Overwhelming support for general relativity.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2016, 07:19:56 AM »
Another question: GR was detected by small errors in the orbit of mercury and partly verified by gravitational lensing. You do neither believe in a heliocentric model nor in gravitational lensing, why do you believe in general relativity?

No, both of those things were attributed to gravity, but no other options were ever explored.  Really, is this the best you can do? 

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2016, 07:30:16 AM »
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but no other options were ever explored
citation needed

You have not yet shown how Newtonian gravity contradicts General relativity.
How does GR support a none infinite edge flat earth model?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2016, 07:43:05 AM »
Quote
but no other options were ever explored
citation needed

You have not yet shown how Newtonian gravity contradicts General relativity.
How does GR support a none infinite edge flat earth model?


You must be confused.  Everyone here, so far, has admitted that GR was developed to correct Newtonian Physics, not expand on it, except you.  Even that Kami guy finally started to agree with me.  You are the only stubborn one left. 

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2016, 07:58:08 AM »
Quote
contradiction
A contradiction is two propositions used in combination where one makes the other impossible. It is something that is A and non-A at the same time. A contradiction, therefore, cannot exist in reality, since existence exists (whereas a contradiction could not possibly exist). In the cognitive process, reaching a contradiction as a conclusion or evaluation of reality is proof of an error in one's thinking.

In the day to day usage of Newtonian physics and General relativity, the difference in accuracy is between the two is too small to notice.

If you used Newtonian physics or General relativity to do calculations for supersonic jet fighters, any construction, or even moon landings, your result will be so close, that they will make no difference.
Yes, there is a difference. But the difference is so small that for only special circumstances does it mean anything. It has no bearing on the way gravity pulls on the earth. Or how the earth would have formed.

So back to my question that you keep avoiding, how does General Relativity allow for a none infinite flat plane earth?

« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:01:06 AM by MaNaeSWolf »

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Master_Evar

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2016, 07:59:10 AM »
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but no other options were ever explored
citation needed

You have not yet shown how Newtonian gravity contradicts General relativity.
How does GR support a none infinite edge flat earth model?


You must be confused.  Everyone here, so far, has admitted that GR was developed to correct Newtonian Physics, not expand on it, except you.  Even that Kami guy finally started to agree with me.  You are the only stubborn one left.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/expand
Quote
verb (used with object)
1.
to increase in extent, size, volume, scope, etc.:
Heat expands most metals. He hopes to expand his company.
2.
to spread or stretch out; unfold:
A bird expands its wings.
3.
to express in fuller form or greater detail; develop:
to expand a short story into a novel.
4.
Mathematics.
to write (a mathematical expression) so as to show the products of its factors.
Compare factor (def 10).
to rewrite (a mathematical expression) as a sum, product, etc., of terms of a particular kind:
to expand a function in a power series.

I think this is what he means by expanding. Small errors is corrected by expressing it in a more complete form, i.e. expanding it. One could say that they expanded it, in order to correct errors.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2016, 08:00:33 AM »
Sorry to intervene, but I still see it as an expansion, since on the small scale newtonian gravity still holds. I would rather say that newtonian gravity is incomplete, not incorrect.
You, on the other hand, are claiming that GR was based on entirely wrong assumptions (heliocentric solar system), yet still is somehow correct.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2016, 08:02:49 AM »
Quote
contradiction
A contradiction is two propositions used in combination where one makes the other impossible. It is something that is A and non-A at the same time. A contradiction, therefore, cannot exist in reality, since existence exists (whereas a contradiction could not possibly exist). In the cognitive process, reaching a contradiction as a conclusion or evaluation of reality is proof of an error in one's thinking.

In the day to day usage of Newtonian physics and General relativity, the difference in accuracy is between the two is too small to notice. As in, if you used Newtonian physics or General relativity to do calculations for supersonic jet fighters, any construction, or even moon landings, your result will be so close, that they will make no difference. Yes, there is a difference, so you are technically correct that they do contradict. But the difference is so small that for only very special circumstances does mean anything.

So back to my question that you keep avoiding, how does General Relativity allow for a none infinite flat plane earth?



You seem to be avoiding the definition of the term Relative.  You keep insisting that we only calculate things like cars driving down the street or jet fighters.  Do you not realize that this is a very localized narrow range?  Take a physics class and get back to us on what percentage of things in the universe happen at this relative scale. 

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2016, 08:07:51 AM »
Sorry to intervene, but I still see it as an expansion, since on the small scale newtonian gravity still holds. I would rather say that newtonian gravity is incomplete, not incorrect.
You, on the other hand, are claiming that GR was based on entirely wrong assumptions (heliocentric solar system), yet still is somehow correct.

Do you seriously think that there are degrees of being incorrect?  You seem to think that some things are more incorrect than other things.  Do you not realize the "incorrect" means "incorrect"? 

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2016, 08:15:55 AM »
Sorry to intervene, but I still see it as an expansion, since on the small scale newtonian gravity still holds. I would rather say that newtonian gravity is incomplete, not incorrect.
You, on the other hand, are claiming that GR was based on entirely wrong assumptions (heliocentric solar system), yet still is somehow correct.

Do you seriously think that there are degrees of being incorrect?  You seem to think that some things are more incorrect than other things.  Do you not realize the "incorrect" means "incorrect"?
Well, by your definition, everything is incorrect then, since we can never describe a process that is 100% the same in reality, we always build models, simplify things and disregard things that produce only a small error. For example, if you calculate gas mileage for a driving car, you do not calculate the coriolis force or the force applied by electromagnetic induction (moving electric charge [car battery] through a magnet field [earth's]), simply because these effects do not really matter. By your definition, these calculations would be wrong, then.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2016, 08:23:06 AM »
jroa, your bouncing around the question. How does general relativity side with a flat earth?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2016, 08:25:43 AM »
Sorry to intervene, but I still see it as an expansion, since on the small scale newtonian gravity still holds. I would rather say that newtonian gravity is incomplete, not incorrect.
You, on the other hand, are claiming that GR was based on entirely wrong assumptions (heliocentric solar system), yet still is somehow correct.

Do you seriously think that there are degrees of being incorrect?  You seem to think that some things are more incorrect than other things.  Do you not realize the "incorrect" means "incorrect"?
Well, by your definition, everything is incorrect then, since we can never describe a process that is 100% the same in reality, we always build models, simplify things and disregard things that produce only a small error. For example, if you calculate gas mileage for a driving car, you do not calculate the coriolis force or the force applied by electromagnetic induction (moving electric charge [car battery] through a magnet field [earth's]), simply because these effects do not really matter. By your definition, these calculations would be wrong, then.

If you were to claim that the sky is green, and then I stated that it is blue, I am not extending your claim, I am countering it.  Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? 

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2016, 08:39:22 AM »
Because it is more like me saying the sky is blue and you saying the sky is in fact marine blue.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2016, 08:44:28 AM »
Jroa, can you answer how general relativity helps prove a flat earth?
Its the main topic I believe.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2016, 08:51:19 AM »
Because it is more like me saying the sky is blue and you saying the sky is in fact marine blue.

So, if we were to flip a coin, and after it lands, you claim that it is heads, but I say that it is tails, then I am extending your claim?  I am trying to sort out your logic. 

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2016, 08:55:14 AM »
General Relativity, and Relativity in general, actually supports the flat Earth theory.

Still waiting for jroa to stop derailing and justify his claim.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2016, 09:04:21 AM »
General Relativity, and Relativity in general, actually supports the flat Earth theory.

Still waiting for jroa to stop derailing and justify his claim.

Have you even studied Special Relativity? 

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2016, 09:14:28 AM »
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Have you even studied Special Relativity? 

Done some reading. Not sure if it can be called "studied" though. Does not matter, if your a pro at it I'm sure you can explain it to a layman.

But the question involved general relativity, not special relativity which is a similar but different topic.



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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2016, 09:16:07 AM »
Quote
Have you even studied Special Relativity? 

Done some reading. Not sure if it can be called "studied" though. Does not matter, if your a pro at it I'm sure you can explain it to a layman.

But the question involved general relativity, not special relativity which is a similar but different topic.




So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? 

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sokarul

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2016, 09:21:01 AM »
Nothing in special or general relativity supports a flat earth.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2016, 09:25:24 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2016, 09:32:20 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.
Okay, let me try to explain. General relativity is based on the einstein equivalence principle, which states that you can not tell the difference whether you are in a point where there is no gravity or whether you are in free fall in a homogenous gravitational field. Whoops. I mentioned gravity. Seems like it has to exist in order for general relativity to be legit.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2016, 09:40:16 AM »
Nothing in special or general relativity supports a flat earth.

Please point out the contradictions. 

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2016, 09:41:10 AM »
Nothing in special or general relativity supports a flat earth.

Please point out the contradictions.
Just did. Literally one post before.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2016, 09:42:36 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.


If you think that GR does not support FET, then please, by all means, present your case for us to examine. 

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.
Okay, let me try to explain. General relativity is based on the einstein equivalence principle, which states that you can not tell the difference whether you are in a point where there is no gravity or whether you are in free fall in a homogenous gravitational field. Whoops. I mentioned gravity. Seems like it has to exist in order for general relativity to be legit.

So, you have never taken into account that something other than "gravity" could cause any variations?  Yeah, you seem like a real scientist to me.  ::)

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2016, 09:45:29 AM »
Oh come on. You got distracted by that?

How goes general relativity support a flat earth?

Here, Ill give this to help you.
Quote
General relativity was Einsteinís theory of gravity, published in 1915, which extended special relativity to take into account non-inertial frames of reference ó areas that are accelerating with respect to each other. General relativity takes the form of field equations, describing the curvature of space-time and the distribution of matter throughout space-time. The effects of matter and space-time on each other are what we perceive as gravity.
simple explanation

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Kami

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2016, 09:46:31 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.
Okay, let me try to explain. General relativity is based on the einstein equivalence principle, which states that you can not tell the difference whether you are in a point where there is no gravity or whether you are in free fall in a homogenous gravitational field. Whoops. I mentioned gravity. Seems like it has to exist in order for general relativity to be legit.

So, you have never taken into account that something other than "gravity" could cause any variations?  Yeah, you seem like a real scientist to me.  ::)
Certainly, there are many effects.
But GR is built to describe an attractive gravity between masses. If you propose that this is not true, the whole concept of GR must be totally pointless to you.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2016, 09:47:35 AM »
Oh come on. You got distracted by that?

How goes general relativity support a flat earth?

Here, Ill give this to help you.
Quote
General relativity was Einsteinís theory of gravity, published in 1915, which extended special relativity to take into account non-inertial frames of reference ó areas that are accelerating with respect to each other. General relativity takes the form of field equations, describing the curvature of space-time and the distribution of matter throughout space-time. The effects of matter and space-time on each other are what we perceive as gravity.
simple explanation

You and Neil and markjo are the ones harping on about homogeneous gravity.  If you don't like the topic, then tell them to stop, not me. 

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2016, 09:49:38 AM »
"So, then, your question is kind of moot, then? "
No it is not.
You made a claim, and I am asking you to substantiate it.
And if your smarter than me, then it should be no trouble for you to simplify your explanations.
But I am sure I will be able to keep up.

Further, this is a public forum, meaning, even if I do not understand, other people are reading and learning. You are not just talking to me.
Okay, let me try to explain. General relativity is based on the einstein equivalence principle, which states that you can not tell the difference whether you are in a point where there is no gravity or whether you are in free fall in a homogenous gravitational field. Whoops. I mentioned gravity. Seems like it has to exist in order for general relativity to be legit.

So, you have never taken into account that something other than "gravity" could cause any variations?  Yeah, you seem like a real scientist to me.  ::)
Certainly, there are many effects.
But GR is built to describe an attractive gravity between masses. If you propose that this is not true, the whole concept of GR must be totally pointless to you.

GR was built to fill in gaps that the rest of your science, in progression, left holes in.  Are there holes in GR?  Of course there is, but that does not take away from the fact that it did plug holes in Newtonian Physics. 

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Overwhelming support for general relativity.
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2016, 09:52:56 AM »
General Relativity, and Relativity in general, actually supports the flat Earth theory.

If you claim as above I am genuinely interested in how you got to that conclusion.
Just substantiate your claim. Or change your views on it. Either is fine.
Your just saying how everything is wrong, but I am yet to see you make a substantiated positive claim.