Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times

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Danang

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2020, 11:13:33 PM »
Talking about many things by neglecting basics.
"Gravity exists", "the sun is extremely far away" bla bla bla Hmm... why not go to real world?

This is the reality: 👇



Goto 12:52


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Danang

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2020, 11:14:20 PM »
Flat earther combines with tourism salesman! ;D ;D ;D
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rabinoz

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2020, 11:24:43 PM »
Talking about many things by neglecting basics.
"Gravity exists", "the sun is extremely far away" bla bla bla Hmm... why not go to real world?

This is the reality: 👇



Goto 12:52
I see nothing to say that the Globe isn't "the real world" in that.

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Danang

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2020, 12:03:24 AM »
It's a classic question that REers cannot answer: "Why does that sunray get divergent?"
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JackBlack

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2020, 01:19:32 AM »
Daytime is longer than 12 hours because the sunray's strength/intencity is able to illuminate more than 180° of delta longtude. It applies under flat earth model.
No, no matter bright your light is, a simple light cannot match the illumination patterns observed on Earth.
That is because you need a dark region closer to the sun than a bright region.

No matter how big it is, an extremely distanct light sourch cannot touch more than 50% of a sphere.
Pure nonsense.
Simple geometry proves it.

A simple experiment with a ball at sunrise/sunset will prove it.
Really?
How does your test account for refraction, which would occur for Earth, amounting to roughly 0.5 degrees, i.e. the width of the sun, but not your ball?
How do you measure the tiny angles required?

Globe model fails clearly before everyone's eyes.
Nope, that would be you failing.

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wise

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2020, 03:53:38 AM »
Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again  :o

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later
Local time. Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta.

London 06:47
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=9&year=2020

Accra 05:50
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ghana/accra?month=9&year=2020
Similarly, London is one hour ahead of Accra.
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JJA

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2020, 04:01:36 AM »
Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again  :o

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later
Local time. Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta.

London 06:47
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=9&year=2020

Accra 05:50
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ghana/accra?month=9&year=2020
Similarly, London is one hour ahead of Accra.

This is what happens when you have all the people that answer questions on your ignore list, you end up answering stuff that has been answered multiple times already.  ::)

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markjo

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2020, 07:29:30 AM »
Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again  :o

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later
Local time. Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta.
They are in different time zones.

London 06:47
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=9&year=2020

Accra 05:50
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ghana/accra?month=9&year=2020
Similarly, London is one hour ahead of Accra.
London is observing Summer Hours (Daylight Saving Time).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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wise

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2020, 11:24:30 PM »
Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again  :o

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later
Local time. Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta.
They are in different time zones.

London 06:47
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=9&year=2020

Accra 05:50
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ghana/accra?month=9&year=2020
Similarly, London is one hour ahead of Accra.
London is observing Summer Hours (Daylight Saving Time).
Rubbish.

Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta already means They are in different time zones. You are not telling anything different than what I am told. Is it really required to repeat what I am telling as an argument against me? How funny you are.
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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2020, 06:17:05 AM »
No matter how big it is, an extremely distanct light sourch cannot touch more than 50% of a sphere.
Pure nonsense.
Simple geometry proves it.

Well I thought to myself, hmm, simple geometry? Let's have a go then...



You can see straight away, from the diagram, that the sun illuminates more than 50% of the earth, through simple geometry.

The angle θ represents the extra amount illuminated.

With a bit of luck and so long as I don't make a silly mistake, we can can calculate this angle.

TL;DR; The answer is about 1/2 degree, but if you want to, read on...

Notice the angle ∠acb which I've labelled φ.

We see the same angle appearing several times:

∠acb = ∠aed = ∠aef = ∠ceg = φ

So ∠aef + ∠ceg + θ = 180

Therefore θ = 180 - 2φ

i.e. if we find φ, we can find θ

Now tan φ = ab/bc. We know bc, that's the sun's radius. If we can work out ab, we can work out φ, which will lead us to θ.

Triangles abc and ade are similar which means the lengths of the sides are proportional, so ab/ad = bc/de

And ab = ad + db

Therefore (ad + db)/ad = bc/de

Therefore 1 + db/ad = bc/de

Therefore ad = db / (bc/de - 1)

Therefore ab = db + (db / (bc/de - 1))


So tan φ = (db + (db / (bc/de - 1)))/bc

Which simplifies nicely to tan φ = db / (bc - de)

And φ = tan-1 (db / (bc - de))

So θ = 180 - 2(tan-1 (db / (bc - de)))

Now bc is the radius of the sun, db is the earth-sun distance and de is the radius of the earth, so plugging all the figures in we get θ = 0.53 degrees.

So if I haven't messed up, that means we get around 0.5 degrees extra illuminated.

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markjo

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2020, 01:24:09 PM »
Hong Kong is one hour ahead of Jakarta already means They are in different time zones. You are not telling anything different than what I am told. Is it really required to repeat what I am telling as an argument against me? How funny you are.
Then why ask the question if you already know the answer?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Danang

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2020, 05:59:40 PM »
Thanks for your inputs even though some of those are contradictory ✌

Let's go to Hong Kong with longitude 114 E.
The true GMT +8 lies at longitude 120 E.
1° equals 60 minutes/15° = 4 minutes.
Longitude difference between the true +8 GMT AKA longitude 120 E AND Hong Kong equals 120° - 114° = 6° AKA 24 minutes of sunray travel.
Globe calculation gives 6° - 0.75° = 5.25° AKA 21 minutes of sunray travel after 06:00.
So Hong Kong sunrives is supposed to be at 06:21 AM.

I still have some issues about globe, but let me see your answer first. 👌

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hoppy

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2020, 06:16:38 PM »
hmm....
The curious thing is the bot dutifully responding.
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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2020, 06:23:20 PM »
Thanks for your inputs even though some of those are contradictory ✌

Let's go to Hong Kong with longitude 114 E.
The true GMT +8 lies at longitude 120 E.
1° equals 60 minutes/15° = 4 minutes.
Longitude difference between the true +8 GMT AKA longitude 120 E AND Hong Kong equals 120° - 114° = 6° AKA 24 minutes of sunray travel.
Globe calculation gives 6° - 0.75° = 5.25° AKA 21 minutes of sunray travel after 06:00.
So Hong Kong sunrives is supposed to be at 06:21 AM.

Time zone boundaries are set by governments based on various popular, practical, and political considerations. If you look at a timezone map, you will see E-W and diagonal segments of boundary lines instead of to the pure N-S boundaries they all would ideally have. For an extreme example, look at Iceland. For an even more ridiculous example, essentially all of China is a single time zone (it "should" be four). Neither of these says anything about the shape of the earth; in the case of China, the reason this is so is purely political.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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rabinoz

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2020, 06:27:10 PM »
hmm....
The curious thing is the bot dutifully responding.
Sure, we've noted that the bot, hoppy, so predictably pipes up any says nothing of value.

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markjo

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2020, 06:27:25 PM »
Thanks for your inputs even though some of those are contradictory ✌
If you think that time zones strictly follow longitude lines (like they logically should), then that's your problem, not ours.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2020, 06:35:28 PM »
Thanks for your inputs even though some of those are contradictory
No, there are no contradictions at all.
Instead we just have you repeatedly ignoring time zones.

The sheer number of times you ignore it shows that it isn't a case of you just making a mistake.

Globe calculation gives 6° - 0.75° = 5.25° AKA 21 minutes of sunray travel after 06:00.
No, it doesn't.
That only works if you assume the sun should rise at exactly 6 am on an exact multiple of 15 degrees.

The only time such a calculation would be meaningful is comparing 2 locations with the same latitude and altitude. Not comparing it to an arbitrary point you say should be at 6 am.
It also requires the equinox to last an entire day, rather than being a single point in time. Better comparisons would be at the solstice, when the change in day length is shortest, not longest.
At the equinox, in Hong Kong, the length of the day was changing by over 1 minute each day. So that is an extra ~40 seconds of uncertainty to add to any values based upon sunrise and sunset times.

Again, due to Earth's orbit not being a perfect circle, and due to Earth's axis being tilted, the length of a solar day will not be 24 hours. Instead it will vary throughout the year, with the solar time sometimes being ahead or behind a "standardised" solar time where each day is taken as 24 hours.

If you want to have a meaningful comparison between different latitudes or altitudes, you need to focus on solar noon, not sunrise.
This is because sunrise is also affected by latitude and altitude. If you are on the top of a tall mountain, sunrise will be earlier and sunset will be later.
If you are at a more northern latitude, then as long as it isn't winter (or on the winter side of the equinox), then sunrise will be earlier and sunset will be later.

So if we make an honest comparison, we have London, at roughly 0 degrees east, with solar noon at 1153 UTC, being 8 arcminutes west of the "#true UTC0".
Now Hong Kong, being 114 degrees and 11 arcminutes east, puts it 5 degrees and 49 arc minutes west of "#true UTC+8", or an extra 5 degrees and 41 arc minutes.
Those 5 degrees account for 20 minutes, and with each degree being 4 minutes, each arcminute is 4 seconds, so those 41 arc minutes mean 164 seconds or roughly 3 minutes, bringing our total to roughly 23 minutes.

Also note that these values are reported to the nearest minute so you have plus or minus half a minute for each value. And with it only being 164 seconds rather than 180, it should be on the lower side.

So that means solar noon in Hong Kong should be around 1153+23 minutes UTC8, i.e. within a minute or so of 1216 UTC+8.
Now what is it? 12:15.
So well within the uncertainty of the reported values.
The day before the equinox UK still has solar noon at 1153 UTC0, and Hong Kong has it at 1216 UTC+8

So in quite good agreement with the globe.

In fact, just picking any random time, like today, we have London having solar noon at 1205 UTC+0, and thus Hong Kong should be around 1228 UTC+8, and what is it? 12:27.


Now we can also do a rough approximation based upon sunrise and sunset times, but that will be off due to sunrise and sunset depending on the latitude.
Again, on the equinox, we have sunrise in London at 0547 UTC0.
In Hong Kong, we have it at 0612 UTC+8.
This is a difference of 25 minutes. Not bad when you have the expected 23 minutes for difference in longitude from the "reference", and London being at a more northern latitude, and the uncertainty of roughly a minute from the rounding of the values, and the uncertainty of a minute from the change in day length in Hong Kong, and the uncertainty of 2 minutes for the change in day length for London.

Doing the same for sunset we have 1757 UTC0 for london and 1819 for Hong Kong. This time, 22 minutes.
Just like one might expect, the difference is larger for sunrise than sunset. As sunrise should occur earlier and sunset should occur later for the more nothern London.
And as the equinox is at 9:30 pm in Hong Kong, the difference between actual and "reference" time differences should be larger for the morning. But with all the uncertainty, we can't tell which is actually the bigger difference.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 06:38:16 PM by JackBlack »

Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2020, 12:54:35 AM »
Thanks for your inputs even though some of those are contradictory ✌

Let's go to Hong Kong with longitude 114 E.
The true GMT +8 lies at longitude 120 E.
1° equals 60 minutes/15° = 4 minutes.
Longitude difference between the true +8 GMT AKA longitude 120 E AND Hong Kong equals 120° - 114° = 6° AKA 24 minutes of sunray travel.
Globe calculation gives 6° - 0.75° = 5.25° AKA 21 minutes of sunray travel after 06:00.
So Hong Kong sunrives is supposed to be at 06:21 AM.

I still have some issues about globe, but let me see your answer first. 👌

You'd find everything so much easier if you converted everything to GMT from whatever time zone they are in (don't forget to deal with DST). That way you'd be comparing like with like.

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Danang

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2020, 08:28:19 PM »
Okay those are your opinions, different arguments and changing prepositions, not to mention misinterpretation of my clear post.

Anyways, while you said your globe system works well, it's already found out that timeanddate.com's tables doesn't work.

Even the killer phenomenon of Solar Noon time ain't match to places with 15° multiplication of longitudes. Solar noon time ain't at 12:00

Wondering what's your answer about it.
But don't change again okay?  8)

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JackBlack

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Re: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2020, 02:05:56 AM »
Okay those are your opinions, different arguments and changing prepositions, not to mention misinterpretation of my clear post.
No, they are not opinions. They are facts. Facts you choose to ignore to pretend there is a problem for the globe.

Even the killer phenomenon of Solar Noon time ain't match to places with 15° multiplication of longitudes. Solar noon time ain't at 12:00
Yes, just like I said.
Solar noon drifts throughout the year.
As Earth's orbit is elliptical and Earth's axis is tilted, solar noon varies.

Again, this isn't a problem for the globe, it is a problem of you ignoring reality.

As an example, focusing on Earth's orbit. Earth rotates about its axis once every 23 hours and 56 minutes.
If we were not orbiting the sun, this would give us a day length of 23 hours and 56 minutes and 4 seconds.
But we are orbiting the sun.
If our orbit was perfectly circular and lasted exactly 365.2425 days (24 hour periods), then in 24 hours, Earth will have rotated ~360.99 degrees. This is more than 1 full rotation, so without the orbit around the sun, it would be later in the day.
But we have moved ~0.99 degrees in our orbit. This then results in the sun appearing to have circled us exactly once during those 24 hours.

But again, that is with a perfectly circular orbit.
Our orbit is not a perfect circle.
Instead our orbit is an ellipse, where we trace out the same area in a given time period.
That means when we are closer to the sun, we are travelling faster in our orbit and thus Earth needs to turn more to realign with the sun. That means each solar day is longer than 24 hours, and thus solar noon drifts to a later time. (as the time between each is more than 24 hours)
Then when we are further from the sun, we have the opposite, with Earth needing to rotate less, meaning solar noon is earlier each day.

That means solar noon doesn't always occur at 12:00. Instead it drifts.

Again, the pages you used even have a nice diagram showing that drift.

You ignoring that to pretend there is a problem just shows you have no case.