Ok, I got bored and started going through the rest of the thread.
I'm so sorry, MaNaeSWolf. I didn't realize you had already said you didn't care about the moral argument. It looks like you are acknowledging that veganism has good arguments. The arguments either just don't apply to you since you're not from the US or you just don't care about the morality part of it.
As for nature, it doesn't matter if nature doesn't care. Nature doesn't care whether you're alive or dead or whether you suffer, it doesn't mean you should have fun. Also, just because someone else doesn't care about something, it doesn't mean you shouldn't.
There are people that have survived old age who worked in asbestos mines, this does not make asbestos okay.
Smoking is actually statistically VERY bad for you, at any quantity. Meat is only bad for you after high quantities. If 1000 people eat a balanced diet that includes meat, and 1000 vegans eat meat, there will be no statistical benefit to the vegans. You cant say that for the smokers. But if you want to smoke, thats okay, its your own life and you have been warned.
I agree with you. Meat is similar to chocolate, wine, and well, a lot of foods really. You can be healthy eating it moderately. It's only bad if you eat too much. I meant that just because someone lived a long time by doing something, it doesn't mean that that's the reason it happened. I'm on the internet a lot and if I live a long life, it doesn't mean that it's because I'm on the internet a lot. It would be nice if the internet made me live longer though. I don't even smoke.
I am against the purposeless killing of animals that happened when colonials entered South Africa and wiped out thousands of herds of animal for sport. But I am not even against controlled sport hunting because I am aware of the good it does for nature conservation. BTW, nature conservationists hate bunny huggers, feel good arguments are not the same as whats good for the animals.
I agree with you that there are times when killing is good for the animal. There is a metro park near where I grew up when I was a kid. It's protected and has deer there, but there are no predators for the deer. So, I think it's every couple of years that they will pay hunters to come in and kill some of the deer there. If they didn't do that, many of the deer would die of starvation because there would be too many of them. There is only a limited amount of food there, after all.
The argument is an emotional one, not a logical one. There is no logical argument why killing a bred animal is bad or good. And you are free to chose your own view. I empathize and understand your view completely though.
Well, you could say that about anything to do with morals. Good and bad are opinions. I could say assisted suicide is a good thing to do for someone if they needed it and somebody else could say it's not and neither of us would be right. If it doesn't harm you in any way though, I don't see why being nice to someone would be the wrong way to go. There's no logical reason for me not to bully someone either, but I won't.
That being said, I understand your view and you are free to choose your own view also.
The strongest argument for going vegan to me would be for the environmental concerns. I am more inclined to want to argue for the environment.
But when I read the way selective statistics get thrown around by the vegan tribe to sell their view I lose trust in the whole movement.
I understand. Just keep in mind that just because someone is wrong about something, it doesn't mean they're wrong about everything. Actually, I don't believe anyone is wrong about everything.
People do not kill each other, other wise we would be an unsustainable society and would not be where we are today
I really don't think that's why people don't kill each other. Many people still kill even today. People do it or don't do it based on whether they want to and whether they think they will be punished and whether it's worth it.
Animals are not sapients, they don't possess any rights, and we should not constrain human activity to their "benefit". We should largely end the practice of consuming animals for food, because doing so is incredibly wasteful and destructive, but that entails ending those animals, not setting them into the wild or any such nonsense.
You shouldn't set any domestic animals into the wild. Most vegans would never suggest doing that. I don't know what you mean by or "any such nonsense."
Arguments like yours, though, are the other major hurdle - the crowd of sobbing "animal rights activists" who place sentiment ahead of reason. Veganism is simply not rational or desirable, it promotes actively destroying efficiency for the sake of "m-muh feelings".
If someone is placing feelings over reason, that individual is doing so. Not any group of people. FlatEarthDenial makes many good points, though some are wrong too.
Like this, for example:
Workers in a slaughterhouse are more likely to be mentally ill than anyone else is!
It seems like others have already pointed out the wrong ones though.
We have different standards based for humans on an evolutionary predilection to protect our own species. It would be odd if we treated cows better than humans.
Yeah. It's not logical to protect your own species because we are our own species though. It would also be illogical to put cows over humans too. Luckily, we can not harm cows unnecessarily without harming humans either.
Again, animal "suffering" doesn't matter. These creatures are not sapients who deserve rights, they are organic machines.
You are an organic machine too.
If none of us ate cow, they would reproduce to the point that their population might need to be culled, just like coyotes and foxes in some regions. The same is true of hogs, and chickens, and other food animals. What would one do with all that meat if not eat it?
Keep them as pets, keep them at sanctuaries, things like that. People could have said the same thing about cat and dog mills. "Well, if no one buys from the mills, what will happen to the cats and dogs?" In the end, banning them helps more cats and dogs just like how not supporting animal farming will help the farm animals in the end.
Let's face it though, everybody being vegan won't happen.
Sentience is not important. Sentient creatures are a dime a dozen. Sapience is the only quality that matters, as it is the only one that allows for the capacity to express values.
It's not the only quality that matters. You can have all the intelligence in the world, but it won't do any good if said person does anything with it.
It sounds like you're saying other animals are worth less than us because we are smarter, however not all humans are intelligent. Many are dumb, whether they are just less smart than average or they are mentally retarded. Should we treat them differently?
yes, it has ben proven that human nutrition is best obtained by a mix of plant & animal product.
No, it hasn't actually. You can be just as healthy as a vegan.
With regard to animals, though, it's obviously clear that we should seek to end the primary production of meat and dairy - by killing off the existing populations of meat and dairy animals.
The problem with that logic is that that's what happened in the 1990's, in the 2000's, and the 2010's. It hasn't changed anything though. It won't until people stop buying it, what with supply and demand and all.
Re: Jewish Shechita, or kosher slaughter, being humane, I refer the interested reader to http://m.chabad.org, where they can look up the subject. Another method is to google "Is Jewish slaughter humane?" The Chabad site is one of the earlier sites that pop up. In the articles concerning the topic, they will see both Jewish and non-Jewish references to the matter. Although Halal is not discussed, the information would apply since the methods are so similar.
It looks like it's all saying what you said, that kosher slaughter is where you slit the animal's throat. The websites say it's humane, however none are scientific. They are just people who are interested in jewish slaughter or are jews themselves. There are people who believe that decapitating chickens is humane, but as I pointed out you don't die immediately. There are people who think people will die right away if you cut their throat too, but that doesn't happen. There are people who think if a company says they treat their animals well, they do. Just because a company says they do doesn't mean they do. You can say something is humane without it being humane.
You can say something is sustainable when it's not too. I just recently found out that sustainable palm oil isn't any better than regular palm oil is.
What would be humane is stopping the brain from working entirely immediately. If bolts were more reliable, that would work. Or a shotgun.
I have killed animals before myself to keep them from suffering any more than they were. I make sure to stop their brain right away. This was with mice. However, it's a bit harder with big animals because their bones are thicker and their brains are bigger.
As far as supplements go, without dairy, many (I would daresay most) people run calcium shortages, and often Vitamin D shortages (if they live in regions without much sunlight). Even WITH dairy, for many Asian and Caucasian women, the calcium can be an issue, that requires supplements to resolve. The vitamin D issue is becoming more problematic as more people stay out of the sun due to indoor work.
No, it has to do with whether you eat foods that have calcium in them often enough. As for vitamin D, milk is supplemented with vitamin D. Your body naturally gets it from the sun. Your body needs vitamin D to use calcium efficiently though.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=45The foods with the best sources of calcium are:
Tofu
Sardines
Sesame Seeds
Yogurt
Collard Greens
Spinach
Cheese
Turnip Greens
Mustard Greens
Beet Greens
I take a calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D pill because
1. I don't eat/drink enough foods or drinks with calcium in them. I like tofu and spinach, but I just eat other foods more often. I get more iron than I do calcium.
2. I don't go outside much in the winter. Magnesium is also useful for calcium.
3. I drink too much caffeine, which causes me to need to take in more calcium. This is especially bad if I don't get enough calcium in the first place.
Of course, I could just stop doing those things, but I like it this way.
I myself suffer from severe Vitamin D shortage and a need for pills due to having extremely pale skin that burns easily, eyes that are HIGHLY sensitive to sunlight such that being in direct light can be painful, and the fact that I cover my nakedness as much as possible for religious reasons.
A lot of people do. It doesn't have anything to do with whether you're vegan or not. It has to do with whether you're getting enough vitamin D or not.
My mom has been told by a doctor that she didn't get enough vitamin B12 before. She's not vegan and eats meat every day. She just didn't get enough vitamin B12 for whatever reason.
But why change one's diet and cause a need for supplements where none is there?
Why keep your diet the way it is if it hurts someone else and you just need to supplement one thing? Is it that hard to take one pill?