ISIS supports the curve earth theory !

This is a news.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33250937

http://money.cnn.com/2015/12/04/news/world/isis-gold/index.html

http://havokjournal.com/politics/isis-goes-gold-are-they-marching-towards-a-legitimate-state/

This is the ISIS money!



As we know that this is the curve earth map!

Compare it:

Curve earth map:



Flat earth map:



ISIS money:



So who supports the curve earth,  he is on the same side with ISIS.



Abubakir Al Baghdadi was proud of you curve earth believers. 



This causes the same impact on me; curve earth believers and isis.  Really. All they are crazy for me.

Both maps you show are round earth maps.  Just different projections.  There is no flat earth map. 

I think religious loonies like ISIS, have more in common with flat earth loonies, than you might think.   Both are blind to the real world.   Neither listens to reason.

What does mothballs have to do with ISIS?     camphor==mothballs.     Maybe you meant kaffirs?   Did you write that text?

Both maps you show are round earth maps.  Just different projections.  There is no flat earth map. 

I think religious loonies like ISIS, have more in common with flat earth loonies, than you might think.   Both are blind to the real world.   Neither listens to reason.

What does mothballs have to do with ISIS?     camphor==mothballs.     Maybe you meant kaffirs?   Did you write that text?

title corrected.

Yes he mean about kaffirs. 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

This causes the same impact on me; Round earth believers and isis.  Really. .

Look, we hate ISIS every bit as much as you do.

But just because ISIS believes the earth is a globe is no evidence against the Globe. 99% of people on earth probably believe the same!

You are just so absolutely biased against the Globe, yet one the great pioneers of geodetic-surveying (measuring the globe) was Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973-ca. 1050), a Moslem astronomer, mathematician, geographer. You really should read about him in the Muslim Heritage.  That is an Islamic reference, though American Muslim based.

Al-Biruni clearly accepted the earth as a Globe, and was far ahead of Western astronomers and scientists in measuring the earth's size.

A bit more from another Islamic source.

Muslim Scientists and Thinkers
From:THE MUSLIM OBSERVER
Abu Rayhan al-Biruni was born in Kath, Uzbekistan in 973 CE a region adjoining the Aral Sea. He began his studies at a very young age under the famous mathematician Abu Nasr Mansur. In 1017 Sultan Mahmud Ghazni extend his kingdom to Kath area and he took al Biruni with him to his capital.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Al-Biruni is regarded as the father of geodesy and made numerous contribution to earth science, cartography, geography and geology. He introduced techniques to measure the distances on earth using triangulation. He solved complex geodesic equation and accurately calculated the circumference of the earth which is very close to the present value. His calculated value of earth's radius is 6339 km, which differs from the modern value by 16 km. This value was not obtained by the Europeans until the middle of 16th century. While he was very young he accurately calculated the latitude of various places.

Clearly around the year 1,000 AD many at least in the Islamic community believed the earth is a globe, or to be more accurate: "egg shaped" and it is very slightly egg-shaped!

The Quran then goes onto clarify the actual shape of the earth as being egg shaped. Both are clear, and not against established science.

from: http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/allegation-that-quran-says-earth-is.html.

No, Westerners are certainly not the only ones that accept the earth to be a globe!

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 02:09:24 AM

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

This causes the same impact on me; Round earth believers and isis.  Really. .

Look, we hate ISIS every bit as much as you do.

But just because ISIS believes the earth is a globe is no evidence against the Globe. 99% of people on earth probably believe the same!

You are just so absolutely biased against the Globe, yet one the great pioneers of geodetic-surveying (measuring the globe) was Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973-ca. 1050), a Moslem astronomer, mathematician, geographer. You really should read about him in the Muslim Heritage.  That is an Islamic reference, though American Muslim based.

Al-Biruni clearly accepted the earth as a Globe, and was far ahead of Western astronomers and scientists in measuring the earth's size.

A bit more from another Islamic source.

Quote from: Syed Aslam THE MUSLIM OBSERVER, Thursday, May 15, 2008

Muslim Scientists and Thinkers
From:THE MUSLIM OBSERVER
Abu Rayhan al-Biruni was born in Kath, Uzbekistan in 973 CE a region adjoining the Aral Sea. He began his studies at a very young age under the famous mathematician Abu Nasr Mansur. In 1017 Sultan Mahmud Ghazni extend his kingdom to Kath area and he took al Biruni with him to his capital.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Al-Biruni is regarded as the father of geodesy and made numerous contribution to earth science, cartography, geography and geology. He introduced techniques to measure the distances on earth using triangulation. He solved complex geodesic equation and accurately calculated the circumference of the earth which is very close to the present value. His calculated value of earth's radius is 6339 km, which differs from the modern value by 16 km. This value was not obtained by the Europeans until the middle of 16th century. While he was very young he accurately calculated the latitude of various places.

Clearly around the year 1,000 AD many at least in the Islamic community believed the earth is a globe, or to be more accurate: "egg shaped" and it is very slightly egg-shaped!

Quote

The Quran then goes onto clarify the actual shape of the earth as being egg shaped. Both are clear, and not against established science.

from: http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/allegation-that-quran-says-earth-is.html.

No, Westerners are certainly not the only ones that accept the earth to be a globe!

So, please don't try to use ISIS believing the earth is a globe as an excuse for your tirade!

why are you doing quotation from Biruni, did you decide to become a Muslim?

Ahahah you are so funny.

You always do that when you 're be at bay . other times when I can  talk about Biruni maybe you can curse him, but you're defending here because he support you this time . I am laughing at you. 

About Biruni the scholar:

I 've discussed this issue before came here several times. biruni didn't talk about of globe , he has said that the world was round . the world is flat or globe , albeit in the form of spheres , we already know it all they are round.

Does that mean you're on the same side as Boko Haram? After all, the founder believed the Earth was flat.

Does that mean you're on the same side as Boko Haram? After all, the founder believed the Earth was flat.

I wrote it by a news source.

Do you have a source except your ass?  (this is a locution)

look to: "kaynak götüm" https://www.uludagsozluk.com/k/kaynak-g%C3%B6t%C3%BCm/ (ass as the source)

This is a news. One of the source:

http://havokjournal.com/politics/isis-goes-gold-are-they-marching-towards-a-legitimate-state/

This is the ISIS money!



As we know that this is the curve earth map!

Compare it:

Curve earth map:



Flat earth map:



ISIS money:



So who supports the curve earth,  he is on the same side with ISIS.



Abubakir Al Baghdadi was proud of you curve earth believers. 



This causes the same impact on me; curve earth believers and isis.  Really. .

Thanks for this post, I knew something completely insane would pop of soon if I just waited.

ISIS also uses the Internet to spread a skewed world view that 99% of the planet disagrees with. Sounds a little like the flat earth movement.

Posting a reply will mean you support ISIS. I will be notifying the FBI.

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 02:09:24 AM

This is a news. One of the source:

http://havokjournal.com/politics/isis-goes-gold-are-they-marching-towards-a-legitimate-state/

This is the ISIS money!



As we know that this is the curve earth map!

Compare it:

Curve earth map:



Flat earth map:



ISIS money:



So who supports the curve earth,  he is on the same side with ISIS.



Abubakir Al Baghdadi was proud of you curve earth believers. 



This causes the same impact on me; curve earth believers and isis.  Really. .

Thanks for this post, I knew something completely insane would pop of soon if I just waited.

ISIS also uses the Internet to spread a skewed world view that 99% of the planet disagrees with. Sounds a little like the flat earth movement.

Posting a reply will mean you support ISIS. I will be notifying the FBI.

Good try. But it did not work

I'll report  you to CIA .   

I'm defending the flat earth so I'm against ISID. Who supporting the curve earth theory on this matter, i'll report it to CIA for supporting ISIS. Lets do it troll.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 21, 2016, 02:54:29 AM

What does mothballs have to do with ISIS?     camphor==mothballs.     Maybe you meant kaffirs?   Did you write that text?

Yes he mean about kaffirs. 

Now I can imagine all the ISIS loonies going around shooting mothballs...    We should not tell them they got it wrong.   
 

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 04:02:28 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 21, 2016, 02:54:29 AM

What does mothballs have to do with ISIS?     camphor==mothballs.     Maybe you meant kaffirs?   Did you write that text?

Yes he mean about kaffirs. 

Now I can imagine all the ISIS loonies going around shooting mothballs...    We should not tell them they got it wrong.   

Is there any topic that ISIS treats right ? I'm not surprised.

A troll said me to reported me to the FBI . 

I'm a writer writing active since 12 years. This is my old profile you can find out it here: http://www.frmtr.com/member.php?u=13177 This is the biggest Turkish forum at all over the world.

Sometimes the trolls threats me by sue, kill,... etc.

last year, a company threaded sue the forum commercial rights attacked.  therefore I'm banned for 1 week after that.

Last year an ISIS militan had threatened to cut off my head. Who cares?   

ISIS killed 3 Israeli citizens past 2 days, total 5 human.

ISIS killed  5 of my friend on Ankara bombing last year, that 106 total killed.

ISIS  is more dangerous than the FBI  here. I'm not afraid of ISIS killers. you think the FBI does it mean anything to me?

You can not hide the fact that with the threats if i have on the ambience. 

This is the most moronic argument against round earth that I've ever encountered. No wonder you couldn't understand the concept explained in the other post!

why are you doing quotation from Biruni, did you decide to become a Muslim?

Ahahah you are so funny.

You always do that when you 're be at bay . other times when I can  talk about Biruni maybe you can curse him, but you're defending here because he support you this time . I am laughing at you. 

Laugh all you like!

You seem to be quoting from ISIS sources, have you become an Islamist? I don't imagine so, but what is the difference? But I also said that almost all the world believes to earth to be a globe, so why is it strange that ISIS might. You seem to be alone in your ideas on al Biruni every source I could find was proud to show how he measured the radius of the earth. Here is another AL BIRUNI’S MEASUREMENT ON THE EARTH. Why shouldn't I quote from al Biruni? I have quoted from him many times in support of the globe. I may or may not agree with his other beliefs, but from all I have read he was a great scholar at a time when Western civilisation was in "the Dark Ages"? See the diagram on the right, how he calculated the radius of the earth from the dip angle from the top of a mountain. You, claim you are so right, but you are among such a tiny minority! Would you please carefully explain why having ISIS believe something makes it untrue! I don't doubt that many of there beliefs are the same as yours, but that does not mean that you support their evil and perverted ways. No what about getting the discussion back to the simple facts of the earth's shape. And please stop blaming NASA for the globe earth ideas. NASA had nothing to do with it! The earth has been well accepted as a globe for over 2,000 years. Of course some disagreed, but just get it into your head that almost everybody believed that the earth is a globe without NASA help.  NONE of us here are "NASA trolls"! As far as I know one person has any connection at all. Just because we do not agree with YOU does not make us trolls.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think the moon gets its light?
In the globe model of course it is reflected light from the sun and in the "Wiki" of this site and TFES site it is also claimed that the moon is illuminated with light from the sun - seems to leave you the odd man out!

This is the most moronic argument against round earth that I've ever encountered. No wonder you couldn't understand the concept explained in the other post!

    

Wellcome to the real life.

pardon my curiosity, Mr. terrorist.  Are you supporting the curve earth?    

This topic is not a joke.

 As all we know that NASA  Didn't go to the moon. The taxes of the American people are stealed by a lot  with lies of NASA. NASA now transfering a part of these informal money to ISID. Therefore ISID argues that that's why NASA lies!

USA and Russia dont bombing the ISIS. USA finished Iraq armie in 1 week. USA bombing the ISIS since 2 years but still they are on there. Do you really believe USA bombing the ISIS? ISIS = A part of a CIA. So supporting to NASA lies! So you NASA trolls are supporting to ISIS. You are all on the same side!

Quote from: richaddis on March 21, 2016, 06:26:46 AM

This is the most moronic argument against round earth that I've ever encountered. No wonder you couldn't understand the concept explained in the other post!

    

Wellcome to the real life.

pardon my curiosity, Mr. terrorist.  Are you supporting the curve earth?    

Haha! As predicted by Inkey, I am the first to be accused of being a terrorist because I know that the Earth is a sphere!

A troll said me to reported me to the FBI . 
I'm a writer writing active since 12 years. This is my old profile you can find out it here: http://www.frmtr.com/member.php?u=13177 This is the biggest Turkish forum at all over the world.
Sometimes the trolls threats me by sue, kill,... etc.
last year, a company threaded sue the forum commercial rights attacked.  therefore I'm banned for 1 week after that.
Last year an ISIS militan had threatened to cut off my head. Who cares?   
ISIS killed 3 Israeli citizens past 2 days, total 5 human.
ISIS killed  5 of my friend on Ankara bombing last year, that 106 total killed.
ISIS  is more dangerous than the FBI  here. I'm not afraid of ISIS killers. you think the FBI does it mean anything to me?
You can not hide the fact that with the threats if i have on the ambience. 

Look, nobody here is denying the serious threat of ISIS (and also other Islamists groups) and personally I think these are as big a threat to the rest of the Moslem world as to the non Moslem community, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Flat Earth/Globe Earth argument.

And, really the way you are trying to force your ideas on everyone here if not helping the "Flat Earth Cause" one little bit!

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 06:35:10 AM

Quote from: richaddis on March 21, 2016, 06:26:46 AM

This is the most moronic argument against round earth that I've ever encountered. No wonder you couldn't understand the concept explained in the other post!

    

Wellcome to the real life.

pardon my curiosity, Mr. terrorist.  Are you supporting the curve earth?    

Haha! As predicted by Inkey, I am the first to be accused of being a terrorist because I know that the Earth is a sphere!

Read message on your last post. This explains what the hell is going on.

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 06:12:50 AM

A troll said me to reported me to the FBI . 
I'm a writer writing active since 12 years. This is my old profile you can find out it here: http://www.frmtr.com/member.php?u=13177 This is the biggest Turkish forum at all over the world.
Sometimes the trolls threats me by sue, kill,... etc.
last year, a company threaded sue the forum commercial rights attacked.  therefore I'm banned for 1 week after that.
Last year an ISIS militan had threatened to cut off my head. Who cares?   
ISIS killed 3 Israeli citizens past 2 days, total 5 human.
ISIS killed  5 of my friend on Ankara bombing last year, that 106 total killed.
ISIS  is more dangerous than the FBI  here. I'm not afraid of ISIS killers. you think the FBI does it mean anything to me?
You can not hide the fact that with the threats if i have on the ambience. 

Look, nobody here is denying the serious threat of ISIS (and also other Islamists groups) and personally I think these are as big a threat to the rest of the Moslem world as to the non Moslem community, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Flat Earth/Globe Earth argument.

And, really the way you are trying to force your ideas on everyone here if not helping the "Flat Earth Cause" one little bit!

But I'm explainnig what is going on.

Read my last post.

Here, let me apply your logic:

ISIS believes in a round earth, ergo round earth is bad.
ISIS is composed of Muslims, ergo Islam is a religion of hate.

See?

So who supports the curve earth,  he is on the same side with ISIS.

One of the dumbest things I've read on this site yet.  Good job sir.

This topic is not a joke.

 As all we know that NASA  Didn't go to the moon. The taxes of the American people are stealed by a lot  with lies of NASA. NASA now transfering a part of these informal money to ISID. Therefore ISID argues that that's why NASA lies!

USA and Russia dont bombing the ISIS. USA finished Iraq armie in 1 week. USA bombing the ISIS since 2 years but still they are on there. Do you really believe USA bombing the ISIS? ISIS = A part of a CIA. So supporting to NASA lies! So you NASA trolls are supporting to ISIS. You are all on the same side!

This topic is not a joke, but it is very funny. ISIS is a part of the CIA? NASA is supporting ISIS? Hilarious.

At this point I would suggest visiting a mental health specialist, there are amazing drugs out there now that can help you sort irrational thoughts from rational.

I would suggest it but this is just too funny, so keep going.

Quote from: Jane on March 21, 2016, 05:07:26 AM

Does that mean you're on the same side as Boko Haram? After all, the founder believed the Earth was flat.

I wrote it by a news source.

Do you have a source except your ass?  (this is a locution)

look to: "kaynak götüm" https://www.uludagsozluk.com/k/kaynak-g%C3%B6t%C3%BCm/ (ass as the source)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8172270.stm

"There are prominent Islamic preachers who have seen and understood that the present Western-style education is mixed with issues that run contrary to our beliefs in Islam, like rain. We believe it is a creation of God rather than an evaporation caused by the sun that condenses and becomes rain. Like saying the world is a sphere. If it runs contrary to the teachings of Allah, we reject it. We also reject the theory of Darwinism." -Mohammed Yusuf

Honestly, WHY or why does anyone bother to entertain this clown and his idiotic dim-witted pseudo science.  Shows you just about what you're dealing with when someone make kindergarten level correlations between ISIS money and assertions about the shape of the moon...I assume you're from Turkey, right?  My guess is that Erdogan also believes the earth is a globe along with the other 99.999% of all Turkish citizens...I think that just about leaves you and a few fringe lunatics. 

Honestly, WHY or why does anyone bother to entertain this clown and his idiotic dim-witted pseudo science. 

If we didn't entertain ideas and arguments like that, what exactly would you propose we do on the Flat Earth Society Forum?

Quote from: rabinoz on March 21, 2016, 06:42:33 AM

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 06:12:50 AM

A troll said me to reported me to the FBI . 
I'm a writer writing active since 12 years. This is my old profile you can find out it here: http://www.frmtr.com/member.php?u=13177 This is the biggest Turkish forum at all over the world.
Sometimes the trolls threats me by sue, kill,... etc.
last year, a company threaded sue the forum commercial rights attacked.  therefore I'm banned for 1 week after that.
Last year an ISIS militan had threatened to cut off my head. Who cares?   
ISIS killed 3 Israeli citizens past 2 days, total 5 human.
ISIS killed  5 of my friend on Ankara bombing last year, that 106 total killed.
ISIS  is more dangerous than the FBI  here. I'm not afraid of ISIS killers. you think the FBI does it mean anything to me?
You can not hide the fact that with the threats if i have on the ambience. 

Look, nobody here is denying the serious threat of ISIS (and also other Islamists groups) and personally I think these are as big a threat to the rest of the Moslem world as to the non Moslem community, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Flat Earth/Globe Earth argument.

And, really the way you are trying to force your ideas on everyone here if not helping the "Flat Earth Cause" one little bit!

But I'm explainnig what is going on.
Read my last post.

I read your last post, but my point is and always was that NASA, ISIS or the FBI have
Most people that have considered the matter accepted the earth as a globe for the past 2,000 years.
So, please leave NASA and ISIS out of the discussion and get down and discuss actual facts relevant to the shape of the earth and the map of the earth.

Most people that have considered the matter accepted the earth as a globe for the past 2,000 years.

Wrong. Kuran don't say that, bible too.
the wrong done do not explain  a matter done wrong  now . that we should all burn case for who don't believe in God, like trolls here . because in the past they were burning.
Look the internet sites now giving us the position and the angles of the sun and moon. We can calculate it. I calculated them about 3.000-5.000 miles. Nasa saying more then these, who care? Nasa is not a God! And now we have a image joining program. I don't think so that Copernicus and the other scholars had the tecnology for do something true. So he had a mistake, because of Due to difficult conditions. This is normal. But God have all technological opportunities and saying us that the earth is a flat! After 500 years to Kopernik, I'm calculating yes the earth is a flat. God is saying true, and Copernicus is wrong. I'm not surprised , but I calculate it myself .

I read your last post, but my point is and always was that NASA, ISIS or the FBI have
nothing to do with the SHAPE of the EARTH!

CIA doing something for the Shape of the earth!

Using the ISIS they are defending the globe, and giving subliminal messages for defending the globe theory.

Because NASA need money for to be able to terror financing. producing terror easier than to intervene in the foreign country.

NASA money going to CIA, going to terrorist groups like ISIS.

So it is same to defending the globe and cutting head of innocent civilians.

Wrong starting with a lie: "We landed to moon". This is just a littele lie. But God knowing something to say us "do not lie". After this lie peoples are dying by terror. What god said that "don't kill someone". God never change  own words. Saying the world is flat, it is true.

Why may i believe in the NASA, is it God? it's way go to the hell !

Quote from: İntikam on March 21, 2016, 02:09:24 AM

So who supports the curve earth,  he is on the same side with ISIS.

One of the dumbest things I've read on this site yet.  Good job sir.

Wrong!

Did you say the same thing about Jane's signature? If you didn't, so you are a troll!

Quote from: rabinoz on March 21, 2016, 03:45:09 PM

Most people that have considered the matter accepted the earth as a globe for the past 2,000 years.

Wrong. Kuran don't say that, bible too.
the wrong done do not explain  a matter done wrong  now . that we should all burn case for who don't believe in God, like trolls here . because in the past they were burning.
Look the internet sites now giving us the position and the angles of the sun and moon. We can calculate it. I calculated them about 3.000-5.000 miles. Nasa saying more then these, who care? Nasa is not a God! And now we have a image joining program. I don't think so that Copernicus and the other scholars had the tecnology for do something true. So he had a mistake, because of Due to difficult conditions. This is normal. But God have all technological opportunities and saying us that the earth is a flat! After 500 years to Kopernik, I'm calculating yes the earth is a flat. God is saying true, and Copernicus is wrong. I'm not surprised , but I calculate it myself .

Quote from: rabinoz on March 21, 2016, 03:45:09 PM

I read your last post, but my point is and always was that NASA, ISIS or the FBI have
nothing to do with the SHAPE of the EARTH!

CIA doing something for the Shape of the earth!
Using the ISIS they are defending the globe, and giving subliminal messages for defending the globe theory.
Because NASA need money for to be able to terror financing. producing terror easier than to intervene in the foreign country.
NASA money going to CIA, going to terrorist groups like ISIS.
So it is same to defending the globe and cutting head of innocent civilians.
Wrong starting with a lie: "We landed to moon". This is just a littele lie. But God knowing something to say us "do not lie". After this lie peoples are dying by terror. What god said that "don't kill someone". God never change  own words. Saying the world is flat, it is true.
Why may i believe in the NASA, is it God? it's way go to the hell !

You say "We can calculate it. I calculated them about 3.000-5.000 miles."  Sure BUT

• Your calculations assume that the earth is flat! And, you get a different answer for each pair of spacings! 
• Again, the distance to the sun was determined long before NASA came into existence!
  The earliest reasonably accurate determination was by French astronomer Jerome Lalande who collected all the data from the 1761 and 1769 transits of Venus to get a distance to the Sun of 153 million kilometres.

So, again leave NASA out of it. True,  NASA is not God! But the distance to the sun was known long before NASA came on the scene!

Also, the shape of the Earth was determined long before ISIS, NASA, CIA or the FBI were ever thought of! So obviously they have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth!
Are you claiming that they have changed the shape of the Earth! Don't be absolutely ridiculous.

On the matter of the Kuran or the Bible teaching a flat earth.
I cannot comment on Kuran interpretation, all I can do is quote what seem to be Islamic sources. One such reference is: Refuting lies about Islam

Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

Also see more in Flat Earth and the Qur'an
Now, I don't want to suggest that I can interpret the Kuran, I certainly will not try! The only reason I am showing these references is to show that not all Muslims think the earth is flat.

I know for an absolute fact that the almost all Christians believe in a rotating globe,though there are some some who do believe in the flat earth.

If you want to discuss the shape of the Earth, do it on the basis of sound evidence, nothing else! As well as your perceived problems with the Globe you must let us know what you would replace it with.
The Flat Earth map you showed us is simply wrong!