The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE

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The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« on: June 11, 2016, 05:54:19 AM »
This argument is based on everyday easily verifiable observations :

1 On date  21:06:2016 and time:  21:41 GMT Australia, South America and South Africa shares night time, you could easily check this even from your FE Day and night calculators or from public databases, or contacting people on those locations.

2 Southern cross is visible at the same time from those locations, this could be checked very easily also from star charts or from testimonies from people.

The argument as follows:

3 guys looking at south at Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Augusta Australia at the same time at 21:06:2016 21:41 GMT And they all can see the southern Cross constellation , but they all facing the rim of FE in different directions. How is This possible on Fe ?

here is the diagram, as you can see they dont just see the same constellation but the orientation of the cross is changing by location as expected on a globe geometry


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Kami

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2016, 07:13:47 AM »
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2016, 07:35:19 AM »
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

haha, very good, did you checked the sun rising in the morning ? :D There is an agreement in FE that the RE predictions and data are based on empiric evidence and they are sorta works.

As I stated all the necessary data are obtainable from public or FE databases. My sources anyway: stellarium and http://www.timeanddate.com/

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Pezevenk

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2016, 08:07:02 AM »
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

That's not a smart thing to ask. The southern cross is a well-known constellation that is seen from all over the southern hemisphere. You don't have to perform an "experiment" to determine that. You can ask anyone who lives in the southern hemisphere, and if for some reason it wasn't visible, many of the 800 million people living there and the thousands of sailors who have used it for navigation purposes would have pointed it out.
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disputeone

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2016, 06:12:21 PM »
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

I'm happy to verify the southern cross in Australia for said experiment, Augusta is a nice ride only two hours away for me.
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Blue_Moon

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 07:58:57 PM »
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay. 
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Kami

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2016, 03:17:35 AM »
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2016, 03:31:44 AM »
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.
Yes, I go for the simple things that anyone can see.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2016, 05:29:36 AM »
I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?
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Kami

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2016, 08:27:51 AM »
I think legba is no FE'er, if I remember correctly.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2016, 09:39:50 AM »
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

I'm happy to verify the southern cross in Australia for said experiment, Augusta is a nice ride only two hours away for me.

Albany is also a good spot at that given time, if you could snap a time stamped pic of the cross that would be a good addition.

I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?

Anyway, This Fe crap started to get out of control especially in Facebook an yt, maybe it's time to construct some easily comprehensible diagrams or memes to spread, with the sun and the Crux/ polaris navigation,  :D

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Blue_Moon

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2016, 06:33:46 PM »
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.

But I can't see the southern cross from the northern hemisphere.  Sure, you may have to check online for the numbers pertaining to individual satellites, but TFES will never be able to come up with a better explanation. 
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Pezevenk

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 03:00:15 AM »
I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?

Most flat earthers quit whenever the southern circumpolar stars are mentioned. They have no way to explain them. When they reply, they either ask if you've seen them yourself (and if you say you have they tell you you're using anecdotal evidence to prove your point and don't believe you, so it's a trap), or they come up with magical incomprehensible theories like DE or non-euclidean earth that don't even actually attempt to explain anything, because they aren't properly formulated, but they claim they do.
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It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 08:08:38 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 08:14:30 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 08:23:26 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

just pointing out, that this topic is come up over and over, also on yt, and those guys just ranting and babbling about conspiracies and hunt for "errors" in nasa videos for hours instead of addressing the main conundrums of FE, and we have some yt-er here. Also the yt is the pinnacle of Fe research as i noticed.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 08:27:51 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 09:37:23 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!

Didn't everyone just wander here?

This topic has been discussed on this forum lots of times. You could search for "Southern Cross", but I think this is too much for most roundies.

I have seen some FE talk about celestial gears regarding the constellations. This is, I think, misunderstood by people who are imagining clockworks in the sky or something. It's more to describe how the stars move. The Southern stars are near the rim, the countries nearer the rim see those stars. The stars are moving sort of in a circle over the flat earth, the way the sun does.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 10:12:11 AM »
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!

Didn't everyone just wander here?

This topic has been discussed on this forum lots of times. You could search for "Southern Cross", but I think this is too much for most roundies.

I have seen some FE talk about celestial gears regarding the constellations. This is, I think, misunderstood by people who are imagining clockworks in the sky or something. It's more to describe how the stars move. The Southern stars are near the rim, the countries nearer the rim see those stars. The stars are moving sort of in a circle over the flat earth, the way the sun does.

i'm actually read all that up here, those are not as long conversations as you think.

the problem with celestial gears: 1 they are not explain the situation with the crux above 2 they try to explain the celestial poles, but there is no transition zones on the sky:

The stars are changes continuously as you travel south their measured altitude changes are totally correspond with your movement dictated by sphere geometry.

This phenomena is in practical use as celestial navigation they use for this purpose a celestial globes, where your coordinates at given time totally corresponds with the visible constellations  and their coordinates on a celestial globe.

So the earth and the sky is connected in spherical geometry and it was proved by practice.

And the celestial south pole is must be above one point on earth as the north, It is verifiable by traveling very close or to the south pole as a tourist.

Oh, and all the above observations are  could be very easily explainable by the round earth model, it is just simple geometry, nothing fancy there really, just a spinning ball and a sky modell.... no need of strange bendy light, celestial gears, ether, whirlpools, mirrors and smoke.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 03:05:56 PM by aisantaros »

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2016, 04:52:36 PM »
I'm going to try to be unbiased because I'm new to all of the flat earth theories but have not yet been convinced.  But the only thing that diagram proves is the location of the southern cross.

Look at your ceiling fan, or anything on your ceiling from a wall.  Now walk to the other side of the room and the image you saw is upside down.  Actually if they can all see it at the same time whatsoever that just makes the earth seem flatter to me.  Please, let me know if and how Im wrong.  I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm trying to learn some shit.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2016, 05:01:29 PM »
Also why does the constellation look so much smaller from Rio than from Cape Town?  If the stars are millions of light years away wouldn't only less than 25% of the earths surface have very little affect on the view? Or could that just mean the southern cross is in between Augusta and Cape Town, making Rio the farthest.

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sokarul

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2016, 05:10:55 PM »
I'm going to try to be unbiased because I'm new to all of the flat earth theories but have not yet been convinced.  But the only thing that diagram proves is the location of the southern cross.

Look at your ceiling fan, or anything on your ceiling from a wall.  Now walk to the other side of the room and the image you saw is upside down.  Actually if they can all see it at the same time whatsoever that just makes the earth seem flatter to me.  Please, let me know if and how Im wrong.  I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm trying to learn some shit.
You are confused. The three people at the three locations can't all look south and see the same thing.

Try this. Have 4 people stand with their faces all touching a different wall. How many of them see the fan?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2016, 05:35:42 PM »
Wouldn't all four people just see the wall their faces are touching?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2016, 06:33:33 PM »
Yeah I accidently skimmed over the facing south part.  I only ended up here because of a UFO sighting I experienced which has changed the way I see everything as far as perceived truths and government corruption, but no I don't believe the illuminati are reptiles.  What can I say? I got sucked into the rabbit hole, and its very sexy.   But it has caused enough interest in me to follow the discussion and read every argument on both sides.  There are still some unanswered questions for me.  Like was Nikola Tesla really trying to prove Einstein wrong about gravity?  Someone like me would be more likely to side with the guy who created wireless electricity than the guy who created the atom bomb.  Just like to play devils advocate.

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Blue_Moon

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2016, 07:53:39 PM »
Yeah I accidently skimmed over the facing south part.  I only ended up here because of a UFO sighting I experienced which has changed the way I see everything as far as perceived truths and government corruption, but no I don't believe the illuminati are reptiles.  What can I say? I got sucked into the rabbit hole, and its very sexy.   But it has caused enough interest in me to follow the discussion and read every argument on both sides.  There are still some unanswered questions for me.  Like was Nikola Tesla really trying to prove Einstein wrong about gravity?  Someone like me would be more likely to side with the guy who created wireless electricity than the guy who created the atom bomb.  Just like to play devils advocate.

Describe the UFO you claim to have seen. 
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rabinoz

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2016, 08:41:33 PM »
Also why does the constellation look so much smaller from Rio than from Cape Town?  If the stars are millions of light years away wouldn't only less than 25% of the earths surface have very little affect on the view? Or could that just mean the southern cross is in between Augusta and Cape Town, making Rio the farthest.
They only look a different size is only in that image, not in real life.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2016, 08:55:09 PM »
See thats why I have some sense of sympathy for the flat earth people, because I come here trying to get involved in a discussion and when you say UFO people think you're lying or delusional.  I'm not going to describe it to you and I know a handful of others that have had similar experiences, some in groups.  So if the flat earth is a lie so are UFOs?  So is everything you haven't pissed on physically?  Doesn't the earth being round in a giant universe increase the supposed likelihood of UFOs?  You know most governments actually release their UFO information publically unlike America.  So governments lie about that but not about Antarctica?  Before I got stuck looking at flat earth shit for giggles I just got done reading universe from nothing, I skimmed over two words and people can't handle it..  I'm not here because I'm a barbarian I just enjoy discussions.  If you guys were as brilliant as you claim to be you wouldn't be hovering over a message board.

Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2016, 11:00:55 PM »
All that only because someone told you to tell your story?

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Kami

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Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2016, 02:45:31 AM »
If you want to believe in conspiracy theories, take others. UFO sightings are fine, they can not be debunked that easily. I do not believe that we have been visited by aliens, but hey, it is far from impossible.

But once you look at star movements in the southern hemisphere (or even sunsets, not to mention satellites), it is evident that a flat earth is impossible, and no amount of alleged conspiracy can account for that.

John Davis' approach to flat earth is another thing, but it seems as if he accepted round earth and just tries to embed it into a higher dimension of space. I do not know if he accepts standard math (meaning the one derived from the ZFC axioms), but if he does, he might face some difficulties. But we will only be able to talk about that once he says something definite about his theory.

The standard "flat flying disc" model can not account for everyday observations, though.