Dinosaurs: Made In China

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/smithsonian-admits-to-destruction-of-thousands-of-giant-human-skeletons-in-early-1900s/

We got them. It seems Charles Fort might have been on to more than he knew! If there is a link between the cover-up of Giants and the falsification of Dinosaurs, this certainly sounds like it might be a smoking gun. The dinofauxs myth will fall.

Quote from: John Davis on May 15, 2016, 03:37:08 PM

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/smithsonian-admits-to-destruction-of-thousands-of-giant-human-skeletons-in-early-1900s/

We got them. It seems Charles Fort might have been on to more than he knew! If there is a link between the cover-up of Giants and the falsification of Dinosaurs, this certainly sounds like it might be a smoking gun. The dinofauxs myth will fall.

This article is FAKE, dumbass. It's a joke. Worldnewsdailyreport.com is a satirical website.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/smithsonian-admits-destroying-giant-human-skeletons/

Quote from: John Davis on May 15, 2016, 03:54:36 PM

Canopy theory actually was where I first started with the flat earth, looking at how a water canopy would affect a sun outside of the dome, causing an illusion of the sun setting. I was pretty green back then though, so it wasn't very fruitful.

I think I finally see it!

You can't explain all the holes in the Flat Earth model, so instead of looking at the earth we now have you to try to divert our attention from the here and now with all this polarised ultraviolet moon shramp (or whatever) and now the existence or not of dinosaurs.

What a bit of effort to get over the impossibilities of UA, Sunrise, Sunset, shape of continents, distance between continents, moon phases and eclipses, constancy of the shapes of constellations etc, etc, ad nauseam.

Still, if you have no answers to these things, I guess is good tactics do divert our attention from the basic issues.

Quote from: John Davis on May 15, 2016, 04:10:46 PM

Quote from: Dinosaur Neil on May 15, 2016, 03:59:00 PM

OK, let's be clear here... say a member of the public finds a big skeleton that is the shape of a dinosaur buried in rocks in the ground, you're saying it's not a dinosaur? Since that couldn't have been faked in China then what exactly IS that thing the person found?

They are likely faking it for the cash payout. For example, when the first dinosaur was supposedly found in a random pit. And they faked an IGUANODON together from something that in his notes looked like a crocodile. And some blunt teeth.

Take some time and go look up an Iguanodon and a Crocodile. They look so far apart you'd think they hailed from different planets. And so they fake the head, later discovered mind you by the 'experts', by using the Iguana as a reference - when discovered they gave it another head, one with a bill! Then of course, this silly idea was thrown away. And we have the modern Iguanodon. I can only thank God that He didn't take such wanton disregard while creating his works. Otherwise we would have had a bill, a beak, and a snout before we landed on mouth. Of course, we have evidence of his creatures - not so much for the dragons you talk of.

People find a half chicken leg in a rock and think its a new species of dinosaur. Wanting to up their payout, sometimes its altered, by methods described earlier. Several iterations later of similar chicken bones and bam. You got yourself a full grown dinosaur, just add in a Spielberg movie and its too legit for the government to quit.

Do you think we won't notice that you didn't actually answer the question?
A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC finds a BIG SKELETON (not a single leg). Jesus H Christ on a bicycle, just how many people have to be in your gigantic conspiracy for it to actually function? Please answer the question.

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 16, 2016, 04:07:57 AM

Quote from: John Davis on May 15, 2016, 03:37:08 PM

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/smithsonian-admits-to-destruction-of-thousands-of-giant-human-skeletons-in-early-1900s/

We got them. It seems Charles Fort might have been on to more than he knew! If there is a link between the cover-up of Giants and the falsification of Dinosaurs, this certainly sounds like it might be a smoking gun. The dinofauxs myth will fall.

This article is FAKE, dumbass. It's a joke. Worldnewsdailyreport.com is a satirical website.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/smithsonian-admits-destroying-giant-human-skeletons/

If you can't keep a civil tongue in your mouth, perhaps you need a vacation. Consider this a warning.

And cikljamas and sceptimatic and JRowe.

And all those newbyes recruted by Youtube videos. But they typically do not stay long at this forum. It is too intelligent (!) for them.

I think that hoppy really believes that earth is a torus. But I have no evidence for it.

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 15, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

And cikljamas and sceptimatic and JRowe.

And all those newbyes recruted by Youtube videos. But they typically do not stay long at this forum. It is too intelligent (!) for them.

I think that hoppy really believes that earth is a torus. But I have no evidence for it.

You think those three are True Believers? I think you might be more credulous than you think you are...
It is indeed I who am the leading proponent of Torus Earth Theory. While I will admit (unlike the FE'ers) that it has some holes in it, I assure you I am as serious about this belief as Mr Davis is about Flat Earth.

Returning to your answer to my question, Mr Davis, since the answer to my question about the object was that it was a "greed", please can you explain how greed can be an object?

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 15, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

And cikljamas and sceptimatic and JRowe.

And all those newbyes recruted by Youtube videos. But they typically do not stay long at this forum. It is too intelligent (!) for them.

I think that hoppy really believes that earth is a torus. But I have no evidence for it.

You think those three are True Believers? I think you might be more credulous than you think you are...

Quote from: Dinosaur Neil on May 16, 2016, 11:42:54 AM

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 15, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

And cikljamas and sceptimatic and JRowe.

And all those newbyes recruted by Youtube videos. But they typically do not stay long at this forum. It is too intelligent (!) for them.

I think that hoppy really believes that earth is a torus. But I have no evidence for it.

You think those three are True Believers? I think you might be more credulous than you think you are...
It is indeed I who am the leading proponent of Torus Earth Theory. While I will admit (unlike the FE'ers) that it has some holes in it, I assure you I am as serious about this belief as Mr Davis is about Flat Earth.

Returning to your answer to my question, Mr Davis, since the answer to my question about the object was that it was a "greed", please can you explain how greed can be an object?

Why are you subjected to greed?  Could it not be because greed is an object?  Subjectively speaking of your objectivity, of course.

Quote from: jroa on May 16, 2016, 12:15:42 PM

Quote from: Dinosaur Neil on May 16, 2016, 11:42:54 AM

Quote from: FalseProphet on May 15, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

And cikljamas and sceptimatic and JRowe.

And all those newbyes recruted by Youtube videos. But they typically do not stay long at this forum. It is too intelligent (!) for them.

I think that hoppy really believes that earth is a torus. But I have no evidence for it.

You think those three are True Believers? I think you might be more credulous than you think you are...
It is indeed I who am the leading proponent of Torus Earth Theory. While I will admit (unlike the FE'ers) that it has some holes in it, I assure you I am as serious about this belief as Mr Davis is about Flat Earth.

Returning to your answer to my question, Mr Davis, since the answer to my question about the object was that it was a "greed", please can you explain how greed can be an object?

Why are you subjected to greed?  Could it not be because greed is an object?  Subjectively speaking of your objectivity, of course.

Sorry, did that post mean something?   

What are the big skeletons that normal members of the public (not NASA employees, not professional palaeontologists, not "shills") find in the ground? The bones that can't be humans, or giants, or chickens, or normal lizards. Any answers from posters who are not from the Australopithecus level of humanity?

Quote from: Dinosaur Neil on May 16, 2016, 02:21:38 PM

What are the big skeletons that normal members of the public (not NASA employees, not professional palaeontologists, not "shills") find in the ground? The bones that can't be humans, or giants, or chickens, or normal lizards. Any answers from posters who are not from the Australopithecus level of humanity?

When you and your drunk buddies look at bones, please keep us up to date. 

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

You believe in the Canopy-Theory?

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

Using fragments of bones from here and there he heaped fiction upon fiction to support his imaginative view of what were essentially dragons for a new age.

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 16, 2016, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

The bible also mentions being able to see the whole Earth from the top of a mountain.  Do you take every fairy tale seriously, or just the 5000 year old ones?

Quote from: jroa on May 16, 2016, 04:35:19 PM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 16, 2016, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

The bible also mentions being able to see the whole Earth from the top of a mountain.  Do you take every fairy tale seriously, or just the 5000 year old ones?

First of all it said that Satan show'd him all the kingdoms of the earth not the entire earth. Satan show'd Jesus via a vision or something of the like. The reason he took him on the mountain was to boost his ego.

Second, you have to take things in context. For example why would the Bible and just about every culture (including the native Americans) speak of a completely mythical creature with no basis in reality? Surely a legend that far spread has at least some truth in it. So just because SOME things in the Bible is allegory or doesn't literally means what it says doesn't mean ALL of it is. Also are you saying that the earth is round because you can't see all of the kingdoms? I thought that was one of the key verses that FEs use to prove that the Bible speaks of a flat earth.

And thirdly my question was toward a fellow believer who believes in the Bible. Not you. And also questioning the Bible is not the topic so stop derailing.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

• Sea Monsters (ie cetus, cetea)
• Serpent like monsters
• Chimera
• Dracena

The above verse though is from the greek drakon - "seeing one" or at best "huge serpent" literally meaning an enemy that sees you from far away. Only later brought into English to mean "dragon" as we know it today.

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 16, 2016, 08:51:32 PM

Quote from: jroa on May 16, 2016, 04:35:19 PM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 16, 2016, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

The bible also mentions being able to see the whole Earth from the top of a mountain.  Do you take every fairy tale seriously, or just the 5000 year old ones?

First of all it said that Satan show'd him all the kingdoms of the earth not the entire earth. Satan show'd Jesus via a vision or something of the like. The reason he took him on the mountain was to boost his ego.

Second, you have to take things in context. For example why would the Bible and just about every culture (including the native Americans) speak of a completely mythical creature with no basis in reality? Surely a legend that far spread has at least some truth in it. So just because SOME things in the Bible is allegory or doesn't literally means what it says doesn't mean ALL of it is. Also are you saying that the earth is round because you can't see all of the kingdoms? I thought that was one of the key verses that FEs use to prove that the Bible speaks of a flat earth.

And thirdly my question was toward a fellow believer who believes in the Bible. Not you. And also questioning the Bible is not the topic so stop derailing.

Except at the time one couldn't get high enough to see all the kingdoms of the world, which were clearly more spread out than the curvature would allow you to see.  One would be hard pressed to even see the Kingdoms in the middle east, let alone China and Europe.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:58:29 AM

Quote from: Luke 22:35-38 on May 15, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 13, 2016, 12:54:10 PM

Quote from: Round and Proud on May 13, 2016, 12:46:18 PM

The heart of a blue whale weighs about a half a ton, 1000 lbs. It has to be large enough to pump about 15,000 pints of blood as compared to about 8 pints in a human.
The average heart rate for a man is 72bpm. A blue whale’s heart beats six times a minute. A horse has 38bpm. A rabbit has 205bpm. A rat 420. A mouse 670. The heartbeat of a canary occurs 17 times in a second.
A rate of 1260 beats per minute was measured in a Blue-throated Hummingbird. In torpid hummingbirds, the heart rate can drop to 50-180 per minute.
A giraffe depends on it’s powerful heart that weighs up to 12kg so that it can fight the force of gravity up that long neck to the head.
Octopuses have three hearts.

Well that debunks the BS about their hearts

Octopuses are not birds are not rats are not rabbits are not horses are not whales are not man are not dinosaurs!

It does no such thing, you've only proved my case. Its not a matter of size, its a matter that their heart would explode. The giraffe is at the peak possible size for heart size for any creature. Beyond that, their hearts would explode.

A long necked dinosaur would not be able to lift its neck, and their blood pressure would cause their heart to explode. A giraffe is at about the peak heart to neck size; any longer and it would die with a blood pressure higher than any other animal. The whale is not a giraffe and is not a long necked dinosaur. The difficulty, as you point out, is fighting gravity up that long neck. The relative size of a giraffe heart is impressive - but an equivalent heart for a dinosaur with a long neck of the sizes we are told would have to be larger than the dinosaur itself or explode due to the pressure. This is not mentioning the point that they would overheat quickly with a heart this large.

You're assuming today's environment. Probably yes, long neck dinosaurs may indeed living in our current state. However you fail to take account of a pressurized atmosphere which might help in the aid of blood flow.

I recall reading a few hypotheses down this line that ultimately failed. I'll look them up again, thanks for the good point.

However everybody here sure seems to think this argument hinges on long necked dinosaurs and not the other proofs given of the sheer impossibility of these bird dragons.

The Bible mentions of dragons, flying serpents, and behemoth. If dinosaurs don't exist then what are the things I've listed?

Likewise, the description matches several other animals far better - like the hippo or elephant.

Flying serpents still exist today. http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/reptiles/flying-snake/

And on to dragons.

Deuteronomy, Job and others uses the word Tannin in instances like this: "the poison of serpents, and the cruel." Tannin here is most often translated meaning 'serpent, dragon, sea-monster' as well as whale, serpent, or sea-monster.  Its also used of snakes that come from Aaron's rod. I question whether or not it was used to mean dragon until it made it into biblical translations at all, especially greek translations which may have chosen 'drakon' as we see in revelation. If so, you can agree there's plenty of translation room here.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

Are you suggesting that Satan was a dinosaur?

The above verse though is from the greek drakon - "seeing one" or at best "huge serpent" literally meaning an enemy that sees you from far away. Only later brought into English to mean "dragon" as we know it today. Though you make a good point - Satan as the deceiver may indeed be "dinosaurs" in general, in the view that Satan is the opposition to the bible and the undermining of its validity, much of which has been done through use of dinosaurs. To me, I look at mythology from Greece I see all the dragons that are denoted by the drakon. These can be divided easily into four main classes

• Sea Monsters (ie cetus, cetea)
• Serpent like monsters
• Chimera
• Dracena

Cetea was serpent like and lived in the sea. Likewise for most others of this class.

Serpent like monsters did have some flying snakes, but large flying snakes are not dragons and dragons are not dinosaurs.

Chimera, which is clearly not a dragon.

Dracena which is a Sea-monster with half the body of a woman.

Will I admit the bible says there are sea-monsters that are serpent-like? Sure. However they are overwhelmingly (especially when one considers the historical accounts in myth versus the mythical accounts) sea monsters and large snakes. It seems very clear that cases of "drakon" are actually cases of sea-monsters.

You also see Tanack show up. Again, most often referring to a sea-monster.

The bible also mentions Giants, far more often. Are you not willing to admit at least some of the so-called dinosaurs are actually giants, thus explaining why we never find man's bones in proximity to dinosaurs?

As far as Native American mentions of dragons, we have this:

Which looks like no dragon we've known, even a little. The Chinese dragon looks like a snake. The celtic one? Most often a snake, sometimes winged.

However, we already have precedence for living creatures that fit the common description of dragons. While we've done pretty well to show the Bible (and other cultures) talk based in the reality of serpents and sea-monsters there are still real life lizards that appeal to our modern conception of a "dragon".

Quote from: rabinoz on May 15, 2016, 09:21:06 PM

<<<< . . . . . . . . . . . I'll leave all this out for brevity . . . . . . . . . . . >>>>

I've explained all the holes in flat earth theory. Not to be rude, but you lack the comprehension necessary to realize this.
I obviously don't believe in UA as has been stated many many many times. However, I'll answer your other questions.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Why do you people come here? Does it make you feel big to put down those you think are less smart than you?

In Search of the Edge, The World is Flat - Teacher Notes

Sunrise, Sunset
The Earth travels a straight line enclosing the sun, causing the illusion of the sun intersecting the horizon.

Eclipses
Lunar eclipses are simply the case of the Earth travelling a straight line between the Moon and the Sun.

Phases of the Moon
The moon travels in a straight line enclosing the Earth which in turn is travelling in a straight line enclosing the Sun. The rays of the sun light a different portion of the moon based on its position relative to the sun.

Constellations consistent in Northern and Southern Hemisphere
Given a point at the North Pole, we can walk until we reach a point that shares a line normal to the path that passes through our starting location. As we travel along this path, our rotating frame of reference is gradually reversed until we find it upside down. When we rotate upside down, relative to our starting locations “up”, we see a reverse in the apparent rotation of other bodies.

Distance between continents (this is explained the same was as circumnavigation and really any other geographical concern)
The surface of earth is a non-euclidean space. A globe is a somewhat accurate projection of this space on a 3d surface.

As it follows directly from a postulate in our geometry that straight lines will meet themselves, circumnavigation follows directly as well. Circumnavigation is the case of travelling a straight line with a period.

Additionally and likewise, you can realize all phenomena are consistent with a flat earth by understanding relativity and my satellite thought experiment. I suggest you review it: http://theflatearthsociety.net/relativity.html

While it might suit your nature to insult me and my model, of which you have no understanding, the reality is the reason I'm talking about Dinosaurs and Giants is because it was mentioned in a flat earth book and wanted to bring it to discussion to see its relevance.

The basic issues are a joke and have been resolved for years now. I'm just waiting for the roundies to catch up and understand their own theory, which in fact says the earth is flat.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2016, 08:53:11 AM

Quote from: rabinoz on May 15, 2016, 09:21:06 PM

<<<< . . . . . . . . . . . I'll leave all this out for brevity . . . . . . . . . . . >>>>

I've explained all the holes in flat earth theory. Not to be rude, but you lack the comprehension necessary to realize this.
I obviously don't believe in UA as has been stated many many many times. However, I'll answer your other questions.

I would prefer to call it explained away all the holes in flat earth theory , because from my point of view none of the explanations fit with what I see.

You "don't believe in UA", so what causes what we call gravitation? I know you would not go with the outlandish ideas brandished by some, so what else is there "to cause down"?

Quote from: John Davis

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Why do you people come here? Does it make you feel big to put down those you think are less smart than you?

No, I don't want to put anyone down, but also I don't want to see the newcomers taken in by ideas that to me have no foundation.
So many professions and occupations these days are so dependent implicitly on the "shape of the earth" without many actually realising it. You can't navigate a boat or plane without knowing. The flight routes in the Southern Hemisphere do not fit any Flat Earth I have seen. Then all those dependent of satellite technology in so many forms know that satellites are exactly where they are stated to be.

But, I really do not want to argue with you. You seem to take Leo Ferrari's work as "promoting the flat earth". I am afraid I see it as a complete spoof designed quite carefully to help educate school children into knowing why the current Heliocentric Globe is the accepted model! I imagine you have seen all the video and teaching material, but some of the "study guide" is interesting:

In Search of the Edge, The World is Flat - Teacher Notes

Quote from: John Davis

Sunrise, Sunset
The Earth travels a straight line enclosing the sun, causing the illusion of the sun intersecting the horizon.

This all seems to come from your ideas based on the "Ferrari Effect", where you claim large curvature of apace. General Realtivity shows that Space-Time is curved, but from all that I can find the actual curvature of space in our locality is minute, as noted by Leo Ferrari in his "Teaching Notes". Now you might be "extending Newton and Einstein", but surely before basing too much on that hypothesis you should have it verified.

From a "down to earth" point of view, on the Flat Earth model we have been shown, the distance from the observer to the sun can vary from some 5,000 km (overhead) to over 12,000 km at sunset. But, it is observed that the apparent size of the sun stays constant at close to 0.5° from sunrise to sunset - perspective or whatever you call it does not do that!
I will leave it with that because to my limited intelligence "The Earth travels a straight line enclosing the sun, causing the illusion of the sun intersecting the horizon" is quite meaningless!

Quote from: John Davis

Eclipses
Lunar eclipses are simply the case of the Earth travelling a straight line between the Moon and the Sun.

Phases of the Moon
The moon travels in a straight line enclosing the Earth which in turn is travelling in a straight line enclosing the Sun. The rays of the sun light a different portion of the moon based on its position relative to the sun.

Likewise - is it possible to draw this in a way that can be visualized?

Quote from: John Davis

Constellations consistent in Northern and Southern Hemisphere
Given a point at the North Pole, we can walk until we reach a point that shares a line normal to the path that passes through our starting location. As we travel along this path, our rotating frame of reference is gradually reversed until we find it upside down. When we rotate upside down, relative to our starting locations “up”, we see a reverse in the apparent rotation of other bodies.

Distance between continents (this is explained the same was as circumnavigation and really any other geographical concern)
The surface of earth is a non-euclidean space. A globe is a somewhat accurate projection of this space on a 3d surface.

Yes, the "surface of earth is a non-euclidean space" when looked at in two-dimensions, but when the whole globe is looked at as just a part of 3-d space, then it is almost precisely Euclidean. The only departure is the minute curvature of space as given by GR.

Quote from: John Davis

As it follows directly from a postulate in our geometry that straight lines will meet themselves, circumnavigation follows directly as well. Circumnavigation is the case of travelling a straight line with a period.

Yes, "straight lines will meet themselves" when constrained to the surface of a sphere, but then they are no longer straight lines!

Quote from: John Davis

Additionally and likewise, you can realize all phenomena are consistent with a flat earth by understanding relativity and my satellite thought experiment. I suggest you review it: http://theflatearthsociety.net/relativity.html

While it might suit your nature to insult me and my model, of which you have no understanding, the reality is the reason I'm talking about Dinosaurs and Giants is because it was mentioned in a flat earth book and wanted to bring it to discussion to see its relevance.

The basic issues are a joke and have been resolved for years now. I'm just waiting for the roundies to catch up and understand their own theory, which in fact says the earth is flat.

I don't want "to insult you and your model", but I do have to call it as I see it, to do anything else would be dishonest on my part.

I am afraid I simply do not accept you ideas on "relativity". At least Einstein looked for (and found) evidence to support his theories. Yours seem to be just hypotheses, "bending" Einstein's ideas in ways he would never have dreamed of.

What about you coming up with a map (that you claim is meaningless!) that real people can use to find there way around your version of the "real earth". And what about "gravitation" (on earth) that flat earthers deny?

To me the earth (and in fact the universe) is something tangible that has a definite shape and can be measured and mapped.

I know I will never convince you, but maybe some more down to earth readers might take notice!

Einstein himself seemed rather indifferent to the experimental tests, however. The first came in 1919, when the British physicist Arthur Eddington observed the Sun’s gravity bending starlight during a solar eclipse. What if those results hadn’t agreed with the theory? (Some accuse Eddington of cherry-picking the figures anyway, but that’s another story.) ‘Then,’ said Einstein, ‘I would have been sorry for the dear Lord, for the theory is correct.’

Luke,

You make some very strong points, but they ultimately aren't convincing to me. To me it appears as if dragons were largely referred to as sea monsters for the longest time. While this is typical for water based reptiles, this still says nothing of the sauropod. Likewise your explanation of the behemoth does make sense, but its not a perfect enough fit to really warrant it being evidence for dinosaurs.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Behemoth is a dinosaur. From Job:
"15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron."

Unfortunately for you, I've had the Ferrari effect verified with experts in the field as an appropriate and correct (if misguided as they knew I was a Flat Earther) interpretation of relativity. So no I'm not ""bending" Einstein's ideas in ways he would never have dreamed of." IF I am I'm doing so in a legitimate manner.

Also, Einstein did not look for evidence support his theories. Others found evidence for his theories for him. However, he wasn't one for evidence.

Quote

Einstein himself seemed rather indifferent to the experimental tests, however. The first came in 1919, when the British physicist Arthur Eddington observed the Sun’s gravity bending starlight during a solar eclipse. What if those results hadn’t agreed with the theory? (Some accuse Eddington of cherry-picking the figures anyway, but that’s another story.) ‘Then,’ said Einstein, ‘I would have been sorry for the dear Lord, for the theory is correct.’

He was also caught faking his experimental results.

That part about people coming here wasn't directed at you. I appreciate you have to call it like you see it, and that is the drive behind debate.

Leo Ferrari's work was in jest, I agree. However, that does not damn the idea he came up with. As Rowbotham once said, Let us make use of our enemies.

The best way to visualize these explanations is to understand my thought experiment first. That's why I created it.

Unfortunately for you, I've had the Ferrari effect verified with experts in the field as an appropriate and correct (if misguided as they knew I was a Flat Earther) interpretation of relativity.

I don't think we can even agree on that since as long as you and I are in this thread we are going to disagree and promote our views. My main points about behemoth are (1) he has a tail of a cedar tree

King James Bible
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He stiffens his tail like a cedar tree; the tendons of his thighs are woven firmly together.

International Standard Version
His tail protrudes stiffly, like cedar; the sinews of his thigh interlink for strength.

NET Bible
It makes its tail stiff like a cedar, the sinews of its thighs are tightly wound.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It makes its tail stiff like a cedar. The ligaments of its thighs are intertwined.

JPS Tanakh 1917
He straineth his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

New American Standard 1977
“He bends his tail like a cedar;
            The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Jubilee Bible 2000
He moves his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

King James 2000 Bible
He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his thighs are knit together.

American King James Version
He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

American Standard Version
He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He setteth up his tail like a cedar, the sinews of his testicles are wrapped together.

Darby Bible Translation
He bendeth his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are woven together.

English Revised Version
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Webster's Bible Translation
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his male organs are wrapped together.

World English Bible
He moves his tail like a cedar. The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Young's Literal Translation
He doth bend his tail as a cedar, The sinews of his thighs are wrapped together,