Poll

Does Papa Legba understand newtons third law?

No
67 (87%)
Yes
10 (13%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Newtons third law

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disputeone

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #360 on: June 06, 2016, 02:31:27 AM »
If someone ever says "free expansion does no work" all they mean is that it does no work on the vacuum, which is pretty obvious in retrospect. This is because 19th century experimenters and 21st century high schools find it easiest to talk about gas properties in terms of pistons pushing on containers of gas. If the piston is replaced by nothingness, well clearly no work will be extracted from the system.

This doesn't mean the gas doesn't do anything. Think of it this way: First, you have a closed container, sitting in vacuum and containing a gas with some nonzero pressure PP inside. The force on the walls is the same in all directions, no matter the shape of the container, but for simplicity you can picture it as a cube with side length ss. Each wall will have a force Ps2Ps2 pushing on it.

Now remove one wall. There will no longer be any force acting on it (your "free expansion" principle), but until the gas is fully evacuated there will be a force on the opposite wall. So your container has a net force in the opposite direction from the gas expulsion lasting for some time. Momentum is conserved; rockets work.

When you're considering the properties of gases there are often two ways to look at the problem. The first is to use the continuum approximation leading to the usual laws like Boyle's law, Charles' law etc. The second is to treat the gas as many tiny particles (i.e. the gas atoms/molecules) and use Newtonian mechanics. In this case I think the second way is to understand what's going on.

The rocket motor burns a mixture of fuel and oxygen to produce a very hot gas. By very hot we mean that the gas molecules have very high random velocities:

If the fuel were burning in a vaccum the random directions of the atom velocities would mean the ball of atoms expands in a roughly spherical way and the total momentum stays zero. But the fuel is not burning in a vacuum, it's burning inside a combustion chamber:

The reason this matters is that the atoms can't escape to the right or up or down because the walls of the combution chamber are in the way. So they will bounce around until some random collision (with the walls or other atoms) gives them a velocity pointing to the left:

So very quickly all the atoms are going to end up with their velocities pointing in roughly the same direction, because at that point they can escape from the combustion chamber and go flying off into space. Now let's calculate the momentum of all those atoms. If there are NN atoms and the mass of each atom is mm and their average velocity is vv then the total momentum is now NmvNmv (we'll take velocity to the left to be positive). The momentum of the fuel before burning was zero, and after burning it's NmvNmv, so the momentum has changed by NmvNmv. Conservation of momentum means the rocket must have changed its momentum by −Nmv−Nmv so that the total momentum change adds up to zero.

So burning the fuel and allowing it to escape to the left means the rocket must have accelerated to the right. In other words the rocket engine has produced a force on the rocket, and we've calculated this without needing to think of pressures or other macroscopic quantities. In fact we can be more precise about the force. If the rocket produces NsNs particles of exhaust gas per second then the momentum change of the rocket per second is −Nsmv−Nsmv. Momentum change is force times time, so the force on the rocket is simply:

F=Nsmv
F=Nsmv
This force is produced simply because atoms moving to the right bounce off the end of the combustion chamber, and hence push the rocket to the right, but atoms moving to the left don't.

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hello_there

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #361 on: June 06, 2016, 02:34:58 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?

Now are you accusing me to be the same as Ryan? Dude, just ask jroa to check our IP addresses! Or you can just check our post per day, mine is like 1/5 of his. Or just calculate our post to total time spent online ratio. Mine is way lower than him.

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hello_there

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #362 on: June 06, 2016, 02:36:52 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?

Of course he is, anyone putting effort into a serious response to try and disprove what he's saying is failing. That was me to begin with, too. Papa's just looking for people to waste their time responding to him.

I suggest to people on this forum; as soon as you know someone is a troll, don't waste your time posting a serious response.

Yo come on dude I wasn't done writing ...

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rabinoz

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #363 on: June 06, 2016, 05:45:19 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?
Papa's not the only one laughing! I only reply to his posts when I need a bit of light relief, not to tell him (it) anything - I know that has no effect.

What do you expect when Papa Legba is just an AI programmed to spew out rubbish of cue.

He (it) believes in nothing and shows us he knows nothing that hasn't been planted there by his robot master, so what would we expect.

We don't change names (well I never have), but I would guarantee Papa floats around here in a few guises.

Would the real Papa please step forward! Sorry, bit hard for a mindless AI to do stand up!

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #364 on: June 06, 2016, 06:06:03 AM »
So now exhaust gas to a rocket is like wings to a bird, huh?

Yes, because they are both Accelerating a Mass.

But that Mass must interact with a second, external Mass to create a Force-Pairing & thus Motion.

This explains it:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.



If someone ever says "free expansion does no work" all they mean is... *rest of tl;dr copy-pasta disinfo-rant snipped*

Your total disregard for the path of least resistance & all the Gas Laws is noted.

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #365 on: June 06, 2016, 06:07:41 AM »
Could the rocket move without the exhaust gas?
Also no

This is equivalent to saying 'Could the bird move without its wings? Or the fish without its fins? Or the car without its wheels?'.
Birds, fish and cars don't shoot 80-90% of their mass out their tail ends to get where they're going either.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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rabinoz

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #366 on: June 06, 2016, 06:12:41 AM »
So now exhaust gas to a rocket is like wings to a bird, huh?

Yes, because they are both Accelerating a Mass.

But that Mass must interact with a second, external Mass to create a Force-Pairing & thus Motion.


Please quote an independent source that agrees with you!

That whirring noise is poor old Isaac spinning in his grave at your stupidity.

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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #367 on: June 06, 2016, 06:17:44 AM »
So now exhaust gas to a rocket is like wings to a bird, huh?

Yes, because they are both Accelerating a Mass.
And just what mass is a rocket accelerating?


If someone ever says "free expansion does no work" all they mean is... *rest of tl;dr copy-pasta disinfo-rant snipped*

Your total disregard for the path of least resistance & all the Gas Laws is noted.
As is your total disregard for gas to expand to fill available (combustion chamber) volume.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #368 on: June 06, 2016, 06:28:02 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?

Of course he is, anyone putting effort into a serious response to try and disprove what he's saying is failing. That was me to begin with, too. Papa's just looking for people to waste their time responding to him.

I suggest to people on this forum; as soon as you know someone is a troll, don't waste your time posting a serious response.
Think yourself lucky you're getting some response. It won't last long, so make the best of it before your name change.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #369 on: June 06, 2016, 06:29:00 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?

Now are you accusing me to be the same as Ryan? Dude, just ask jroa to check our IP addresses! Or you can just check our post per day, mine is like 1/5 of his. Or just calculate our post to total time spent online ratio. Mine is way lower than him.
Save your nonsense.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #370 on: June 06, 2016, 06:32:57 AM »
Birds, fish and cars don't shoot 80-90% of their mass out their tail ends to get where they're going either.

Yes; rockets are relatively inefficient; this is hardly news to anyone except sci fi-nerds & disinfo-turds.

They do go quite fast though, so it balances somewhat...

Your point?

]Please quote an independent source that agrees with you!

Okay:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.


Now STFU Geoff.

And just what mass is a rocket accelerating?

Back so soon, markjo?

And with such a dumb question?

Meh...

Up to some thread manipulation game or other as usual, no doubt.

As is your total disregard for gas to expand to fill available (combustion chamber) volume.

PATH. OF. LEAST. RESISTANCE!

MEANS. NO. PRESSURE. FOR. YOU. IN. SILLY. COMBUSTION. CHAMBER. IF. OPEN. TO. VACUUM!

OKAY?


*Yawn!*

Been here before, markjo; you lost every single time...

Remember?
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #371 on: June 06, 2016, 06:33:16 AM »
I'm sure Papa is laughing at you lot. Changing names to come back as if it's going to have any effect.  ;D
You people have tried every trick in the book at attempted ridicule and failed on every one. What's next?
Papa's not the only one laughing! I only reply to his posts when I need a bit of light relief, not to tell him (it) anything - I know that has no effect.

What do you expect when Papa Legba is just an AI programmed to spew out rubbish of cue.

He (it) believes in nothing and shows us he knows nothing that hasn't been planted there by his robot master, so what would we expect.

We don't change names (well I never have), but I would guarantee Papa floats around here in a few guises.

Would the real Papa please step forward! Sorry, bit hard for a mindless AI to do stand up!
You are obsessed, Geoff, you were like that with me at one point. Mr multi. You're a joke, an absolute joke of a person. Papa rips you to bits, time and time again.

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disputeone

  • 24826
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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #372 on: June 06, 2016, 06:38:39 AM »
PATH. OF. LEAST. RESISTANCE!

MEANS. NO. PRESSURE. FOR. YOU. IN. SILLY. COMBUSTION. CHAMBER. IF. OPEN. TO. VACUUM!

OKAY?


*Yawn!*

Been here before, markjo; you lost every single time...

Remember?

If someone ever says "free expansion does no work" all they mean is that it does no work on the vacuum, which is pretty obvious in retrospect. This is because 19th century experimenters and 21st century high schools find it easiest to talk about gas properties in terms of pistons pushing on containers of gas. If the piston is replaced by nothingness, well clearly no work will be extracted from the system.

This doesn't mean the gas doesn't do anything. Think of it this way: First, you have a closed container, sitting in vacuum and containing a gas with some nonzero pressure PP inside. The force on the walls is the same in all directions, no matter the shape of the container, but for simplicity you can picture it as a cube with side length ss. Each wall will have a force Ps2Ps2 pushing on it.

Now remove one wall. There will no longer be any force acting on it (your "free expansion" principle), but until the gas is fully evacuated there will be a force on the opposite wall. So your container has a net force in the opposite direction from the gas expulsion lasting for some time. Momentum is conserved; rockets work.

When you're considering the properties of gases there are often two ways to look at the problem. The first is to use the continuum approximation leading to the usual laws like Boyle's law, Charles' law etc. The second is to treat the gas as many tiny particles (i.e. the gas atoms/molecules) and use Newtonian mechanics. In this case I think the second way is to understand what's going on.

The rocket motor burns a mixture of fuel and oxygen to produce a very hot gas. By very hot we mean that the gas molecules have very high random velocities:

If the fuel were burning in a vaccum the random directions of the atom velocities would mean the ball of atoms expands in a roughly spherical way and the total momentum stays zero. But the fuel is not burning in a vacuum, it's burning inside a combustion chamber:

The reason this matters is that the atoms can't escape to the right or up or down because the walls of the combution chamber are in the way. So they will bounce around until some random collision (with the walls or other atoms) gives them a velocity pointing to the left:

So very quickly all the atoms are going to end up with their velocities pointing in roughly the same direction, because at that point they can escape from the combustion chamber and go flying off into space. Now let's calculate the momentum of all those atoms. If there are NN atoms and the mass of each atom is mm and their average velocity is vv then the total momentum is now NmvNmv (we'll take velocity to the left to be positive). The momentum of the fuel before burning was zero, and after burning it's NmvNmv, so the momentum has changed by NmvNmv. Conservation of momentum means the rocket must have changed its momentum by −Nmv−Nmv so that the total momentum change adds up to zero.

So burning the fuel and allowing it to escape to the left means the rocket must have accelerated to the right. In other words the rocket engine has produced a force on the rocket, and we've calculated this without needing to think of pressures or other macroscopic quantities. In fact we can be more precise about the force. If the rocket produces NsNs particles of exhaust gas per second then the momentum change of the rocket per second is −Nsmv−Nsmv. Momentum change is force times time, so the force on the rocket is simply:

F=Nsmv
F=Nsmv
This force is produced simply because atoms moving to the right bounce off the end of the combustion chamber, and hence push the rocket to the right, but atoms moving to the left don't.

Still want to play?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:41:55 AM by disputeone »
Quote from: Stash
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Whose narrative is it to not believe the government?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #373 on: June 06, 2016, 06:45:33 AM »
A vacuum cannot exist and neither can free expansion in its entirety. You can get close to it but the inevitable happens, as in, for every action there is and equal and opposite reaction, which means that molecules can only expand against each other, meaning not quite free expansion, because free expansion would mean expansion of a molecule against nothing and there is no such thing as nothing.


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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #374 on: June 06, 2016, 06:49:56 AM »
Birds, fish and cars don't shoot 80-90% of their mass out their tail ends to get where they're going either.

Yes; rockets are relatively inefficient; this is hardly news to anyone except sci fi-nerds & disinfo-turds.

They do go quite fast though, so it balances somewhat...

Your point?
My point is that rockets carry their own reaction mass.  You know, the 80-90% of mass that gets shot out the tail end?

And just what mass is a rocket accelerating?

Back so soon, markjo?

And with such a dumb question?
If it's such a dumb question, then you shouldn't have any trouble answering it.

As is your total disregard for gas to expand to fill available (combustion chamber) volume.

PATH. OF. LEAST. RESISTANCE!

MEANS. NO. PRESSURE. FOR. YOU. IN. SILLY. COMBUSTION. CHAMBER. IF. OPEN. TO. VACUUM!
The combustion chamber itself provides resistance to the gas flow.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #375 on: June 06, 2016, 06:51:52 AM »
The first is to use the continuum approximation leading to the usual laws like Boyle's law, Charles' law etc. The second is to treat the gas as many tiny particles (i.e. the gas atoms/molecules) and use Newtonian mechanics. In this case I think the second is way to understand what's going on.

Yes; let's get rid of all the Gas Laws & use Solid Mechanics instead...

Then ypoou cann hazz shpayze-shyppzz!!!1111!!!!11!

What a sad bastard you are.

Just disgusting.

Same goes for you markjo.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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hello_there

  • 253
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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #376 on: June 06, 2016, 07:05:49 AM »
So now exhaust gas to a rocket is like wings to a bird, huh?

Yes, because they are both Accelerating a Mass.

But that Mass must interact with a second, external Mass to create a Force-Pairing & thus Motion.

How about recoil of a hand gun then? Oh, you're gonna say it's the external atmosphere too. Right...

OK then, how about recoil of a crossbow then? Can you explain why there's recoil if you fire a crossbow?


(go to 5:10 where you can see the recoil, and he totally said "recoil" at 5:17)

Here's the explanation for people with right minds:
Action: The crossbow with its launching mechanism pushes the arrow forward.
Reaction: At the same time, due to Newton's 3rd law, the arrow also pushes the crossbows backwards, hence the recoil.

See, no external mass is required to produce recoil. And there is now way that the surrounding air causes the recoil.

Now, I want to hear your explanation. And, again, don't say "oh, a crossbow is not a rocket you dumb ass". Well, your mind has failed you in understanding a rocket, so I use something that works in the same principle regarding Newton's 3rd law. Go on, tell me which is the bird, which is the wing, and which is the air.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #377 on: June 06, 2016, 08:31:20 AM »
How about recoil of a hand gun then? Oh, you're gonna say it's the external atmosphere too. Right...

Wrong.

no external mass is required to produce recoil.

Notice how the man cocks the crossbow THEN loads the arrow.

This means that the arrow is a Separate, or EXTERNAL Mass to the crossbow...

You can work out the rest by now, surely?

If not, this may help:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.


Now STFU.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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sokarul

  • 19303
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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #378 on: June 06, 2016, 08:40:05 AM »
Notice how the rocket is built and then the liquid oxygen and fuel are pumped in?

Now STFU
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #379 on: June 06, 2016, 09:05:13 AM »
Notice how the rocket is built and then the liquid oxygen and fuel are pumped in?

Now STFU

Notice how fuelling the rocket is equivalent to cocking the crossbow?

So it still needs an external mass in order to conform with N3 once the potential energy of the internally stored mass is accelerated?

Now STFU.

Plus this:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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hello_there

  • 253
  • Round Earther
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #380 on: June 06, 2016, 09:12:12 AM »
Notice how fuelling the rocket is equivalent to cocking the crossbow?

I don't, cause I'm not that dumb, obviously. Fuelling the rocket adds mass and energy to it, cocking the crossbow just adds the energy. What's equivalent then? Cocking the crossbow then loading the arrow, you add both mass and energy to it. The fuel then reacts with oxygen releasing energy, like the cocked crossbow releasing it's potential energy. The product of the reaction is then blasted downwards, like the arrow launched forward. The rocket then pushed upwards, like the crossbow pushed backwards. Where's the atmosphere then? Well, we don't need it to push the rocket.

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sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #381 on: June 06, 2016, 09:32:57 AM »
Notice how the rocket is built and then the liquid oxygen and fuel are pumped in?

Now STFU

Notice how fuelling the rocket is equivalent to cocking the crossbow?

So it still needs an external mass in order to conform with N3 once the potential energy of the internally stored mass is accelerated?

Now STFU.

Plus this:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.

Nope. The combustion chamber/combustion is equal to the string.

BTW there is nothing in your spamming that supports your claims.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #382 on: June 06, 2016, 10:21:17 AM »
Fuelling the rocket adds mass and energy to it, cocking the crossbow just adds the energy

So the string has no mass & does not accelerate?

Cool story bro...

Cocking the crossbow then loading the arrow

LOL!!!

I see what you did there!

The combustion chamber/combustion is equal to the string.

Wtf?

You lot really do need to get your mad disinfo-bullshit straight.

But good job reducing what is in fact a matter of Fluid Mechanics/Thermodynamics to the entirely inappropriate realm of Solid Mechanics...

As you always do.

Now this:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.


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sokarul

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #383 on: June 06, 2016, 10:28:20 AM »
You must wear diapers.

Lol

Back to "Exhuast stacking."
Lol

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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #384 on: June 06, 2016, 11:37:45 AM »
Back to "Exhuast stacking."

'Exhuast' stacking is your own mad & incorrectly-spelled disinfo-invention, socky-boy...

That you attribute the notion to myself merely shows how desperate you are.

I believe you created some educational diagrams to elucidate 'exhuast stacking'...

Care to share them with us again?

We all need a laugh.
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markjo

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #385 on: June 06, 2016, 11:56:18 AM »
Fuelling the rocket adds mass and energy to it, cocking the crossbow just adds the energy

So the string has no mass & does not accelerate?
The mass of the string is already a part of the crossbow's overall mass.

Cocking the crossbow then loading the arrow

LOL!!!

I see what you did there!
Yes, you realized that adding tension to the crossbow string is an independent function to loading the arrow. 

Or did you?

Perhaps you're thinking about a bow and arrow where loading the arrow and adding tension to the string are generally considered one action.

If you want, you can think of the arrow as the rocket and the crossbow as the propellant.  The crossbow string contains the energy (like the propellant) and the action of pushing the mass of the arrow results in a reaction of the arrow pushing the crossbow. 
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hello_there

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #386 on: June 06, 2016, 11:56:23 AM »
Fuelling the rocket adds mass and energy to it, cocking the crossbow just adds the energy

So the string has no mass & does not accelerate?

Sure it does. But unlike the rocket fuel, the string is not ejected. It pretty much stays there, with the crossbow. Get it Papa? Sure you don't :D :D

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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #387 on: June 06, 2016, 11:40:21 PM »
If you want, you can think of the arrow as the rocket and the crossbow as the propellant.

If you want to be retarded you can.

But you've managed to steer the 'debate' into the realm of Solid Mechanics, as usual, so I guess you're happy with how your shill-mission is going, eh?

But unlike the rocket fuel, the string is not ejected.

A rocket does not simply 'eject' fuel; it burns it in a controlled manner inside itself, creating an area of high pressure at the exit of the nozzle which in turn creates a force-pairing with the external mass of the atmosphere.

If the external mass is removed, as in vacuum conditions, then no force-pairing can be created & no motion produced.

Simple stuff.

If you are still confused, please read this:

Newton's Third Law

Identifying Action and Reaction Force Pairs

A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions!

Examples of Interaction Force Pairs
A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the water must also be pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim.

Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the air must also be pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly.

Consider the motion of a car on the way to school. A car is equipped with wheels that spin. As the wheels spin, they grip the road and push the road backwards. Since forces result from mutual interactions, the road must also be pushing the wheels forward. The size of the force on the road equals the size of the force on the wheels (or car); the direction of the force on the road (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the wheels (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for cars to move along a roadway surface.





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hello_there

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #388 on: June 07, 2016, 12:06:27 AM »
If you want, you can think of the arrow as the rocket and the crossbow as the propellant.

If you want to be retarded you can.

But you've managed to steer the 'debate' into the realm of Solid Mechanics, as usual, so I guess you're happy with how your shill-mission is going, eh?

So tell me Papa, the one you keep on posting, is it Newton's 3rd Law for solid mechanics or fluids?

But unlike the rocket fuel, the string is not ejected.

A rocket does not simply 'eject' fuel; it burns it in a controlled manner inside itself, creating an area of high pressure at the exit of the nozzle which in turn creates a force-pairing with the external mass of the atmosphere.

If the external mass is removed, as in vacuum conditions, then no force-pairing can be created & no motion produced.

Simple stuff.

And the burnt fuel stays in the combustion chamber there? Like the string stays with the crossbow? You're, again, not gonna answer this properly though, are you?

Anyway, since you don't want all to be solid, how about this then


How can those "hoverboads" propel their riders upwards, and why does it have to eject water downwards at high speed? Notice how it ejects water, yet doesn't have to be in the water to work? Pretty much like a rocket ejecting air but don't have to be surrounded by air to work. So Papa, which is the bird, which is the wing, and which is the atmosphere? A friendly advice, you better stop now and leave with what's left of your dignity, rather than keep going and having it less and less with you. But personally, I'd love to see you keep on going.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 12:13:39 AM by hello_there »

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Papa Legba

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Re: Newtons third law
« Reply #389 on: June 07, 2016, 12:31:42 AM »
A gas can create a force-pairing with another gas, yes.

You may find the formula Force=Pressure x Area useful here, where mass x acceleration is contained within the term 'Force'. In the case of a rocket the Pressure is applied at the Area of the nozzle exit, where it meets the external mass of the atmosphere...

Again, no external mass = no pressure; all in accordance with N3.

As for your hoverboards, water is an incompressible fluid; this may give you a clue as to how they work?

Unless you are claiming they violate N3?

In which case God help you...

Anyhoo; please continue your mad ranting, which is written in the exact same style as BabyHighSpeed, Frenat & Luckyfred btw.

Or don't.

Makes no odds to me...
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