How would gravity work if the earth was flat?

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How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« on: May 08, 2016, 11:30:57 AM »
Hello everybody!
I have a question: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
Logically gravity would only pull you perfectly down when you are in the middle of the earth, cause gravity would pull you to the middle of the earth, so if you where in South-Africa it would feel like you where climbing at about a 45 angle.
So can anyone tell me how this would work out if the earth was flat?
Greetings, Kermit The Frog

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2016, 01:09:51 PM »
I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please. 

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 01:28:52 PM »
Hello everybody!
I have a question: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
Logically gravity would only pull you perfectly down when you are in the middle of the earth, cause gravity would pull you to the middle of the earth, so if you where in South-Africa it would feel like you where climbing at about a 45 angle.
So can anyone tell me how this would work out if the earth was flat?
Greetings, Kermit The Frog

Kermit knows about the universal accelerator, I THINK YOU ARE AN IMPOSTER!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rabinoz

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2016, 01:34:30 PM »
Hello everybody!
I have a question: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
Logically gravity would only pull you perfectly down when you are in the middle of the earth, cause gravity would pull you to the middle of the earth, so if you where in South-Africa it would feel like you where climbing at about a 45 angle.
So can anyone tell me how this would work out if the earth was flat?
Greetings, Kermit The Frog

Kermit knows about the universal accelerator, I THINK YOU ARE AN IMPOSTER!

But even Kermit has enough sense to know that UA cannot explain gravitation for the numerous reasons that have been given in past posts!

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2016, 02:54:51 PM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2016, 03:00:36 PM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet? 

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2016, 03:10:22 PM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

rabinoz

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2016, 05:02:06 PM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.

You omitted jroa's main task - "Professional Derailer".

He is never able to show that the Einstein's EP could validly applied to the whole of the Flat Earth.  Here is a bit of a post I made on the matter.
If I am not mistaken the OP was: "Universal Acceleration Debunked: Equivalence Does Not Apply"

Numerous times I has made posts to the effect:
In its simplest from the FET uses the Equivalence Principle to replace the gravitational field observed on the earth's surface.  I contend that this is not a valid application of the Equivalence Principle.

I have I believe fully justified that statement in this post:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65151.msg1740321#msg1740321
Which reaches the conclusion:
As a result this the concept of Universal Acceleration can replace a gravitational field only if the reference system (the whole earth) is sufficiently small for the gravitational field to be considered constant over the whole system.

This is clearly not satisfied, so the concept of Universal Acceleration cannot be be used to replace the gravitational field.
and shows quite clearly that UA is simply an invalid substitute for the observe "gravitational field".

In numerous posts I have presented arguments that the whole idea of the Flat Earth is based on fallacy, and so far there have been no serious attempts to refute these arguments.
If no-one bothers to challenge these ideas I guess we are forced to the conclusion the whole Flat Earth Society is just a debating club and not really interested in the whether the concept of a Flat Earth is even feasible.

So, the question seems to be, who cares!

I took these arguments to someone quite highly placed in this Society, because he had NEVER countered these arguments - he always side-stepped them. I got a bit frustrated and PMed him. The answer was basically that he had no counter to these arguments.

The Equivalence Principle cannot be validly applied to the Flat Earth.

Maybe someone will actually counter my claim here!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 06:54:29 PM by rabinoz »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2016, 05:13:37 PM »
Congratulations on your high placement, jroa.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2016, 07:12:29 PM »
I took these arguments to someone quite highly placed in this Society, because he had NEVER countered these arguments - he always side-stepped them. I got a bit frustrated and PMed him. The answer was basically that he had no counter to these arguments.

Congratulations on your high placement, jroa.

Even Flat Earthers recognize him by his content-dodging track record lol. :P
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

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rabinoz

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2016, 09:34:25 PM »
I took these arguments to someone quite highly placed in this Society, because he had NEVER countered these arguments - he always side-stepped them. I got a bit frustrated and PMed him. The answer was basically that he had no counter to these arguments.

Congratulations on your high placement, jroa.

Even Flat Earthers recognize him by his content-dodging track record lol. :P

Don't be mistaken, don't be mislead, when I said "someone quite highly placed in this Society" I would never think of the janitor!
I was meaning someone who was quite knowledgeable on GR.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 02:35:37 AM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.

B-but, what if the Earth is not a planet?  Where does your argument go then? 

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 05:01:44 AM »
Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.
B-but, what if the Earth is not a planet?  Where does your argument go then?
Earth's being a planet has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. This is evidence of gravity independent of that.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 05:04:56 AM »
Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.
B-but, what if the Earth is not a planet?  Where does your argument go then?
Earth's being a planet has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. This is evidence of gravity independent of that.

Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.   

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 05:19:50 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 05:54:47 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?

OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 05:58:31 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 06:06:53 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.

Do the other planets have life on them?  Do they have liquid oceans?  Do the have blue skies?  It would appear to me that the Earth is not like the other planets.

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 06:49:34 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.

Do the other planets have life on them?  Do they have liquid oceans?  Do the have blue skies?  It would appear to me that the Earth is not like the other planets.
Surface contents =/= properties

RET mathematics has found the sun to be just the right distance away to not kill life and boil the oceans away while FET instead assumes the sun is the right temperature for the same effect, and the color of the sky is based on atmospheric contents in RET and the Firmament in FET. So life, oceans, and the color of the sky would naturally vary drastically by location, and are all completely unrelated to why things are held to Earth's surface no matter which model you follow, therefore none of these things are valid evidence either way and should be ignored in this particular discussion.

Any actual information on how the "downward force" could vary near ore deposits and mountains or how moons and rings could stay in orbit around the other planets if gravity didn't exist?
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 06:53:56 AM »
Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.

Do the other planets have life on them?  Do they have liquid oceans?  Do the have blue skies?  It would appear to me that the Earth is not like the other planets.
Surface contents =/= properties

RET mathematics has found the sun to be just the right distance away to not kill life and boil the oceans away while FET instead assumes the sun is the right temperature for the same effect, and the color of the sky is based on atmospheric contents in RET and the Firmament in FET. So life, oceans, and the color of the sky would naturally vary drastically by location, and are all completely unrelated to why things are held to Earth's surface no matter which model you follow, therefore none of these things are valid evidence either way and should be ignored in this particular discussion.

Any actual information on how the "downward force" could vary near ore deposits and mountains or how moons and rings could stay in orbit around the other planets if gravity didn't exist?

Wow, great non response.  Did you pull that straight out of the shill book, or did you come up with that garbage on your own? 

Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 07:08:58 AM »
<Logical demonstration that your response is irrelevant to the question being considered.>

<Reminder that we're talking about gravity/UA here.>
Wow, great non response.  Did you pull that straight out of the shill book, or did you come up with that garbage on your own? 
That was absolutely not a non-response, it addressed everything you said.
It was absolutely not "straight out of the shill book" because my point was that what you said doesn't support or refute either theory.
It was absolutely not garbage seeing as it's perfectly clear that nothing you said has anything to do with this thread.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Luke 22:35-38

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 05:53:16 PM »

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.

B-but, what if the Earth is not a planet?  Where does your argument go then?

If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 06:02:27 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning. 

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 06:28:44 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2016, 06:31:02 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears. 

*

Luke 22:35-38

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  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2016, 06:46:43 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears.

It's been proven many times.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65775.0
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2016, 06:59:13 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears.

It's been proven many times.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65775.0

You linked to a post on the flat Earth society in which the OP talks about air pressure, not gravity.  Is this really the proof that you want to present for the existence of gravity? 

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 08:00:39 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears.

It's been proven many times.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65775.0

You linked to a post on the flat Earth society in which the OP talks about air pressure, not gravity.  Is this really the proof that you want to present for the existence of gravity?

Ok then. How come I'm lighter on top of a mountain but heavier at sea level if we are under UA?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2016, 08:10:27 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears.

It's been proven many times.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65775.0

You linked to a post on the flat Earth society in which the OP talks about air pressure, not gravity.  Is this really the proof that you want to present for the existence of gravity?

Ok then. How come I'm lighter on top of a mountain but heavier at sea level if we are under UA?

Are you lighter?  I suppose I will just have to take your word for it, just as you took someone else's word for it.  Perhaps you can dig up some Empirical Evidence instead of Hypothetical Evidence?  That would be great. 

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3598
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: How would gravity work if the earth was flat?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 08:26:10 PM »
If the planets act according to what we predict about gravity, proving that it exists, then earth must obey the same law. The universe is run by a republic. The law is supreme.

That is a big IF.  In fact, I would say that your statement is an example of circular reasoning.

There are other ways to prove the existence of gravity.

Go ahead and prove away.  I am all ears.

It's been proven many times.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65775.0

You linked to a post on the flat Earth society in which the OP talks about air pressure, not gravity.  Is this really the proof that you want to present for the existence of gravity?

Ok then. How come I'm lighter on top of a mountain but heavier at sea level if we are under UA?

Are you lighter?  I suppose I will just have to take your word for it, just as you took someone else's word for it.  Perhaps you can dig up some Empirical Evidence instead of Hypothetical Evidence?  That would be great.

It's an experiment you can prove yourself. Weigh yourself at sea level and then weigh yourself on a mountain. Besides if gravity doesn't exist then how do you explain the planets? What type of force they have? Another thing is if UA exists then planes and birds can't take off. The earth would smack up on the plane.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.