Galactic Rotational Speeds

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Galactic Rotational Speeds
« on: April 06, 2016, 04:06:36 PM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.


For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''


That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

When people make fun of Newton for having his Universe held together by God, this is the kinda stuff they are talking about guys. The round earth universe is held together by faith in that curve fit. Magellan once said "The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow of the earth on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than the Church" Our reply? I'd sooner put my faith in a Flat Earth than put it in the ridiculous notion that 96% of the universe is unaccounted for to account for a dying theory - that the earth is round. Hell at that rate, I'd sooner put my faith in a Potato.

That's a bit more than just forgetting where your keys are in the morning, I'd say.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 04:08:50 PM by John Davis »
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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 04:37:30 PM »
It is quite entertaing to see what these roundies come up with next.   It is almost like there are scientists who get paid just to make up rediculous theories.  Oh, wait, they are called Theoretical Physicists.  lol

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 05:39:31 PM »
Quote from: John Hapden
Government is paying large salaries for anything and everything the Professors choose to say... Honest and honourable men are starving by hundreds from Government economy . . . and it becomes us more than ever to see that men already abounding in wealth (made at our expense) really teach truth in their several departments of science and philosophy.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 09:08:41 PM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.
Apparently, MOND is getting more attention from the scientific community than you might think.
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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 09:52:49 PM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

(...)

That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

There was a current theory. An observation could not be explained by that theory (it was "falsified"). A new theory was devised that explains all previous observations plus the new one. Where is your problem?

Dark matter is an explanation for an observable effect. It is no more "invented" than any other matter in this regard. I haven't ever seen you personally, let alone have observed your sentience directly. That is merely an explanation for the observation that there is someone posting that isn't me. Are you therefore "invented"? Is you sentience?

If you think another theoy explains the observation better, more power to you. It doesn't follow that the current theory is unscientific though.

On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

Mathematics aren't part of empirical science. They're part of logic, which is part of philosophy, which is part of the human consciousness. Math isn't something external that's "out there" in the world. It's purely a form (as in a shape) of thinking. Obviously a form of thinking cannot be proven by the things that are thought by it, nor by any observation of the outside world. It merely is, just like logic.

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2016, 01:25:55 AM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.


For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''


That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

When people make fun of Newton for having his Universe held together by God, this is the kinda stuff they are talking about guys. The round earth universe is held together by faith in that curve fit. Magellan once said "The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow of the earth on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than the Church" Our reply? I'd sooner put my faith in a Flat Earth than put it in the ridiculous notion that 96% of the universe is unaccounted for to account for a dying theory - that the earth is round. Hell at that rate, I'd sooner put my faith in a Potato.

That's a bit more than just forgetting where your keys are in the morning, I'd say.
What did all the experimenters from Cavendish to the present day actually measure? Strangely they did get pretty consistent results considering the sensitivity of the experiment. Even Cavendish was within about 1% of the value of "G" currently used.
Maybe we don't know exactly the "cause" of gravitation, but we know a lot about how it behaves.
Some have asked "How can gravitation act over a distance in a vacuum?". 
Well, "How can electromagnetic forces act over a distance in a vacuum?" Why is there a significant difference?

The only reason I can see for there being a mystery with gravitation is that it so incredibly weak.

But, to round all this all off what all the material you present to do with the shape of the Earth?
The Earth has been measured quite accurately.
These measurements have been known for hundreds of years and they show that the Earth is not flat!
If you really think the Earth is flat, please come up with a map that shows countries and continents the correct shape and size.
 

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2016, 07:20:42 AM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

(...)

That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

There was a current theory. An observation could not be explained by that theory (it was "falsified"). A new theory was devised that explains all previous observations plus the new one. Where is your problem?
No, an ad hoc explanation was devised. That is the problem. One can make anything seem true with the right ad hoc. Just look at some of the flat earth trolls at the worse forum site.
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Dark matter is an explanation for an observable effect. It is no more "invented" than any other matter in this regard.
Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power. Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

Quote
I haven't ever seen you personally, let alone have observed your sentience directly. That is merely an explanation for the observation that there is someone posting that isn't me. Are you therefore "invented"? Is you sentience?
I imagine your belief on the matter would depend on how much evidence you have that I exist (photos, google results, so on.) I wouldn't assume I exist without actually having any proof. Of course, the case of me is different. I don't account for 96% of the mass in the universe. Its fairly harmless to assume I exist.

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If you think another theoy explains the observation better, more power to you. It doesn't follow that the current theory is unscientific though.
If we are to believe in 'method' as it is taught and usually as it is studied, then it does follow from the fact its an ad hoc explanation, not following Ockham's Razor, and so on. Popper explicitly warns us about ad hocs and their tendency pages away from where falsification is introduced.

Quote
On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

Mathematics aren't part of empirical science. They're part of logic, which is part of philosophy, which is part of the human consciousness. Math isn't something external that's "out there" in the world. It's purely a form (as in a shape) of thinking. Obviously a form of thinking cannot be proven by the things that are thought by it, nor by any observation of the outside world. It merely is, just like logic.
Well you are going to say that without evidence? I appreciate your opinion, though it is an open discussion (mainly the question of pure mathematics vs otherwise.) I do agree theoretically, in that you can do science without math, but you must agree in practice the two are so intertwined it would be difficult if not impossible to separate. IT would be hard to imagine the situation that would force such a separation to happen even.

Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.


For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''


That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

When people make fun of Newton for having his Universe held together by God, this is the kinda stuff they are talking about guys. The round earth universe is held together by faith in that curve fit. Magellan once said "The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow of the earth on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than the Church" Our reply? I'd sooner put my faith in a Flat Earth than put it in the ridiculous notion that 96% of the universe is unaccounted for to account for a dying theory - that the earth is round. Hell at that rate, I'd sooner put my faith in a Potato.

That's a bit more than just forgetting where your keys are in the morning, I'd say.
What did all the experimenters from Cavendish to the present day actually measure? Strangely they did get pretty consistent results considering the sensitivity of the experiment. Even Cavendish was within about 1% of the value of "G" currently used.
...
The only reason I can see for there being a mystery with gravitation is that it so incredibly weak.

But, to round all this all off what all the material you present to do with the shape of the Earth?
The Earth has been measured quite accurately.
These measurements have been known for hundreds of years and they show that the Earth is not flat!
If you really think the Earth is flat, please come up with a map that shows countries and continents the correct shape and size.
 
You'll actually have to provide evidence if you want me to address your claims. I have already come up with a map that shows them as the correct size. Several over the years. A bit aside the point though. You can't account for 96% of your universe (essentially making your universe held together by god) and you are worried over a map? I'm not the one who over-extended my knowledge to attempt make a Genesis story and make statements about the entire universe - that was the roundies.

It is not enough to simply say "these measurements have been known for hundreds of years."  What measurements? How do they show the earth is not flat, in how do they conclusively prove it wrong?
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.
Apparently, MOND is getting more attention from the scientific community than you might think.
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Its starting to happen. That would be nice to see. It wasn't long ago they mocked MODN. That is if someone doesn't invent another ridiculous theory based on suspect mathematics like String Theory that strokes the academics egos more by its complexity.

Though, I wouldn't put any weight in what Neil says. He constantly and repeatedly makes mistakes, lies, and misquotations both within his field and outside of his field to push his agenda. He's basically the Richard Dawkins of Astrophysics. Have you ever watched the new Cosmos? Its a joke. One runaway hypothesis after another.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2016, 12:27:19 PM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

(...)

That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.
Quote
There was a current theory. An observation could not be explained by that theory (it was "falsified"). A new theory was devised that explains all previous observations plus the new one. Where is your problem?
No, an ad hoc explanation was devised. That is the problem. One can make anything seem true with the right ad hoc. Just look at some of the flat earth trolls at the worse forum site.

"Unseen matter" is the typical starting point to explain unexpected perturbations in orbits (after the perturbations have been confirmed, that is). Sometimes it works, and the previously-unrecognized matter is found (e.g. Neptune) and sometimes it doesn't work, which can lead to a new or more complete model for gravitation, as in the case of the precession of Mercury's orbit, which was due to relativistic effects and unaccounted for by Newtonian (or "classical") mechanics. Newtonian mechanics worked well enough for objects on earth and most of the objects in the solar system, but with Mercury's proximity to the very massive Sun, the difference between relativistic and classical mechanics was significant enough to be noticed. It's now recognized that classical mechanics, while accurate enough for most situations, was less complete than relativistic mechanics. It may turn out that relativistic mechanics are not complete enough to describe the motion of galaxies, and another model may be necessary. Or, now that they know to look for previously unseen mass, they may find it. The jury is still out on this one.

This is how science works. When there's a difference between predictions and observation, find out why. Occasionally it's because the model itself isn't good enough, sometimes it's because something previously undiscovered is causing the earlier prediction to be wrong.

Quote
Quote
Dark matter is an explanation for an observable effect. It is no more "invented" than any other matter in this regard.
Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power.

Not really. We hypothesize it's there because of the observable effect it has on ordinary matter and light. At any rate, it's only recently that we knew that it may be there and are beginning to look for it in other ways.

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Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

Nope. Russel's Teapot argument relies on the presumption that there are no observable effects due to its existence. We already know that something is going on due to the effects we can and do see. What that something is has not yet been determined.

Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.

Calm down. Dark matter is simply a working hypothesis, no more than that. The possibility that a more complete model for gravitation may be necessary is quite real. No actual scientist claims that we know everything.

Quote
For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''

Actually, no, it's not. The large (96-point) dot has 24 times the diameter of the small (4-point) dot, but 576 times the area, so those represent proportions of about 0.17% and 99.83%, respectively, not 4% and 96%.
The comparison you really mean is and .
If those represent spheres, then it's and .

And even that presumes the 4%/96% ratio is correct, which it's not. It's more like 15% and 85% for ordinary and dark matter, respectively, so the comparison is:
and (area), or
and (volume).

I'm going to presume you were simply mistaken rather than deliberately deceptive about the sizes of the dots in your comparison and the incorrect ratio you go on and on about.

Though, I wouldn't put any weight in what Neil says. He constantly and repeatedly makes mistakes, lies, and misquotations both within his field and outside of his field to push his agenda.

Oh, the irony.
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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2016, 01:46:05 PM »
No, an ad hoc explanation was devised. That is the problem. One can make anything seem true with the right ad hoc. Just look at some of the flat earth trolls at the worse forum site.

Define an ad-hoc explanation vs. as actual explanation, because this sounds a bit like a false dichotomy. From what you write I assume "ad-hoc" in this context means the explanation is only used in this one case as special pleading but doesn't interlock with other theories. If so, explain how that is the case with dark matter.

Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power. Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

The rotational speed of galaxies is an observation.

I imagine your belief on the matter would depend on how much evidence you have that I exist (photos, google results, so on.) I wouldn't assume I exist without actually having any proof. Of course, the case of me is different. I don't account for 96% of the mass in the universe. Its fairly harmless to assume I exist.

So you assume everyone around you is a figment of your imagination unless you have a significant amont of evidence? In any event, this isn't how empirical knowledge works. You can only ever decide what the best explanation for your current observations is. Nature doesn't come with a pre-defined standard of proof that you could compare against. If there isn't a better theory, that's what you have to use, even if it's just based on a single lousy observation.

If we are to believe in 'method' as it is taught and usually as it is studied, then it does follow from the fact its an ad hoc explanation, not following Ockham's Razor, and so on. Popper explicitly warns us about ad hocs and their tendency pages away from where falsification is introduced.

It would be nice if you could explain your arguments instead of making vague allusions to a source. I cannot make out what you are trying to say here.

Well you are going to say that without evidence? I appreciate your opinion, though it is an open discussion (mainly the question of pure mathematics vs otherwise.) I do agree theoretically, in that you can do science without math, but you must agree in practice the two are so intertwined it would be difficult if not impossible to separate. IT would be hard to imagine the situation that would force such a separation to happen even.

How am I supposed to provide you with evidence on how your consciousness works? I can only tell you how I think it works, you'll have to decide whether that is accurate yourself. But I think you have misunderstood me. I don't say that science is possible without math. I meant to say that math, as an extension of logic, is part of how we humans think, part of how our understaning of the outside world works. Since sience is thought by us, it is also thought about in the form of math. But as a form of thinking, math is quite impossible to prove by thinking. A thought can not prove itself except by simply being, to use a crude analogy.

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 07:49:25 AM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

(...)

That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.
Quote
There was a current theory. An observation could not be explained by that theory (it was "falsified"). A new theory was devised that explains all previous observations plus the new one. Where is your problem?
No, an ad hoc explanation was devised. That is the problem. One can make anything seem true with the right ad hoc. Just look at some of the flat earth trolls at the worse forum site.

"Unseen matter" is the typical starting point to explain unexpected perturbations in orbits (after the perturbations have been confirmed, that is).
A little more reasonable when its planet sized. When its the size of 96% of the universe? Nope. Thats not typical at all.
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Sometimes it works, and the previously-unrecognized matter is found (e.g. Neptune) and sometimes it doesn't work, which can lead to a new or more complete model for gravitation, as in the case of the precession of Mercury's orbit, which was due to relativistic effects and unaccounted for by Newtonian (or "classical") mechanics. Newtonian mechanics worked well enough for objects on earth and most of the objects in the solar system, but with Mercury's proximity to the very massive Sun, the difference between relativistic and classical mechanics was significant enough to be noticed. It's now recognized that classical mechanics, while accurate enough for most situations, was less complete than relativistic mechanics. It may turn out that relativistic mechanics are not complete enough to describe the motion of galaxies, and another model may be necessary. Or, now that they know to look for previously unseen mass, they may find it. The jury is still out on this one.

This is how science works. When there's a difference between predictions and observation, find out why. Occasionally it's because the model itself isn't good enough, sometimes it's because something previously undiscovered is causing the earlier prediction to be wrong.
Finally I get a roundie to admit the scientific process works based off of ad hoc hypotheses, rather than it being damned in traditional teachings of scientific method.
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Quote
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Dark matter is an explanation for an observable effect. It is no more "invented" than any other matter in this regard.
Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power.

Not really. We hypothesize it's there because of the observable effect it has on ordinary matter and light. At any rate, it's only recently that we knew that it may be there and are beginning to look for it in other ways.

Quote
Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

Nope. Russel's Teapot argument relies on the presumption that there are no observable effects due to its existence. We already know that something is going on due to the effects we can and do see. What that something is has not yet been determined.
Actually it relies on the presumption that it is not falsifiable. I would argue dark matter is not and that it is an ad hoc hypothesis.
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Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.

Calm down. Dark matter is simply a working hypothesis, no more than that. The possibility that a more complete model for gravitation may be necessary is quite real. No actual scientist claims that we know everything.
Except every few months NASA claims to have discovered it. Despite not having discovered it.
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Quote
For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''

Actually, no, it's not. The large (96-point) dot has 24 times the diameter of the small (4-point) dot, but 576 times the area, so those represent proportions of about 0.17% and 99.83%, respectively, not 4% and 96%.
The comparison you really mean is and .
If those represent spheres, then it's and .

And even that presumes the 4%/96% ratio is correct, which it's not. It's more like 15% and 85% for ordinary and dark matter, respectively, so the comparison is:
and (area), or
and (volume).

I'm going to presume you were simply mistaken rather than deliberately deceptive about the sizes of the dots in your comparison and the incorrect ratio you go on and on about.

Though, I wouldn't put any weight in what Neil says. He constantly and repeatedly makes mistakes, lies, and misquotations both within his field and outside of his field to push his agenda.

Oh, the irony.
Some sources say 96%. Others even go as high as 99%. I have seen the 85% number too. If you don't like me using your guys numbers, or if your guys numbers aren't consistent, I hardly see how that is my problem. I'm not to interested in trying to correct your sides sources when they guess two different numbers for their imaginary universe.  However, Whether you invented 20% of the universe, 50% of the universe, 80% of the universe or 96% of the universe is not the point. All of these numbers are ridiculous and yet we can't see it at all, as if it were the size of a teapot.

Obviously the illustration was aimed more at comprehension than at accuracy. However, since you can't find fault in what I said content wise, I guess the indoctrinated mind will tend to attack any small error instead. The difference between me and Neil is that I'm judging him by his own standards, and you aren't judging me by mine. He's the one that said being wrong and being able to influence people is dangerous. Not me.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 08:06:40 AM »
No, an ad hoc explanation was devised. That is the problem. One can make anything seem true with the right ad hoc. Just look at some of the flat earth trolls at the worse forum site.

Define an ad-hoc explanation vs. as actual explanation, because this sounds a bit like a false dichotomy. From what you write I assume "ad-hoc" in this context means the explanation is only used in this one case as special pleading but doesn't interlock with other theories. If so, explain how that is the case with dark matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesis
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Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power. Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

The rotational speed of galaxies is an observation.
Yes, but the proposed cause is not. Its essentially a magic fairy we can't see and can't falsify. They might as well have said 'The Spaghetti Monster is holding it together'
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I imagine your belief on the matter would depend on how much evidence you have that I exist (photos, google results, so on.) I wouldn't assume I exist without actually having any proof. Of course, the case of me is different. I don't account for 96% of the mass in the universe. Its fairly harmless to assume I exist.

So you assume everyone around you is a figment of your imagination unless you have a significant amont of evidence? In any event, this isn't how empirical knowledge works. You can only ever decide what the best explanation for your current observations is. Nature doesn't come with a pre-defined standard of proof that you could compare against. If there isn't a better theory, that's what you have to use, even if it's just based on a single lousy observation.
A significant amount of evidence would be that they are around me in some way in this case - in other words I have *some* evidence of their existence. This is far different from 96% of the universe existing because somebody said so to get funding to line their fat pockets in their ivory towers of sin. There is no empirical knowledge that shows dark matter exists. None. So yeah, this isn't how empiricism works - you are right.
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If we are to believe in 'method' as it is taught and usually as it is studied, then it does follow from the fact its an ad hoc explanation, not following Ockham's Razor, and so on. Popper explicitly warns us about ad hocs and their tendency pages away from where falsification is introduced.

It would be nice if you could explain your arguments instead of making vague allusions to a source. I cannot make out what you are trying to say here.
It would be nice if you knew the most important modern work on Scientific Method before you attempt to discuss it. But hey, you can lead a roundie to a book, but you can't make him read it.
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Well you are going to say that without evidence? I appreciate your opinion, though it is an open discussion (mainly the question of pure mathematics vs otherwise.) I do agree theoretically, in that you can do science without math, but you must agree in practice the two are so intertwined it would be difficult if not impossible to separate. IT would be hard to imagine the situation that would force such a separation to happen even.

How am I supposed to provide you with evidence on how your consciousness works? I can only tell you how I think it works, you'll have to decide whether that is accurate yourself. But I think you have misunderstood me. I don't say that science is possible without math.
 I meant to say that math, as an extension of logic, is part of how we humans think, part of how our understaning of the outside world works. Since sience is thought by us, it is also thought about in the form of math. But as a form of thinking, math is quite impossible to prove by thinking. A thought can not prove itself except by simply being, to use a crude analogy.
Why do you think logic is an extension of how humans think? And why do you think it has anything to do with the outside world? Why do you think science is thought about in the form of math? How can math not prove itself when its entire validity is through its ability to prove itself? This are statements that need justification or at least argument.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 10:30:56 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesis

Thanks. That answers my first question, but not the follow ups. And I do note that nowhere does it say that an ad-hoc hypothesis is faulty method, just that it makes the theory more complex, which is a given.

Yes, but the proposed cause is not. Its essentially a magic fairy we can't see and can't falsify. They might as well have said 'The Spaghetti Monster is holding it together'

A cursory google resarch indicates that dark matter is falsifiable and quite a bit more complex than "magic fairy". But I am not qualified to argue the specifics.

About causes being observable: It depends on how exactly you define "cause", but we technically also don't observe the "cause" of ordinary matter either. All we observe are the effects of matter, but what "causes" this matter to exist we cannot observe, only deduce from the effects. Insofar as you mean dark matter isn't itself observable, it's not clear what you'd mean by that. Being invisible and being unobservable are different things.

A significant amount of evidence would be that they are around me in some way in this case - in other words I have *some* evidence of their existence. This is far different from 96% of the universe existing because somebody said so to get funding to line their fat pockets in their ivory towers of sin. There is no empirical knowledge that shows dark matter exists. None. So yeah, this isn't how empiricism works - you are right.

We have *some* evidence of dark matter. Again it is observable. You apparently deem the amount of observations insufficient, but haven't given any standard to measure them against, let alone an argument for your standard. You're also misusing the word "knowledge" in your second to last sentence. Knowledge doesn't "show" something exists, the more appropriate word would be "evidence", but then you'd just be repeating yourself.



It would be nice if you knew the most important modern work on Scientific Method before you attempt to discuss it. But hey, you can lead a roundie to a book, but you can't make him read it.

And it would also be nice if you'd stop evading my questions. Have you actually read the book? I am getting the impression you are unable to tell me what it actually says.

Why do you think logic is an extension of how humans think? And why do you think it has anything to do with the outside world? Why do you think science is thought about in the form of math? How can math not prove itself when its entire validity is through its ability to prove itself? This are statements that need justification or at least argument.

If I were to answer all these questions fully, I'd have to write a book. I could of course just tell you "go read Kant", but I am going to try to give an answer as best as I can.

Basically, if we look at where logic could come from, there are only two alternatives: Either we start out with logic, or we acquire logic from the outside world. Acquiring logic from the outside world is impossible, because a.) Our method for attaining knowledge alway depends on logic to work, and thus if we didn't already have it, it would be impossible to gain it; and b.) There is no way logic could be observed without already knowing what logic is. Thus, we start out with logic, and it is a basic form of thinking. It follows that it's not possible to prove logic, since it's not subject to empirical proof (it's not empirical in nature), and obviously logic cannot prove itself. Since math is a form of logic, just with numbers instead of words, the same applies (this is controversial, so if you have a different opinion, feel free to say so and we could discuss it).

As for your second question, I don't think logic or math have anything to do with the outside world. Or rather, they are shapes our brain molds the outside world into, but they don't originate from there.

The third answer is pretty much the same as the second. When understanding something, our consciousness takes outside information and integrates it into itself as knowledge. Doing so changes the "form", like a shape but not in the physical sense, of the information. That is why, when we look at the world (which is really just accessing our processed picture of the world), we see math everywhere. But that doesn't mean that math is actually part of the underlying reality. It could simply be part of ourselves. That is what I meant when I said that we "think about science in the form of math".

Your fourth question I don't fully understand. Do you mean that math (like logic) is only valid if it has a full chain of deduction and that this is impossible, since we will always have to arbitrarily set an axiom? If so, I simply don't agree. Logic in it's pure form doesn't actually contain any information. It's just different ways to structure a thought. It's categories may be arbitrary, but categories always are. Their value comes from applying them to an actual experience, not from their pure form. Logic is simply how our cosciousness happens to be structured. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to think things. Math, draws on that structure of thinking, but contains certain axioms which are synthetic a priori. Why we think math this way, we cannot say, just that we do. Lke logic, math needs to be applied correctly to the outside world in order to provide correct information. The fit will never be perfect. So the validity of math depends on correct application to the subject, not on it being correct (according to what?) in it's form.

Edit: I have modified the answer to the 4th question, I made a mistake here since math is synthetic a priori.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:04:22 AM by Ecthelion »

Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 02:24:46 PM »
"Unseen matter" is the typical starting point to explain unexpected perturbations in orbits (after the perturbations have been confirmed, that is).
A little more reasonable when its planet sized. When its the size of 96% of the universe? Nope. Thats not typical at all.

Your opinion of what is reasonable and what isn't reasonable is irrelevant.

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Sometimes it works, and the previously-unrecognized matter is found (e.g. Neptune) and sometimes it doesn't work, which can lead to a new or more complete model for gravitation, as in the case of the precession of Mercury's orbit, which was due to relativistic effects and unaccounted for by Newtonian (or "classical") mechanics. Newtonian mechanics worked well enough for objects on earth and most of the objects in the solar system, but with Mercury's proximity to the very massive Sun, the difference between relativistic and classical mechanics was significant enough to be noticed. It's now recognized that classical mechanics, while accurate enough for most situations, was less complete than relativistic mechanics. It may turn out that relativistic mechanics are not complete enough to describe the motion of galaxies, and another model may be necessary. Or, now that they know to look for previously unseen mass, they may find it. The jury is still out on this one.

This is how science works. When there's a difference between predictions and observation, find out why. Occasionally it's because the model itself isn't good enough, sometimes it's because something previously undiscovered is causing the earlier prediction to be wrong.
Finally I get a roundie to admit the scientific process works based off of ad hoc hypotheses, rather than it being damned in traditional teachings of scientific method.

Please show where I said this was "ad-hoc".

The scientific method in a nutshell: Observe a phenomenon. Construct a hypothesis. Design an experiment to test the hypothesis. If the experiment shows the hypothesis is wrong, discard or modify the hypothesis.

Are you suggesting that "Construct a hypothesis" means "wing it"?

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Dark matter is an explanation for an observable effect. It is no more "invented" than any other matter in this regard.
Except that by its definition it also happens to be outside our observational power.

Not really. We hypothesize it's there because of the observable effect it has on ordinary matter and light. At any rate, it's only recently that we knew that it may be there and are beginning to look for it in other ways.

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Making it essentially a Russel's Teapot.

Nope. Russel's Teapot argument relies on the presumption that there are no observable effects due to its existence. We already know that something is going on due to the effects we can and do see. What that something is has not yet been determined.
Actually it relies on the presumption that it is not falsifiable.

It's not falsifiable because it is presumed to have no observable effects. If it predicted observable effects and the effects were found to be missing, it could be falsified.

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I would argue dark matter is not [falsifiable]

Argue away. Why are you so sure the existence of dark matter is not falsifiable? Dark matter, as postulated, is "dark" because it doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation. It does have other effects, such as gravity, however. Several avenues of research are being pursued, including some that hypothesize that our current model for gravity is incomplete. I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp.

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and that it is an ad hoc hypothesis.

Are you saying any hypothesis is ad hoc? That seems to be your stance.

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Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater[sic] in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.

Calm down. Dark matter is simply a working hypothesis, no more than that. The possibility that a more complete model for gravitation may be necessary is quite real. No actual scientist claims that we know everything.
Except every few months NASA claims to have discovered it. Despite not having discovered it.

Citations (plural), please.

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For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''

Actually, no, it's not. The large (96-point) dot has 24 times the diameter of the small (4-point) dot, but 576 times the area, so those represent proportions of about 0.17% and 99.83%, respectively, not 4% and 96%.
The comparison you really mean is and .
If those represent spheres, then it's and .

And even that presumes the 4%/96% ratio is correct, which it's not. It's more like 15% and 85% for ordinary and dark matter, respectively, so the comparison is:
and (area), or
and (volume).

I'm going to presume you were simply mistaken rather than deliberately deceptive about the sizes of the dots in your comparison and the incorrect ratio you go on and on about.

Though, I wouldn't put any weight in what Neil says. He constantly and repeatedly makes mistakes, lies, and misquotations both within his field and outside of his field to push his agenda.

Oh, the irony.
Some sources say 96%. Others even go as high as 99%. I have seen the 85% number too. If you don't like me using your guys numbers, or if your guys numbers aren't consistent, I hardly see how that is my problem.
The 96% number applies to dark matter and the mass equivalent of dark energy. You explicitly said 96% of the matter (misspelled a couple quotes up as 'mater') is "invented".

You see numbers and just throw them around, apparently without understanding what they mean. That shows that you don't know what you're talking about, and that is a problem for you if you want credibility with any but the most gullible.

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I'm not to interested in trying to correct your sides sources

That's good because you don't seem to have a good enough grasp of the subject (or, apparently, the process) to be able to do so.

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when they guess two different numbers for their imaginary universe.  However, Whether you invented 20% of the universe, 50% of the universe, 80% of the universe or 96% of the universe is not the point.

Then why did you go to the effort to try to illustrate the relative magnitudes, but blow it, big time, in the process?
 
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All of these numbers are ridiculous and yet we can't see it at all, as if it were the size of a teapot.
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Um... no. If we couldn't see it at all, it wouldn't be hypothesized in the first place. We "see" it by its distinct effect of ordinary matter and light even though it doesn't produce or reflect light itself. If by "see" you mean in visible light only, then you're simply ignoring other methods of detection. Since it affects entire galaxies and groups of galaxies, that's one heckuva big teapot!

Obviously the illustration was aimed more at comprehension than at accuracy.

It fails, then, because it was wildly inaccurate to the point of uselessness. I could suggest it was aimed more at deception then comprehension, but I still believe it was just another instance where you throw numbers around without understanding their meaning.

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However, since you can't find fault in what I said content wise, I guess the indoctrinated mind will tend to attack any small error instead.

"Small" error? Pointing out a basic misunderstanding of the data and a gross exaggeration "for comparison purposes" isn't finding fault? That's an interesting way to spin it.

The ad-hom just shows how weak your argument is and that you know how weak it is.

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The difference between me and Neil is that I'm judging him by his own standards, and you aren't judging me by mine.

I am judging you by your standards. Here's what you said, remember:

Though, I wouldn't put any weight in what Neil says. He constantly and repeatedly makes mistakes, lies, and misquotations both within his field and outside of his field to push his agenda.

For the very reasons you give, no one should put any weight in what you say.

It's nice that you're on a first-name basis with Dr. Tyson, though; I presume that's who you're referring to here. Does he call you John?

He's the one that said being wrong and being able to influence people is dangerous. Not me.

Where? "Being wrong and being able to influence people is dangerous" never appears in your statement. At any rate, I don't disagree with that sentiment. In fact, it succinctly describes why many "round earth" people are here pointing out all the places where the flat-earth arguments are wrong; fortunately, the influence this site has is probably minuscule, but, to paraphrase Willie Sutton: "It's where the wrong information is" (and most is very easy to refute with relatively simple observations, some math, or a bit of basic logic) so we do what we can.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Galactic Rotational Speeds
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2016, 12:24:15 PM »
Roundies did invent like 96% of the mater in the universe solely for solving the issue that some galaxies rotate faster than expected.

Let that sink in. Instead of going to Modified Newton Dynamics, a competing and equal theory given falsification of their equations, they instead invent 96% of the universe.

96%. Of the Universe.


For comparison this is 4%: '' and this is 96% ''


That is how falsifiable round earth science really is. 4% falsifiable. They will invent 96% of the universe to avoid dealing with the remaining 4%. And roundies have the balls to say they aren't a religion. And why? Surely its not because their beliefs are falsifiable. We just saw that isn't the case. Yet again.

On to another base problem: mathematics. The only pursuit, as John Barrow joked, that can prove that it must rely on faith (via Godel's Incompleteness and/or Axiomatic Theory I assume.) But its not even that, its the use of mathematics, as well as mathematics itself, that is already faith based. They fit curves to data that is barely arguable. Roundies be all like "close enough! Let's go ahead and invent enough mass to help support this already weak tie. That will fix it." Good old normal science. So blinded by coherency and continuity it is made foolish.

When people make fun of Newton for having his Universe held together by God, this is the kinda stuff they are talking about guys. The round earth universe is held together by faith in that curve fit. Magellan once said "The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow of the earth on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than the Church" Our reply? I'd sooner put my faith in a Flat Earth than put it in the ridiculous notion that 96% of the universe is unaccounted for to account for a dying theory - that the earth is round. Hell at that rate, I'd sooner put my faith in a Potato.

That's a bit more than just forgetting where your keys are in the morning, I'd say.

This is like saying FET is .0000000000000000001% falsifiable. And you have to create 99.999999999999999999% of the universe to avoid dealing with the rest of it. I am exaggerating here, but the figure could be a lot more drastic than that.

Edit: It is at this point, John, that I would like to note that I know you are too intelligent to believe in 'FET'.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 12:27:05 PM by GlobeDebunker »

To fall into the belief of a flat Earth is to deny YOUR OWN cognizance.