Opinions on the Merger

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John Davis

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Opinions on the Merger
« on: May 24, 2016, 02:24:36 PM »
*These posts were split from another thread -Pongo*


My words were a bit harsh. Calling them terrorists is a bit much, and their choice to make their own site really doesn't affect us. I've talked a bit with the other side today and extended my apologies. I expressed some interest in unification. The term used was that we would be "amiable" towards talks. I still feel their actions were a bit beyond the line, but there were problems on both sides.

There is clearly risk here though. Both sides seem to agree that the terms would have to change. I honestly don't see much hope in it, but due to me speaking so harshly, I thought it would be best to reach out and see the interest on both sides. There seems to be more interest on the other side than I previously thought.

Currently our entire moderation/administration team except 3 are against it. Unless this changes, the merger won't happen. It also seems like they are demanding jroa be demodded. I'm not crazy about this. He's manned the guns for far to long and the idea of throwing him to the curb really isn't sitting well with me.

I have also been contacted regarding this from several of our users talking against the merger.

None of this will happen without the blessings of our users, the administrators, the mods and Daniel. So. There's not really any hope, but there is.

It might be best if we all continued our own ways. What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:16:12 PM by Pongo »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 02:57:46 PM »
I still see no reason why the forums should be merged.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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markjo

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 03:44:03 PM »
I still see no reason why the forums should be merged.
As I recall, the primary reason for the forums to be merged was to that the "official" site would have full time technical support and maintenance by people who actually know how to properly support a web site in a timely manner, rather than halfhearted support whenever an admin (or, heaven forbid, Daniel) decides to stop by.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 03:46:31 PM »
The official site does have full time technical support. Are you having issues with the forum?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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John Davis

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 04:03:51 PM »
Thank you SCG!

But, I see Markjos point - if I were hit by a bus tomorrow we would be in trouble. On the otherhand, I may be able to recruit some more tech talent. I've had decent success recruiting bloggers.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 04:04:19 PM »
It also seems like they are demanding jroa be demodded. I'm not crazy about this. He's manned the guns for far to long and the idea of throwing him to the curb really isn't sitting well with me.
 What are your thoughts?

Toss him out of the car, laugh scornfully, and roar off into the sunset in a cloud of dust. The fact that he's been smearing his own droppings all over this forum for what amounts to about twenty entire days of his life (yes, I did the maths) doesn't negate that he's smearing crap rather than cleaning up.
I mean, don't you ever wonder why the other site don't want him? If he's as good as his buddies here make out, why would other FE'ers reject him?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 04:20:09 PM »
I mean, don't you ever wonder why the other site don't want him? If he's as good as his buddies here make out, why would other FE'ers reject him?

Did it ever occur to you that the other site does not like me and I don't like them for something other than my moderation skills? 

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markjo

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 04:36:54 PM »
Thank you SCG!

But, I see Markjos point - if I were hit by a bus tomorrow we would be in trouble.
Come now John, you show up out of the blue and are active for a while but then disappear for weeks or months at a time.   And when is the last time that Daniel has done much of anything for this site, let alone his beloved society?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 04:44:25 PM »
Thank you SCG!

But, I see Markjos point - if I were hit by a bus tomorrow we would be in trouble.
Come now John, you show up out of the blue and are active for a while but then disappear for weeks or months at a time.   And when is the last time that Daniel has done much of anything for this site, let alone his beloved society?

Daniel has paid to host this fine forum for a very long time, isn't that something?

I don't understand why people who hate the way this forum is run don't just leave and hang out on the other site. The internet is big enough for both.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Jack

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 06:53:19 PM »
Exactly, SCG. It's perhaps unfair to say Daniel has done next to nothing to this site when he's the one paying the bills. Now, we're doing just fine without them, and they're doing just fine without us. Reunification is pointless.

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markjo

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Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 07:15:24 PM »
Exactly, SCG. It's perhaps unfair to say Daniel has done next to nothing to this site when he's the one paying the bills.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really have anything against Daniel.  My boss at work is a lot like him.  He's a really nice guy who pays the bills and shows up for about 15 minutes every few weeks or so, basically leaving the rest of us to run the day to day operations.  Of course it also means that he's not always around to make timely decisions either.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Pongo

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 07:17:52 PM »
I split these posts because I thought this topic deserved its own thread.

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Blanko

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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 07:43:32 PM »
I mean, don't you ever wonder why the other site don't want him? If he's as good as his buddies here make out, why would other FE'ers reject him?

If you're really interested, the reason jroa was demodded (and will never be remodded as long as we have control over it) on our site was because he sexually harassed several of our users and on multiple occasions used his powers to create threads in Announcements to spout crude insults at our users (including myself). We were extremely patient with him. People in the real world get fired for much less.

Now, if your side wants to continue shielding a predator, that's your pregorative - but, for the sake of honest discourse, it's better for all of you to know what you're dealing with.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2016, 09:02:48 PM »
What in the world is even the point of this thread?  Who cares what the non-moderator members of this website think about the merger?  The all-powerful mod team has already secretly considered and rejected the proposal.  Obviously, that's as far as it goes.  There's no need to pretend that what the dirty peasants might think will have any bearing on the subject.  They can't even be trusted to know what it is that the mods might be planning at any time, let alone voice an opinion on it!

Everyone get back to whatever you were doing before viewing this thread.  The mod team knows what's best for you.  Do not question their secret decisions.

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John Davis

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 07:53:00 AM »
What in the world is even the point of this thread?  Who cares what the non-moderator members of this website think about the merger?
We care. Hence the thread.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2016, 10:26:08 AM »
I mean, don't you ever wonder why the other site don't want him? If he's as good as his buddies here make out, why would other FE'ers reject him?

Did it ever occur to you that the other site does not like me and I don't like them for something other than my moderation skills?

Of course. They probably dislike you for the same reasons that I dislike you, which are too rude to post in this thread and would be classed as a personal attack.
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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2016, 10:49:29 AM »
Meada.  Quepasso? 

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Pongo

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2016, 12:49:52 PM »
Let me summarize the issue and detail what we are discussing so everyone is on the same page.

A few years ago, many users of our storied forms decided to split off and form their own Flat Earth Society. They were unhappy with how the forums were ran and their concerns were valid. Our administration here was more concerned with other aspects of the Flat Earth Movement. While they acknowledge that the forums were (and still are) an important part of the society, in their eyes it's not, and has never been, the most important part.  The people that left saw, as I believe many of you do, the forums as the most important aspect. It's a place to debate, learn, and perhaps above all else, socialize.

In the time since our division, we've made great strides in addressing and fixing many issues; things like load times comes to mind. Regardless, there has been talk of offering the other site near-complete (if not complete) control of the forums and allowing our administration to focus on other facets of the society like raising awareness though articles, interviews, books, and more. By outsourcing control of the forums to them, it allows our current leadership to focus on more important issues to the Flat Earth Movement as a whole. We would like to hear everyone's opinion on what we consider to be "outsourcing the forums." 

Advantages
  • First and most importantly is the unification of the user base. Together we are one society with a diverse collection of flat-earth discussion and many friendships forged in the lower fora.
  • Increased moderation. Together we will have more mods on around the clock.
  • Post count retention. Your posting history will be preserved and enriched if you've posted on both sites.
  • Strengthening the movement. United we stand, and all.

Disadvantages:
  • Moderation and Administration changes would be made. There will be a discussion of who to keep and at what title, but Jroa would almost certainly be removed as a moderator. He has provided years of loyal service to us, but he leaves the other site with a bad taste in their mouths.
  • Adaptation to new rules and policies. The vast majority overlap, but there are some minor differences.
  • Scary new frontiers. With all endeavors comes the unknown and unforeseeable.

Please remember that we don't have to see this as an "us versus them" debate. We all came here or there for a common reason; the discussion or intrigue of the flat-earth.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2016, 12:52:30 PM »
What in the world is even the point of this thread?  Who cares what the non-moderator members of this website think about the merger?
We care. Hence the thread.

At least we are having the conversation on this website. The first time around Wilmore and Daniel were only interested in the opinions of the defectors.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 01:17:52 PM »
You forgot to list "having to put up with Thork, Parsifal and Monterey Bay Peeping Tom Bishop" as disdvantages.
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John Davis

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2016, 01:41:41 PM »
I'd like to second Thork as a disadvantage. If jroa leaves a bad taste in their mouths, it barely touches the taste Thork leaves in all of our mouths. I would expect him to have no dealings with the Society at all as he is a ridiculous.

Parsifal I haven't had any issues with.

What in the world is even the point of this thread?  Who cares what the non-moderator members of this website think about the merger?
We care. Hence the thread.

At least we are having the conversation on this website. The first time around Wilmore and Daniel were only interested in the opinions of the defectors.
All I care about right now are the opinions of our users. More so than the moderation staff even, though their say matters too. Daniel also has had a change of heart and really doesn't care much either way - "The more groups the merrier" I believe he said.

Thank you SCG!

But, I see Markjos point - if I were hit by a bus tomorrow we would be in trouble.
Come now John, you show up out of the blue and are active for a while but then disappear for weeks or months at a time.   And when is the last time that Daniel has done much of anything for this site, let alone his beloved society?
Yes Markjo. That's why I pointed it out - what happens if I get hit by a bus.  I thought I was being rather fair pointing that out.

Other than weekly meetings with me to plan various stuff coming up for the Society, Daniel also spent the majority of his vacation helping me sort out the new site stuff (including the server you are enjoying) and otherwise contributing.

I don't really understand the mentality that validates the statement: Since Daniel is the President of the Society .: he should be active on the forums.  Because I don't see that being the case on really any societies site I know of, though I'm sure there are a few counter-examples.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 02:18:26 PM by John Davis »
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Pongo

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2016, 03:01:18 PM »
You forgot to list "having to put up with Thork, Parsifal and Monterey Bay Peeping Tom Bishop" as disdvantages.

Yes, thank you. Please bring up any more advantages and disadvantages you have. It's difficult for any one person to see them all. This one especially so for me as I have no issues with the people you listed.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 03:51:10 PM »

Advantages
  • First and most importantly is the unification of the user base. Together we are one society with a diverse collection of flat-earth discussion and many friendships forged in the lower fora.
  • Increased moderation. Together we will have more mods on around the clock.
  • Post count retention. Your posting history will be preserved and enriched if you've posted on both sites.
  • Strengthening the movement. United we stand, and all.

Disadvantages:
  • Moderation and Administration changes would be made. There will be a discussion of who to keep and at what title, but Jroa would almost certainly be removed as a moderator. He has provided years of loyal service to us, but he leaves the other site with a bad taste in their mouths.
  • Adaptation to new rules and policies. The vast majority overlap, but there are some minor differences.
  • Scary new frontiers. With all endeavors comes the unknown and unforeseeable.



Re Advantages:
1) How is "unification of the user base" an advantage? There's nothing stopping people on either site from posting here or there OR here and there.  I realize it was kind of a big deal when the split first happened because this website was a bit dead for awhile, but the upper forums are as busy as ever now. People on the internet come and go all the time.
2) The moderation of this site could easily be increased. (pls don't choose crappy mods, tho)
3) Are the posts in danger of disappearing?
4) They are forums, a movement can (and probably should) have more than one place to discuss things.

Re Disadvantages:
1) I think you're understating this one a bit. They want to be in charge of the site.
2) Their rules aren't as convoluted as the ones here. I would count their rules as an advantage.
3) Other forums are scary!  :P

The only thing they want is everything, but they want people on this side to think they're the ones with everything to give. They want to dictate the terms of the merger. Give us the database, but we won't take it unless you do all these things...  ::)

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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hoppy

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 07:14:01 PM »
I like the reunification idea. The more regular users that we have on one site , the less of a fringe movement we appear. Some of the users on the other site have a lot of FE knowledge and can answer questions well, especially to the noobs. Neither site is all that it could be, I think together we would be stronger.
 John, thanks for getting this site running better, faster speed and all that.
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Re: Re: Is it normal for Moderators to be so immature?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 07:48:13 PM »
Thank you SCG!

But, I see Markjos point - if I were hit by a bus tomorrow we would be in trouble.
Come now John, you show up out of the blue and are active for a while but then disappear for weeks or months at a time.   And when is the last time that Daniel has done much of anything for this site, let alone his beloved society?

Daniel has paid to host this fine forum for a very long time, isn't that something?

I don't understand why people who hate the way this forum is run don't just leave and hang out on the other site. The internet is big enough for both.

Because hate is the law.
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Jack

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 10:11:17 PM »
They've already said they want to keep the various services on their site unchanged, so it's clear the only thing they want from us is control over our forum. We might end up gaining almost nothing from reunification, John. I still don't see any problems with both sites going their separate ways; they're doing fine on their own.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2016, 12:45:41 AM »
Do what is in your best interest.

Will your core values be maintained?
Will you be surrendering control of your empire?
Will it be a marriage or a takeover?

What do you get out of the merger?
What do you want out of the merger?
What do you expect from the merger?

Can you trust your partner?
DO you trust your prospective partner?

Membership will adapt.
They already provide you with nothing.

These are upper management decisions.

Do what is in your best interest.





RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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Blanko

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 08:01:21 AM »
They've already said they want to keep the various services on their site unchanged, so it's clear the only thing they want from us is control over our forum. We might end up gaining almost nothing from reunification, John. I still don't see any problems with both sites going their separate ways; they're doing fine on their own.

Actually, you would have everything to gain and nothing to lose. You would get our superior services, our superior technical expertise and active administration, our superior design and branding, and you would no longer have to worry about falling behind in SEO and social media reach. All this without putting in any effort on your part.

All we want out of this is a unified userbase, which I'm sure most can agree is a good thing for everyone. If that's not something you want, fine - we'll eventually overtake this site on our own. The reason we're reaching out is because we care about the society as a whole.

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John Davis

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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2016, 08:24:22 AM »
Your social media reach is a joke, to be frank. Thork just friended every foreign user on twitter. Look at your follow/following ratio.  Its a good thing they can't read english, because just weeks ago he insulted all non-english speaking internet users. You know, cause Thork. That and his constant threats to folks that they have made " a very powerful enemy."  If there is interest, this would be a point that would need to be negotiated.

Facebook we are steadily growing faster than yours and we have more reach to start with better content posts and better engagement. We have a very active community on facebook, that dwarfs even your own sites userbase.

Your technical expertise does not seem better.  Unless you happen to have somebody with experience working on Enterprise level sites in E-Commerce, let alone the contacts that come with that. Though expanding our team would be an advantage, due to the possibility of me getting hit by a bus.

This is simply our first iteration of branding, and the next I'll likely hand off to my design firm https://www.facebook.com/mjdesignbureau/ and http://mjdesignbureau.com (excuse the site, we are busy enough that we seldom can justify updating or even working on it in the first place).  However, this is a possible benefit if folks like yours better. Really though as we are working on every aspect iteratively, nobody should fall in love with our current branding as its really just a temporary theme to allow for growth into our new technologies.  Likely, I'll get my business to help with some of the tech aspects too if this merger doesn't happen.


Our services are bettering each day and soon that argument will be moot. Especially if I move us over to a cluster. which is on the roadmap. Not mentioning our unannounced plans.

As far as SEO, you'll never beat us. You guys knew that when you bought your domain, and I think you still know that now. Once our wiki goes, you need to be asking yourselves what kind of effect that will have on your ranking.

Really the benefit I see are the users, the Society itself, and the brand.

Edit:  You are also better are running forums, but I include this in the users.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 09:01:34 AM by John Davis »
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Re: Opinions on the Merger
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2016, 08:46:50 AM »
I think John nailed it on the head.