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Does Papa Legba understand newtons third law?

No
67 (87%)
Yes
10 (13%)

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Newtons third law

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1560 on: July 19, 2016, 01:36:32 AM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 01:26:53 AM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 19, 2016, 01:22:19 AM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 12:42:36 AM
Do you mean that water talks to dead spirits?


Not after it just took a bullet.

It's probably a bit pissed off right now.

Studies show that 99 out of 100 mediums who took a bullet now require the aid of one of their colleagues to ever talk again.


I suspect that 1 out of 100 are responsible for the shootings.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1561 on: July 19, 2016, 05:16:15 AM »
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 19, 2016, 01:36:32 AM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 01:26:53 AM
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 19, 2016, 01:22:19 AM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 12:42:36 AM
Do you mean that water talks to dead spirits?


Not after it just took a bullet.

It's probably a bit pissed off right now.

Studies show that 99 out of 100 mediums who took a bullet now require the aid of one of their colleagues to ever talk again.


I suspect that 1 out of 100 are responsible for the shootings.

The fortune teller market is a competitive one, such incidents are bound to happen.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1562 on: July 19, 2016, 08:14:53 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 18, 2016, 10:57:54 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 18, 2016, 09:36:12 PM
So far, Papa definitely doesn't understand Newton's third law. And I am not sure if it will be possible to teach him. Maybe if we do it in small steps...

Papa Legba, if you were to fire a gun in space, would it recoil?
No it wouldn't. It wouldn't even fire.
It actually would fire, since gunpowder is self-oxidizing. So, would it recoil?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1563 on: July 19, 2016, 09:11:18 AM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 08:14:53 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 18, 2016, 10:57:54 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 18, 2016, 09:36:12 PM
So far, Papa definitely doesn't understand Newton's third law. And I am not sure if it will be possible to teach him. Maybe if we do it in small steps...

Papa Legba, if you were to fire a gun in space, would it recoil?
No it wouldn't. It wouldn't even fire.
It actually would fire, since gunpowder is self-oxidizing. So, would it recoil?
It wouldn't fire in your space, so it certainly wouldn't recoil.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1564 on: July 19, 2016, 09:33:54 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 09:11:18 AM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 08:14:53 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 18, 2016, 10:57:54 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 18, 2016, 09:36:12 PM
So far, Papa definitely doesn't understand Newton's third law. And I am not sure if it will be possible to teach him. Maybe if we do it in small steps...

Papa Legba, if you were to fire a gun in space, would it recoil?
No it wouldn't. It wouldn't even fire.
It actually would fire, since gunpowder is self-oxidizing. So, would it recoil?
It wouldn't fire in your space, so it certainly wouldn't recoil.
It actualy would fire, but because you are being stingy, I'll modify the question.

If you were to fire a spring-loaded ball bearing in space, would your gun recoil?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1565 on: July 19, 2016, 09:49:58 AM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 09:11:18 AM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 08:14:53 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 18, 2016, 10:57:54 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 18, 2016, 09:36:12 PM
So far, Papa definitely doesn't understand Newton's third law. And I am not sure if it will be possible to teach him. Maybe if we do it in small steps...

Papa Legba, if you were to fire a gun in space, would it recoil?
No it wouldn't. It wouldn't even fire.
It actually would fire, since gunpowder is self-oxidizing. So, would it recoil?
It wouldn't fire in your space, so it certainly wouldn't recoil.
It actualy would fire, but because you are being stingy, I'll modify the question.

If you were to fire a spring-loaded ball bearing in space, would your gun recoil?
Nope. The ball bearing would be sitting at the end of the spring inside the gun.

Obviously we are assuming the space you adhere to.

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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1566 on: July 19, 2016, 09:52:41 AM »
So you are saying springs won't work in space either?
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Pezevenk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1567 on: July 19, 2016, 10:09:06 AM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
So you are saying springs won't work in space either?

Scepti doesn't believe in space. He believes in a different type of "space" which has really weird rules and he has absolutely no evidence for it.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1568 on: July 19, 2016, 10:10:30 AM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
So you are saying springs won't work in space either?
Realistically, if space was what you said then nothing would work in it. However I'm allowing you the fantasy of space being a sort of workable vacuum.

Yeah I know it's nonsense but there you go.

Anyway you have no atmospheric force nor resistance, just the force of the spring and the ball bearing.
All the spring can do is recoil but the ball bearing simply moves with the spring. It stays on that spring.
All you end up with is a longer spring with a ball bearing on the end.

Nothing goes anywhere.

Confused?

Imagine you supposedly floating in space and opposite you is your friend. You both face each other with palms touching each others palms with elbows bent.
You now try to push each other away.

You find that you both manage to extend your arms to their full stretch but end up with palms touching , only this time with extended arms. Why?

Because neither of you have any leverage to do anything other than that. You both have nothing to resist your pushes so you get no leverage for your energy.

If you were in atmosphere, your leverage is the atmosphere , so you can both exert energy against that atmosphere due to your body's densities.

Seriously take time out to think on it.

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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1569 on: July 19, 2016, 10:13:19 AM »
How do you know space works in this way?
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Copper Knickers

  • 901
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1570 on: July 19, 2016, 10:28:51 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 10:10:30 AM
Seriously take time out to think on it.

Okay.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 10:10:30 AM
Imagine you supposedly floating in space and opposite you is your friend. You both face each other with palms touching each others palms with elbows bent.
You now try to push each other away.

I've thought about it, and this is what I think would happen:

My friend and I would start to move in opposite directions.
At the point at which our arms are fully extended we would part and continue to move in opposite directions because there would be nothing to stop us moving.
We would continue to move apart forever if nothing got in our way.

This is honestly what I think would happen based on the everyday observation that things keep moving unless something slows them down.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1571 on: July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM »
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1572 on: July 19, 2016, 01:12:48 PM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
But your friend would only be a resisting force against you if he has leverage.

Imagine you and your friend sitting or standing on a floor. Your leverage is the atmosphere clamping you to the floor. Basically the friction of your feet and the atmosphere around you means you have LEVERAGE against your friends resistant leverage  and vice versa.
You can now both exert arm energy to PUSH each other away with a certain amount of force because you have that friction grip of the floor.

In your space you have absolutely none of this, other than your bent arms against each other. You both cannot exert any pushing force to propel you away from each other. All you can do is straighten your arms out against each other and that's it.
You go nowhere and you can at best end up with touching middle fingers because that's your lot for effort.
Basically you cancel each other out and that applies to ANYTHING in your space.
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1573 on: July 19, 2016, 01:24:16 PM »
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
For some odd reason or other, Scepti thinks that resistance initiates motion rather than inhibits it.  I guess Scepti has his own unique concept of resistance too.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1574 on: July 19, 2016, 01:28:36 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
But your friend would only be a resisting force against you if he has leverage.

Imagine you and your friend sitting or standing on a floor. Your leverage is the atmosphere clamping you to the floor. Basically the friction of your feet and the atmosphere around you means you have LEVERAGE against your friends resistant leverage  and vice versa.
You can now both exert arm energy to PUSH each other away with a certain amount of force because you have that friction grip of the floor.

In your space you have absolutely none of this, other than your bent arms against each other. You both cannot exert any pushing force to propel you away from each other. All you can do is straighten your arms out against each other and that's it.
You go nowhere and you can at best end up with touching middle fingers because that's your lot for effort.
Basically you cancel each other out and that applies to ANYTHING in your space.

I'm not going to go into how broken this whole thing is, BUT I'll say this:

What does the atmosphere have "leverage" on to? How did you arrive at the conclusion that you need "leverage"? Why is your friend not your "leverage"?
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1575 on: July 19, 2016, 01:39:31 PM »
Newton's first law: An object in motion will stay in motion, unless acted upon by an external force. Likewise, an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. You and your friend are at rest, and will remain that way unless a force acts on you two. However, you pushing on your friend is an external force. The force is equal for both of you (newton's third law) regardless, both you and your friend are now moving in opposite directions at a constant speed. Your arms outstretch, and your hands disconnect. You are both now moving at constant speeds away from each other, for all eternity, unless some other force acts on you.

Newton's second law: Force=mass*acceleration. If you and your friend each have a mass of 100kg, and you push with 10Newton's of force, relative to a stationary object, your friend will accelerate at .1m/s^2. They will continue to accellerate until you stop pushing, or your hands disconnect. You now have 0 acceleration, but a constant velocity away from your friend (Newton's first law)

Newton's third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When you push your friend, you don't magically stay still. If you give them 10 Newtons of force, you are also receiving 10 Newton's of force. So relative to a stationary point, both you and your friend are accelerating at .1m/s^2 away from each other.

I hope this makes sense.

Air is just a bunch of molecules floating around. You can push on these molecules to get "leverage" airplanes, and helicopters use this to great extent. However, your friend is also a bunch of molecules. What is so special about the molecules in the atmosphere rather than the molecules in your friend? Why are they different?
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AdamSK

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1576 on: July 19, 2016, 01:42:08 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 10:10:30 AM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
So you are saying springs won't work in space either?
Realistically, if space was what you said then nothing would work in it. However I'm allowing you the fantasy of space being a sort of workable vacuum.

Yeah I know it's nonsense but there you go.

Anyway you have no atmospheric force nor resistance, just the force of the spring and the ball bearing.
All the spring can do is recoil but the ball bearing simply moves with the spring. It stays on that spring.
All you end up with is a longer spring with a ball bearing on the end.

Nothing goes anywhere.

Confused?

Imagine you supposedly floating in space and opposite you is your friend. You both face each other with palms touching each others palms with elbows bent.
You now try to push each other away.

You find that you both manage to extend your arms to their full stretch but end up with palms touching , only this time with extended arms. Why?

Because neither of you have any leverage to do anything other than that. You both have nothing to resist your pushes so you get no leverage for your energy.

We are very fortunate that this is not how physics actually works.  In actuality, you can push against bodies to generate acceleration, and thanks to Newton's first law you will continue moving away from each other.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1577 on: July 19, 2016, 01:47:49 PM »
Quote from: markjo on July 19, 2016, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
For some odd reason or other, Scepti thinks that resistance initiates motion rather than inhibits it.  I guess Scepti has his own unique concept of resistance too.
You don't gain motion without leverage. If you can, then tell me how you think it can be done. Try not to use magic.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1578 on: July 19, 2016, 01:51:05 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: markjo on July 19, 2016, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
For some odd reason or other, Scepti thinks that resistance initiates motion rather than inhibits it.  I guess Scepti has his own unique concept of resistance too.
You don't gain motion without leverage. If you can, then tell me how you think it can be done. Try not to use magic.
I know you don't. That is the point of Newton's first law. What you are confused about is that Anything with mass can be used as leverage. Air, water, your friend. It doesn't matter.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1579 on: July 19, 2016, 01:58:21 PM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: markjo on July 19, 2016, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
For some odd reason or other, Scepti thinks that resistance initiates motion rather than inhibits it.  I guess Scepti has his own unique concept of resistance too.
You don't gain motion without leverage. If you can, then tell me how you think it can be done. Try not to use magic.
I know you don't. That is the point of Newton's first law. What you are confused about is that Anything with mass can be used as leverage. Air, water, your friend. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what mass it is if there's no leverage.
They even mess that up in the fake space station.
Can you remember the person with the weights showing us that mass is not worth a toss?
Remember the woman with the hair strand showing us that anything can be moved.
I mean, it was all fake but the crux of the matter is, they use it when they dismiss it when they feel the need and use it whenever they get stumped with space movement in a vacuum, as they tell us.

No leverage = no movement no matter what.
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Copper Knickers

  • 901
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1580 on: July 19, 2016, 02:02:00 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:47:49 PM
You don't gain motion without leverage. If you can, then tell me how you think it can be done. Try not to use magic.

Your earlier post seemed to acknowledge that there would be motion of both people, up to the point that their arms are fully extended:

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 10:10:30 AM
Imagine you supposedly floating in space and opposite you is your friend. You both face each other with palms touching each others palms with elbows bent.
You now try to push each other away.

You find that you both manage to extend your arms to their full stretch but end up with palms touching , only this time with extended arms. Why?

What stops this motion? Things that are moving keep moving unless something stops them. We know this from everyday experience.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1581 on: July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: markjo on July 19, 2016, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Definitely Not Official on July 19, 2016, 10:32:07 AM
Scepti, that makes no sense. Of course you have something to resist your push, it's your friend.
For some odd reason or other, Scepti thinks that resistance initiates motion rather than inhibits it.  I guess Scepti has his own unique concept of resistance too.
You don't gain motion without leverage. If you can, then tell me how you think it can be done. Try not to use magic.
I know you don't. That is the point of Newton's first law. What you are confused about is that Anything with mass can be used as leverage. Air, water, your friend. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what mass it is if there's no leverage.
They even mess that up in the fake space station.
Can you remember the person with the weights showing us that mass is not worth a toss?
Remember the woman with the hair strand showing us that anything can be moved.
I mean, it was all fake but the crux of the matter is, they use it when they dismiss it when they feel the need and use it whenever they get stumped with space movement in a vacuum, as they tell us.

No leverage = no movement no matter what.
mass is worth a toss. Why can't an astronaut go outside the ISS, grab it, then move it to his other side? It is because the ISS has much more mass, so instead, the astronaut would move himself around. Another example, there is so much more recoil when you fire a buckshot round then when you fire a 9mm pistol. Because the buckshot has more mass than the 9mm bullet.
Newton's second law.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1582 on: July 19, 2016, 02:10:54 PM »
Quote from: Copper Knickers on July 19, 2016, 02:02:00 PM
Your earlier post seemed to acknowledge that there would be motion of both people, up to the point that their arms are fully extended:

They have no leverage to push each other away from each other, except the the length of their arms to fingertips. They stay at arms or fingertip length from each other, whether that's by touching fingertips or looking at each other with arms by their sides at arms length distance from each other.


Quote from: Copper Knickers on July 19, 2016, 02:02:00 PM
What stops this motion? Things that are moving keep moving unless something stops them. We know this from everyday experience.
To accelerate something you need a force. You need a friction or a leverage. You do not have that in your space.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1583 on: July 19, 2016, 02:14:11 PM »
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1584 on: July 19, 2016, 02:16:13 PM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
mass is worth a toss.
In atmosphere it is. Not in your space.

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
Why can't an astronaut go outside the ISS, grab it, then move it to his other side?
It is because the ISS has much more mass, so instead, the astronaut would move himself around.
Because the ISS does not exist. The large pool model of a supposed space station exists and is again in water that is against atmosphere, so mass is relevant. Just not in your space.


Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
Another example, there is so much more recoil when you fire a buckshot round then when you fire a 9mm pistol. Because the buckshot has more mass than the 9mm bullet.
Newton's second law.
No problem because it's recoil is in atmosphere, not in  your space.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1585 on: July 19, 2016, 02:17:36 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 02:16:13 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
mass is worth a toss.
In atmosphere it is. Not in your space.

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
Why can't an astronaut go outside the ISS, grab it, then move it to his other side?
It is because the ISS has much more mass, so instead, the astronaut would move himself around.
Because the ISS does not exist. The large pool model of a supposed space station exists and is again in water that is against atmosphere, so mass is relevant. Just not in your space.


Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:10:26 PM
Another example, there is so much more recoil when you fire a buckshot round then when you fire a 9mm pistol. Because the buckshot has more mass than the 9mm bullet.
Newton's second law.
No problem because it's recoil is in atmosphere, not in  your space.
I'll repeat what I said earlier. The atmosphere is just a bunch of molecules. Your friend is also a bunch of molecules. What is so special about the atmosphere's molecules?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1586 on: July 19, 2016, 02:19:02 PM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:14:11 PM
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
Once you stretch out there's no coming back. that's it. You stay where you are.
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Copper Knickers

  • 901
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1587 on: July 19, 2016, 02:20:13 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: Copper Knickers on July 19, 2016, 02:02:00 PM
Your earlier post seemed to acknowledge that there would be motion of both people, up to the point that their arms are fully extended:

They have no leverage to push each other away from each other, except the the length of their arms to fingertips. They stay at arms or fingertip length from each other, whether that's by touching fingertips or looking at each other with arms by their sides at arms length distance from each other.

So they do move then?

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: Copper Knickers on July 19, 2016, 02:02:00 PM
What stops this motion? Things that are moving keep moving unless something stops them. We know this from everyday experience.
To accelerate something you need a force. You need a friction or a leverage. You do not have that in your space.

This is exactly my point. Given that they do move to the point of being at arms length from each other, what stops them from carrying on moving? Once they are moving they require a force to stop.
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origamiscienceguy

  • 2138
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1588 on: July 19, 2016, 02:22:14 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 02:19:02 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:14:11 PM
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
Once you stretch out there's no coming back. that's it. You stay where you are.
And what if you grab their hand, and pull back in? There is still "no leverage" as you would say, so do your hands phase through eachother?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #1589 on: July 19, 2016, 02:29:14 PM »
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
Quote from: sceptimatic on July 19, 2016, 02:19:02 PM
Quote from: origamiscienceguy on July 19, 2016, 02:14:11 PM
What would happen, then if you and your friend pulled back in? Connected by only your fingertips? There is no leverage, so they definitely wouldn't come back together.
Once you stretch out there's no coming back. that's it. You stay where you are.
And what if you grab their hand, and pull back in? There is still "no leverage" as you would say, so do your hands phase through eachother?
How do you grab their hand when you are fingertip to fingertip?
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