Poll

Does Papa Legba understand newtons third law?

No
67 (87%)
Yes
10 (13%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Newtons third law

  • 1644 Replies
  • 213163 Views
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1590 on: July 19, 2016, 02:45:45 PM »
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
Once you stretch out there's no coming back. that's it. You stay where you are.
And what if you grab their hand, and pull back in? There is still "no leverage" as you would say, so do your hands phase through eachother?
How do you grab their hand when you are fingertip to fingertip?
Right before you become fingertip to fingertip, you grab hands, then pull back in.

Also, what is so special about the molecules in the atmosphere that all other molecules don't have?
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1591 on: July 19, 2016, 06:50:37 PM »
  ;D This is more entertaining than the old "Goon Show"  ;D

Guess who's the goon?

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1592 on: July 19, 2016, 09:05:23 PM »
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
Once you stretch out there's no coming back. that's it. You stay where you are.

No, once they start moving they keep moving, Newton's First Law, also common sense and observation.

Once an ice skater starts moving, with very little friction between skates and the ice they keep moving for a long distance.

In the absence of friction (or other forces) once an object starts moving, it keeps moving!

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1593 on: July 20, 2016, 12:27:39 AM »
No, once they start moving they keep moving, Newton's First Law, also common sense and observation.
You show me where you observed this happening?

Once an ice skater starts moving, with very little friction between skates and the ice they keep moving for a long distance.
They keep moving for a long distance because they had leverage to gain the motion against friction. Take a look at how an ice skater gains acceleration.
In your space you have nothing like friction. No friction means no leverage. It's that simple if we have to argue your space brainwashing.

In the absence of friction (or other forces) once an object starts moving, it keeps moving!
And I'll say again. How do you get something to move in a frictionless environment. It cannot be done. It's just fantasy for crying out loud.


*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1594 on: July 20, 2016, 12:43:51 AM »
Can you tell me how you reached those stupid self contradicting conclusions?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1595 on: July 20, 2016, 12:48:49 AM »
Can you tell me how you reached those stupid self contradicting conclusions?
By having the ability not to act robotic and swallow the utter tripe that's dished out for the crap you buy into readily and eagerly.

Oh and there's nothing self contradicting. They're just words you people use to somehow make out that you're smart. You're gullible and naive in the extreme. You people are close to beyond help in terms of ability to think for yourselves.

.

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1596 on: July 20, 2016, 12:59:28 AM »
No, once they start moving they keep moving, Newton's First Law, also common sense and observation.
You show me where you observed this happening?

Throw something. It doesn't stop moving as soon as it leaves your hand, it keeps moving until it hits something solid.

In the absence of friction (or other forces) once an object starts moving, it keeps moving!
And I'll say again. How do you get something to move in a frictionless environment. It cannot be done. It's just fantasy for crying out loud.

In your example of two people pushing each other in space, you acknowledged (I think) that they do start to move up to the point where they are at arms length. So given that they have started to move, what will stop them moving?

To stop them moving requires a force and there's no force available in the vacuum of space so they will move apart forever.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1597 on: July 20, 2016, 01:09:06 AM »
Throw something. It doesn't stop moving as soon as it leaves your hand, it keeps moving until it hits something solid.
So we're talking about your frictionless space and you come back with throwing something in an atmosphere?
Ok, show me where you can throw something in an atmosphere where it will just keep going without something arresting its motion.


Also show me an environment like your space where you can actually throw something that will somehow keep moving away from you forever.

If you can't, then don't come back with nonsense like you just did.


In your example of two people pushing each other in space, you acknowledged (I think) that they do start to move up to the point where they are at arms length. So given that they have started to move, what will stop them moving?

To stop them moving requires a force and there's no force available in the vacuum of space so they will move apart forever.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1598 on: July 20, 2016, 01:12:18 AM »
Can you tell me how you reached those stupid self contradicting conclusions?
By having the ability not to act robotic and swallow the utter tripe that's dished out for the crap you buy into readily and eagerly.

Oh and there's nothing self contradicting. They're just words you people use to somehow make out that you're smart. You're gullible and naive in the extreme. You people are close to beyond help in terms of ability to think for yourselves.

.

So you can't tell me. You could have just said that your self contradictory ideas have no foundation and you have no reason to believe them.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1599 on: July 20, 2016, 01:14:41 AM »
Can you tell me how you reached those stupid self contradicting conclusions?
By having the ability not to act robotic and swallow the utter tripe that's dished out for the crap you buy into readily and eagerly.

Oh and there's nothing self contradicting. They're just words you people use to somehow make out that you're smart. You're gullible and naive in the extreme. You people are close to beyond help in terms of ability to think for yourselves.

.

So you can't tell me. You could have just said that your self contradictory ideas have no foundation and you have no reason to believe them.
I'm bored with you. You disappear from this point on. Whine away all you want but you can spend it trying to do it with others. Not me.

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1600 on: July 20, 2016, 01:41:18 AM »
Throw something. It doesn't stop moving as soon as it leaves your hand, it keeps moving until it hits something solid.
So we're talking about your frictionless space and you come back with throwing something in an atmosphere?

I was illustrating that our general experience is that moving things keep moving until something stops them. Why should it be any different in space? Is it the atmosphere that keeps things moving?

Ok, show me where you can throw something in an atmosphere where it will just keep going without something arresting its motion.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I agree that things stop moving when other things get in their way.

Also show me an environment like your space where you can actually throw something that will somehow keep moving away from you forever.

If there's nothing to stop something moving, it will keep moving forever. The reality of space is such that it will run into something else eventually, but that doesn't negate the point.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1601 on: July 20, 2016, 02:10:22 AM »
I was illustrating that our general experience is that moving things keep moving until something stops them. Why should it be any different in space? Is it the atmosphere that keeps things moving?
Yes it's the atmosphere that keeps things moving. In conjunction with energy applied to keep whatever object is moving against CONSTANT friction for and against. It has to be like this for anything to move.
There is never any free movement...EVER.


I'm not sure what your point is here. I agree that things stop moving when other things get in their way.

As I said, there's always something getting in the way. It doesn't have to be a solid object to our vision. Just atmospheric friction stops all objects.

If there's nothing to stop something moving, it will keep moving forever.
This is fantasy land or space or whatever you want it to be.
For nothing to stop something moving means there's nothing to start it moving. Get your head around it and you'll understand it.



The reality of space is such that it will run into something else eventually, but that doesn't negate the point.
There is no reality of space but the space that was made up for people like you...and me at one time.
TV shows and bullshit documentaries have convinced you that space is some kind of environment that you can simply float in forever.

Even if we take space as being an environment that makes a person buoyant, you still need a medium for that to happen. It cannot be empty space. You also have to fit that medium in order to appear to float. A large helium balloon with you in a cage under it will make you appear to float. A hot air balloon will do likewise.

The point is, it's a medium.

In fantasy space you have a vacuum as you are told. You have no means of propulsion. You have no gain from effort.
Remember when you were told that a helicopter would not work in a space vacuum?
It's the same scenario with EVERYTHING, because there is no leverage. there is nothing to push against to give leverage to create a reaction  to that.



Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1602 on: July 20, 2016, 02:51:06 AM »
And I'll just add this:
If a rockets engine requires leverage against atmosphere to create thrust. Why do they gain thrust as they gain altitude?

Surely it would loose thrust as the atmosphere gets less and less dense and thus less molecules to create the leverage against.

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1603 on: July 20, 2016, 02:58:37 AM »
I was illustrating that our general experience is that moving things keep moving until something stops them. Why should it be any different in space? Is it the atmosphere that keeps things moving?
Yes it's the atmosphere that keeps things moving. In conjunction with energy applied to keep whatever object is moving against CONSTANT friction for and against. It has to be like this for anything to move.
There is never any free movement...EVER.

Okay, if you think that it is the atmosphere that keeps things moving then that explains why you don't think things would keep moving in a vacuum. I don't agree with you, however. My experience is that the atmosphere slows things down rather than keeps them moving.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I agree that things stop moving when other things get in their way.
As I said, there's always something getting in the way. It doesn't have to be a solid object to our vision. Just atmospheric friction stops all objects.

There seems to be a contradiction here in that the atmosphere keeps things moving but also slows them down. I'd agree that the atmosphere slows things down but not that it is required to keep things moving.

If there's nothing to stop something moving, it will keep moving forever.
This is fantasy land or space or whatever you want it to be.
For nothing to stop something moving means there's nothing to start it moving. Get your head around it and you'll understand it.

But things can start moving by being pushed or by pushing on something else. You appeared to agree to this with your example of two people pushing against each other in space.

My contention is that because they have started moving they will keep moving after they are no longer pushing each other. I observe that things that are moving keep moving until something stops them. It doesn't make sense to me that the atmosphere plays a role in keeping things moving as it appears to do the opposite, i.e. slow things down.

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1604 on: July 20, 2016, 05:49:16 AM »
New topic.

Poll
Does sceptimatic understand any of Newton's Laws?

*

AdamSK

  • 229
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1605 on: July 20, 2016, 05:54:15 AM »
The idea that atmospheric pressure is the cause of things falling, not gravity, is disproved in a number of ways - not the least of which is force-mass equivalence measurements done with springs or pulleys.

But, as usual, it is hard to respond properly to a model when the person who believes the model refuses to share the details.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1606 on: July 20, 2016, 06:05:26 AM »
Can you tell me how you reached those stupid self contradicting conclusions?
By having the ability not to act robotic and swallow the utter tripe that's dished out for the crap you buy into readily and eagerly.

Oh and there's nothing self contradicting. They're just words you people use to somehow make out that you're smart. You're gullible and naive in the extreme. You people are close to beyond help in terms of ability to think for yourselves.

.

So you can't tell me. You could have just said that your self contradictory ideas have no foundation and you have no reason to believe them.
I'm bored with you. You disappear from this point on. Whine away all you want but you can spend it trying to do it with others. Not me.

Good. Now I'm going to shut myself inside my room and cry. When I finish crying, I will contemplate the countless times you've said that without actually meaning it.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1607 on: July 20, 2016, 06:09:44 AM »
Inertia exists.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1608 on: July 20, 2016, 06:37:59 AM »
And I'll just add this:
If a rockets engine requires leverage against atmosphere to create thrust. Why do they gain thrust as they gain altitude?

Surely it would loose thrust as the atmosphere gets less and less dense and thus less molecules to create the leverage against.
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

*

AdamSK

  • 229
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1609 on: July 20, 2016, 08:48:21 AM »
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

Vertical push by what?

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1610 on: July 20, 2016, 09:05:45 AM »
I will ask this again, scepti.

What is so special about the molecules in the atmosphere rather than the molecules in everything else? Why can leverage only be gained from the fluid atmosphere rather than a solid surface, like your friend?

Also, what are the laws of physics in your model? Since you obviously don't follow Newton's laws.

I have asked you this 3 times now, and you haven't given an answer, so I can only assume that you have no idea what you are talking about and are too closed-minded to allow reason to win in your mind.
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1611 on: July 20, 2016, 09:54:31 AM »
And I'll just add this:
If a rockets engine requires leverage against atmosphere to create thrust. Why do they gain thrust as they gain altitude?

Surely it would loose thrust as the atmosphere gets less and less dense and thus less molecules to create the leverage against.
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

Apart from air density at 80,000 metres is over 1 hundred thousand times less than ground level.

All vacuum engines are tested in vacuum chambers. And they all give out more thrust in a vacuum than in atmosphere.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1612 on: July 20, 2016, 12:05:04 PM »
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

Vertical push by what?
Burning fuel into atmosphere.

*

AdamSK

  • 229
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1613 on: July 20, 2016, 12:06:57 PM »
Burning fuel into atmosphere.

The burning fuel is what pushes them?  Or the atmosphere?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1614 on: July 20, 2016, 12:11:41 PM »
I will ask this again, scepti.

What is so special about the molecules in the atmosphere rather than the molecules in everything else?
Nothing. They're all part of our living organisms on Earth in our cell.


Why can leverage only be gained from the fluid atmosphere rather than a solid surface, like your friend?
Leverage can be gained from any medium, whether that's water, atmosphere or solids. It just can't happen in your space vacuum.
Also, what are the laws of physics in your model? Since you obviously don't follow Newton's laws.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is the DENPRESSURE law.

I have asked you this 3 times now, and you haven't given an answer, so I can only assume that you have no idea what you are talking about and are too closed-minded to allow reason to win in your mind.
Assume what you want but take notice of what's being said in the first place , then you will have no need to type the above.

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1615 on: July 20, 2016, 12:14:25 PM »
And I'll just add this:
If a rockets engine requires leverage against atmosphere to create thrust. Why do they gain thrust as they gain altitude?

Surely it would loose thrust as the atmosphere gets less and less dense and thus less molecules to create the leverage against.
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

Apart from air density at 80,000 metres is over 1 hundred thousand times less than ground level.

All vacuum engines are tested in vacuum chambers. And they all give out more thrust in a vacuum than in atmosphere.
How in the hell can you test a vacuum engine inside a vacuum chamber without it ceasing to become a vacuum chamber?

Also, what the hell is a vacuum engine?

What is thrust?...Explain what thrust is and how you gain it from your vacuum chamber.


*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1616 on: July 20, 2016, 12:15:41 PM »
Burning fuel into atmosphere.

The burning fuel is what pushes them?  Or the atmosphere?
Do you know what back draft is? If you do then explain it in your own words in simple form. Explain why it happens.

*

AdamSK

  • 229
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1617 on: July 20, 2016, 12:17:23 PM »
Do you know what back draft is? If you do then explain it in your own words in simple form. Explain why it happens.

I don't know what back draft is.  What is it?

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1618 on: July 20, 2016, 12:23:41 PM »
Burning fuel into atmosphere.

The burning fuel is what pushes them?  Or the atmosphere?
Do you know what back draft is? If you do then explain it in your own words in simple form. Explain why it happens.

If this were true then you would see exhaust clouds slowing down as they exit the rocket. This clearly doesn't happen. 
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1619 on: July 20, 2016, 12:40:27 PM »
And I'll just add this:
If a rockets engine requires leverage against atmosphere to create thrust. Why do they gain thrust as they gain altitude?

Surely it would loose thrust as the atmosphere gets less and less dense and thus less molecules to create the leverage against.
They don't gain thrust as they gain altitude. They lose thrust but keep a normal speed due to fuel burn, making the rocket lighter with every vertical push into and against, atmosphere.

Apart from air density at 80,000 metres is over 1 hundred thousand times less than ground level.

All vacuum engines are tested in vacuum chambers. And they all give out more thrust in a vacuum than in atmosphere.
How in the hell can you test a vacuum engine inside a vacuum chamber without it ceasing to become a vacuum chamber?

Also, what the hell is a vacuum engine?

What is thrust?...Explain what thrust is and how you gain it from your vacuum chamber.

They have tested a variety of rocket engines at plumb brook. It is the largest vacuum chamber in the world. Used to test rockets at simulated altitude and has been used to test rockets in a vacuum aswell.

Thrust is equal to:
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae
m dot=mass flow rate
ve=exhaust velocity
pe=exhaust pressure
po=Atmospheric pressure
Ae=Area

The main reason it functions better in a vacuum is. Ve (exhaust velocity) There is no/little back pressure restriction on the exhaust so exhaust mass can flow easier and faster in a vacuum resulting in a higher thrust.

The reason why it is called a vacuum engine is the Ae or (nozzle area) is much larger than an atmospheric engine. The reasoning is because a rocket nozzle is most efficent when nozzle pressure is equal to external (atmospheric pressure). They are designed to have the largest area nozzle possible without adding too much mass to the craft in a vacuum situation. This is to keep the nozzle pressure as close to zero and as efficient as it possibly can in a vacuum.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 12:44:13 PM by TylerJRB »