatlantic flight.  It will be the norm on long haul flights very shortly.
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2016, 03:12:50 AM »
Satellites and bouncing signals are both ku band...television was bounced off the troposphere from London to Germany
No, it wasn't.  This is how British Forces Broadcasting actually worked:

"BFBS Television started in Celle, near Hanover in the then West Germany on 18 September 1975 from Trenchard Barracks.[23] This used taped broadcasts from the BBC and ITV, flown to Germany from London, which were then rebroadcast using low-power UHF transmitters.[24] Live broadcasts of news and sport began in 1983, using a microwave link between the UK and West Germany, extending as far east as West Berlin.[25]

The BFBS TV service used the 625-line PAL system, used in the UK as well as West Germany.[26] By 1982, it was available at 50 sites throughout northern and central regions of West Germany.[27]

It was known as SSVC Television (Services Sound and Vision Corporation) between 1985 and 1997, when it reverted to the BFBS name.[28] Today it now broadcasts live via satellite. DVDs are still sent to forces serving in more remote areas. There was also a service known as Navy TV, which broadcasts time-shifted versions of the channel to Royal Navy vessels around the world via military satellite.[29]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Forces_Broadcasting_Service#BFBS_Television
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2016, 06:21:16 AM »
It says 'microwave link' in your text that's troposcatter, so yes it can be used for anything satellites claim to do.
Raytheon have a mobile troposcatter unit that can set up data transfer rates that are very fast using troposcatter. An actual building with a troposcatter broadcaster would be capable of more, the more power you use the better it is.
The Raytheon unit broadcasts in the ku band and is capable of high bandwidth so rayzor doesn't know what he is talking about

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/troposcatter/

« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:33:39 AM by Ex-Globe »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2016, 06:28:06 AM »
It says 'microwave link' in your text that's troposcatter, so yes it can be used for anything satellites claim to do.
Raytheon have a mobile troposcatter unit that can set up data transfer rates that are very fast using troposcatter. An actual building with a troposcatter broadcaster would be capable of more, the more power you use the better it is.

Bzzzzt !    wrong again.   

Rayethon BLOS   range is limited to 50 miles or so at the higher data rates.  Still nowhere near the bandwidth or the range of satellite TV systems.

Try to get at least ONE thing right FFS.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:35:00 AM by Rayzor »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2016, 06:35:14 AM »
That's because it's a mobile unit,ie low power

The microwave link from UK to Germany was about 500 miles! But you conveniently ignore that!

Also in 1983 computers were thousands of times slower than they are today, this allows us to do all kinds of trickery to get higher bandwidth, one being compression.
When you download a file and unzip it you are decompressing it, decompressing a TV signal in real time would have been unthinkable in the 80's but now it would be easy.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:58:07 AM by Ex-Globe »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2016, 06:56:05 AM »
That's because it's a mobile unit,ie low power

The microwave link from UK to Germany was about 500 miles! But you conveniently ignore that!

500 miles is nothing.   try and get a signal in the middle of the pacific ocean, see how you go.   Idiot.

Amateur radio records are 2000+ km tropo scatter,  low band width and  rare events.    HAARP was an experiment to try and ionize parts of the troposphere with UHF HF  high power to improve tropospheric propagation,  it worked,  but is obsolete because  satellites do it cheaper and better.

Tropospheric scatter is not even close to being an alternative to satellite communications.   

« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:03:31 AM by Rayzor »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2016, 07:00:18 AM »
You can't get satellite TV in the middle of the ocean!!

If you actually look at the satellite footprints they are only on land or close to a coastline!

https://sat.ses.com/webservice/images/7407289

No more than 500 miles away from any coast
E.g.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:06:32 AM by Ex-Globe »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2016, 08:20:15 AM »
You can't get satellite TV in the middle of the ocean!!

If you actually look at the satellite footprints they are only on land or close to a coastline!

https://sat.ses.com/webservice/images/7407289

No more than 500 miles away from any coast
E.g.
At least you now understand how satellite broadcasting works.  Line of sight to a satellite over the equator for broadsat tv.

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2016, 09:01:20 AM »
You can't get satellite TV in the middle of the ocean!!

If you actually look at the satellite footprints they are only on land or close to a coastline!

https://sat.ses.com/webservice/images/7407289

No more than 500 miles away from any coast
E.g.

Some of them are intentionally confined to land areas - namely, the ones intended for reception only in said land areas. Do you think the one linked is the only TV satellite footprint?
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2016, 09:21:53 AM »
You can't get satellite TV in the middle of the ocean!!
What does satellite TV service have to do with satellite internet service?  ???
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2016, 11:28:10 AM »
I got 'derailed' into focusing on satellite TV when this thread is about internet.

TV and Internet are different beasts altogether, TV is pretty high bandwidth that only goes in one direction, so high powered troposcatter towers are needed ,with troposcatter the more power you use the further you can broadcast and the higher the bandwidth.

Satellite internet is pretty low bandwidth and incredibly expensive. Looking at the antenna used for MARITIME satellite internet it seems they don need dishes,but can be used with an antenna that doesn't require an exact angle like Sat TV. Not 100% sure though still looking into it.

Maritime satellite internet could be provided by super pressure balloons, they can hold 8000lbs of equipment, you can't use dishes with them because they don't stay still

http://www.globalmarinenet.com/satellite-internet-at-sea-hardware-airtime-and-pricing/

None of these boat antenna seem to be dishes


« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 11:57:39 AM by Ex-Globe »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2016, 12:57:50 PM »
I got 'derailed' into focusing on satellite TV when this thread is about internet.

TV and Internet are different beasts altogether, TV is pretty high bandwidth that only goes in one direction, so high powered troposcatter towers are needed ,with troposcatter the more power you use the further you can broadcast and the higher the bandwidth.

Satellite internet is pretty low bandwidth and incredibly expensive. Looking at the antenna used for MARITIME satellite internet it seems they don need dishes,but can be used with an antenna that doesn't require an exact angle like Sat TV. Not 100% sure though still looking into it.

Maritime satellite internet could be provided by super pressure balloons, they can hold 8000lbs of equipment, you can't use dishes with them because they don't stay still

http://www.globalmarinenet.com/satellite-internet-at-sea-hardware-airtime-and-pricing/

None of these boat antenna seem to be dishes



That dish is what is under those domes.

I have seen antennas similar to sat-phones used and sat-phones used for data, but they run a rather slow speeds.

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2016, 01:01:55 PM »
I got 'derailed' into focusing on satellite TV when this thread is about internet.

TV and Internet are different beasts altogether, TV is pretty high bandwidth that only goes in one direction, so high powered troposcatter towers are needed ,with troposcatter the more power you use the further you can broadcast and the higher the bandwidth.

Perhaps up to a couple hundred miles. Beyond that it doesn't work, no matter how much power you use, except under very unusual conditions.

Quote
Satellite internet is pretty low bandwidth and incredibly expensive. Looking at the antenna used for MARITIME satellite internet it seems they don need dishes,but can be used with an antenna that doesn't require an exact angle like Sat TV. Not 100% sure though still looking into it.

Please let us know what you find.

Quote
Maritime satellite internet could be provided by super pressure balloons, they can hold 8000lbs of equipment[citation needed], you can't use dishes with them because they don't stay still

If you're using balloons, that wouldn't be "satellite internet". Beside that quibble, though, how high can your proposed balloons carry four tons of payload, and how long can they stay at that altitude? If they're at 60,000 feet, they would have to be within about 600 miles of each other or within about 300 miles of a ground terminal in order to relay the data somewhere useful. How many would it take to cover the entire Pacific Ocean

Inmarsat's SwiftBroadband (pdf) covers the entire world between about 65° north and south latitude, and much of it up to 70°, with three satellites. The entire Pacific Ocean is covered by two satellites, which also cover about half of the Atlantic and Indian Oceans at the same time. Their low-gain aircraft blade antenna provides up to about 200 kbps over a smaller area (complete coverage to about 35° latitude, and partial coverage to about 55°. The highest-gain antenna allows up to 1728 kbps.

Quote
http://www.globalmarinenet.com/satellite-internet-at-sea-hardware-airtime-and-pricing/

None of these boat antenna seem to be dishes

What's inside those radomes?

I see Woody beat you to it. According to you, those antennas are not satisfactory for using balloon relay. Troposcatter won't reach far. That pretty much leaves satellites, then.

[Edit to add consequence of information in Woody's post.]
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 01:05:46 PM by Alpha2Omega »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2016, 01:13:23 PM »
I got 'derailed' into focusing on satellite TV when this thread is about internet.

TV and Internet are different beasts altogether, TV is pretty high bandwidth that only goes in one direction, so high powered troposcatter towers are needed ,with troposcatter the more power you use the further you can broadcast and the higher the bandwidth.

Satellite internet is pretty low bandwidth and incredibly expensive. Looking at the antenna used for MARITIME satellite internet it seems they don need dishes,but can be used with an antenna that doesn't require an exact angle like Sat TV. Not 100% sure though still looking into it.

Maritime satellite internet could be provided by super pressure balloons, they can hold 8000lbs of equipment, you can't use dishes with them because they don't stay still

http://www.globalmarinenet.com/satellite-internet-at-sea-hardware-airtime-and-pricing/

None of these boat antenna seem to be dishes
Link to any tropo broadcast HD multi channel TV please.

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2016, 03:38:26 PM »
In 1983 the microwave link was used for one tv channel, but computer processors are thousands of times faster now so many tricks can be used to increase the bandwidth,
real time compression can be used,this would have been impossible in the eighties
The faster processor also allow the microwave to be changed more times per second.

The low powered Raytheon units can do 20megaBYTES per second, so high powered towers must be able to do more.

The satellite internet must only work when the boat is perfectly still? If I Bob's up and down it would probably lose its signal right?

The coverage area for this boat internet seems to hug the coastlines of several countries and actually mimics the flat earth map!
Ie hardly any coverage in the southern hemisphere,except next to land!
http://www.satphonestore.com/application-browsing/marine/marine-internet/kvh-01-0335-11-tracphone-v3-ip.html

Please provide the product page for the satellite dish picture you posted!


« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 04:01:07 PM by Ex-Globe »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2016, 04:36:13 PM »
In 1983 the microwave link was used for one tv channel, but computer processors are thousands of times faster now so many tricks can be used to increase the bandwidth,
real time compression can be used,this would have been impossible in the eighties

The bandwidth of a microwave channel is what it is; it can be changed only by narrowing or widening the band the signal is allowed to occupy. Newer modulation systems allow more data to be transmitted in a given bandwidth, and compression, to a certain extent, can be used to increase the amount of information carried by a given amount of data, but the amount of compression is dependent in part on the data itself, so it cannot be accurately predicted. A popular technique to cram more material in a given amount of data (and, thus, bandwidth) is to discard some of the information, which is why low-bitrate compressed audio and video tend to sound and look crappy.

Quote
The faster processor also allow the microwave to be changed more times per second.

What does this mean?

Quote
The low powered Raytheon units can do 20megaBYTES per second, so high powered towers must be able to do more.

Are you still talking about troposcatter? If so, regardless of the transmitter power, the effective range will not be increased beyond perhaps a couple hundred miles with any reliability.

Quote
The satellite internet must only work when the boat is perfectly still? If I Bob's up and down it would probably lose its signal right?

Wrong. Two words: stabilized platforms.

Two more words: they work.

[Edit after your edit]
Quote
The coverage area for this boat internet seems to hug the coastlines of several countries and actually mimics the flat earth map!
Ie hardly any coverage in the southern hemisphere,except next to land!
http://www.satphonestore.com/application-browsing/marine/marine-internet/kvh-01-0335-11-tracphone-v3-ip.html

Here's the map from the Coverage Area tab on the page you linked:

.

"Hugs coastlines"? Almost the entire ocean area in the northern hemisphere is covered. If you're wondering why there is no mid-ocean coverage in the southern oceans, why don't you ask the provider? I suspect it's based on the cost of such coverage versus the number of customers expected, but they would be the ones who would know.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 04:55:56 PM by Alpha2Omega »
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2016, 04:43:22 PM »
I got 'derailed' into focusing on satellite TV when this thread is about internet.

TV and Internet are different beasts altogether, TV is pretty high bandwidth that only goes in one direction, so high powered troposcatter towers are needed ,with troposcatter the more power you use the further you can broadcast and the higher the bandwidth.

Satellite internet is pretty low bandwidth and incredibly expensive. Looking at the antenna used for MARITIME satellite internet it seems they don need dishes,but can be used with an antenna that doesn't require an exact angle like Sat TV. Not 100% sure though still looking into it.

Maritime satellite internet could be provided by super pressure balloons, they can hold 8000lbs of equipment, you can't use dishes with them because they don't stay still

http://www.globalmarinenet.com/satellite-internet-at-sea-hardware-airtime-and-pricing/

None of these boat antenna seem to be dishes
I have two words to describe your rubbish: Guess, might be!

So your balloons are installed ALL OVER THE EARTH. More  Guess, might be!

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2016, 04:58:41 PM »
I have two words to describe your rubbish: Guess, might be!

That's three words.
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2016, 04:59:44 PM »
In 1983 the microwave link was used for one tv channel, but computer processors are thousands of times faster now so many tricks can be used to increase the bandwidth,
real time compression can be used,this would have been impossible in the eighties
The faster processor also allow the microwave to be changed more times per second.

The low powered Raytheon units can do 20megaBYTES per second, so high powered towers must be able to do more.

The satellite internet must only work when the boat is perfectly still? If I Bob's up and down it would probably lose its signal right?

The coverage area for this boat internet seems to hug the coastlines of several countries and actually mimics the flat earth map!
Ie hardly any coverage in the southern hemisphere,except next to land!
http://www.satphonestore.com/application-browsing/marine/marine-internet/kvh-01-0335-11-tracphone-v3-ip.html

Please provide the product page for the satellite dish picture you posted!

Well I have used these services and crossed oceans and had internet service the entire trips.


Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2016, 05:27:55 PM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new,
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.

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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2016, 06:29:16 PM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new,
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.

Did you see the coverage map in my post?  That is for Broadband internet.  The only areas not covered are the poles.

Coverage changes depending on the provider and the satellites they are using.

Here was the limit of LORAN coverage:



If you want to see the coverage of GPS just look at a map of the world.

Why would you think they would fake how GPS works?  LORAN was being used and the only issue was coverage.  There was not a demand for a satellite based system.  There was demand for more coverage.  GPS uses satellites because it is more feasible and cost effective then installing and maintaining enough transmitters to cover the entire globe.


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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2016, 07:20:08 PM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new,
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.

Who says?   I live in the Southern Hemisphere,  what parts do you think aren't covered?   

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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2016, 07:24:38 PM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new

Do you think LORAN and IP connectivity are the same?

Quote
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.

The provider you reference doesn't seem cover the southern mid-ocean areas. If you're interested in their service but hesitate because their coverage area doesn't seem to fit your needs, you might ask them why or consider another provider. Other providers do cover that area, but, unfortunately, you might have to pay more for the service because there is a smaller customer base, so less service. It's probably a matter of supply and demand.

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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2016, 08:06:35 PM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new,
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.

Why do you so often present completely incorrect information?
It's really weird how a satellite internet service specifically can't cover the southern hemisphere very well.
This is completely incorrect, as a couple on minutes looking would have told you!

Geostationary satellites have certain designed "footprints". They can cover a large part of the side of the earth they are facing.

Coverage is usually intentionally restricted because for example a satellite providing Australian TV does not need to cover outside the country and the smaller the coverage area to less transmitting power needed.

If a satellite needs to cover a large area, for example for phone or internet service at sea of in the air, a larger power or lower bandwidth most be accepted.

But we have told you exactly the same thing numerous times, but you take no notice and still come out with the same ignorant statements.

Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2016, 05:39:24 AM »
In world war two Loran covered the entire northern Atlantic so that's nothing new,
What's this got to do with broadband internet?
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Re: Airline WiFi - SAT Radio
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2016, 10:22:13 AM »
The map of coverage for the satellite internet company is weird because it is advertised as a service for boats but it seems very limited. It covers all the land in the world no problem but has a problem with ocean coverage....
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