GPS (as a flat earth believer)

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Inkey

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 10:12:20 AM »
Hey wait a minute, don't Flathead Earthers claim space is fake?  So what would a "natural" object looking like the ISS be doing in a fake, non-existent outerspace?  Unless it's on the INSIDE of the dome...wait, I'm getting confused.

One of the problems with the flat earth theory is that there is no standard answer to any question. From my limited exposure to the theory, some believe there are no satellites at all, some believe in so called pseudo satellite that are floating in the aether, and I am sure some believe something completely different.

The original post posses the question of how do we know that gps satellites are not natural celestial bodies, so I am assuming the poster is referring to pseudo satellites or something similar. My answer was directly related to that question.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 06:04:46 PM »
Hey wait a minute, don't Flathead Earthers claim space is fake?  So what would a "natural" object looking like the ISS be doing in a fake, non-existent outerspace?  Unless it's on the INSIDE of the dome...wait, I'm getting confused.

One of the problems with the flat earth theory is that there is no standard answer to any question. From my limited exposure to the theory, some believe there are no satellites at all, some believe in so called pseudo satellite that are floating in the aether, and I am sure some believe something completely different.

The original post posses the question of how do we know that gps satellites are not natural celestial bodies, so I am assuming the poster is referring to pseudo satellites or something similar. My answer was directly related to that question.
Ever tried to pick up a huge earth worm! - very slippery.

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MouseWalker

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2016, 06:54:13 PM »
/quote]
So, let me try to rephrase that story: The airplane started to move uncontrollably and they think they reached some impossible altitude, but somehow they survived. Wow! Well, I know that's against all odds. Let's for the sake of argument assume that airplanes exist. Does that mean that this story is true? Well, no. It could be made up to be sold to the newspapers. And let's assume that this is true, that people who wrote this story truly believed that. What is more likely: that they were deceived by the instruments or that they really reached the altitude they thought was impossible?
See, if you are a FE-er, you automatically reject any explanation involving the rotundity of the Earth as wrong. Think of the people of different religions talking about miracles. They never see their god, they always just try to explain something that they couldn't explain otherwise using their religion. It is obvious that they are making arguments from ignorance.
See, the same goes for the story you just told. If airplanes exist, they are too complicated for anyone to understand exactly how they work (each part). Even if an engineer says that they couldn't explain how could the instruments show that they are higher than possible, that doesn't mean that the RE is the most probable explanation.
In fact, I think that that explanation is not even wrong. It contradicts with what we see every single day.

If I have to prove airplanes are real, I can see I will, have a hard time proving the GPS and ISS are real,
along with a language barrier.
"
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. English is not my first language. But I don't think that that's entirely my fault, since you said:
"
I see that you have Internet access. But where can you be so isolated that you do not see flights of airplanes.
I suggestion that you Google the 'history of flight', Then the 'history of spaceflight'.
After witch we may be able to talk.

PS. I see airplanes flying daily. If I take all the flights that I have flown I would have gone around the earth at least once.


The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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NewtSmooth

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2016, 08:07:36 PM »
Cringe thread?
Quote from: Rabinoz
I would not claim to know how to do it either, but the engineers that design aircraft, etc do know!
Here we go again! That's one of the stupidest RE arguments, yet one of the most common. . .
"Well, I know I sure don't get it, so it must not be possible. . ."
Quote from: SamePost
But can't you at least TRY to reach the truth?!
One of the stupidest FE arguments, yet one of the most common. "I don't get it ==> It's not true. / You don't get it ==> You're lazy and/or stupid." Based on the logical fallacy of a double standard. If you have enough understanding of a concept to demonstrate that the loose ends don't meet up, then go ahead and argue against it.

Until then, everybody who doesn't know much about it is to some extent ignorant and nothing gets disproven, but the engineers keep successfully applying their knowledge and constantly proving it. So because they understand it they can keep generating more evidence while not even participating in the discussion, and you've still got nothing to say about it.

What is more likely: that they were deceived by the instruments or that they really reached the altitude they thought was impossible?

Those instruments apply fundamental physics, so if you're going to deny those instruments, you'd better be prepared to disprove. . . you know. . . everything? Whereas reaching an altitude higher than what they thought they could is plausible. Rounding down for safety and simplicity in intermediate calculations (not saying that's what they did), environmental conditions, etc. Do you or I know what happened there? No. But I and everybody else knows those instruments are extremely reliable. 

See, the same goes for the story you just told. If airplanes exist, they are too complicated for anyone to understand exactly how they work (each part). Even if an engineer says that they couldn't explain how could the instruments show that they are higher than possible, that doesn't mean that the RE is the most probable explanation.
Thrust/drag/lift/gravity, each part can be considered individually, let the engineers fuss about the big picture and individual parts for optimization. If anybody knows all that, chances are an industrial espionage suit is following, or they just have an airplane and know it works.

Wing: contour forces air to pass faster over the wing than under, reducing dynamic pressure and causing pressure below to lift the wings, when it is forced forward.
Elevators and rudders: same thing except you can turn it to change the orientation of the plane with the "lift" generated.
Ramjets: when forced through the air, the air is pressurized and mixed with fuel. Once ignited it stays lit for the same reasons a Bunsen burner does, and this pressure increase from the burning jet fuel generates thrust.

It doesn't really take much to understand an airplane if you try.

And I really shouldn't even be attempting to prove that ISS doesn't exist. The burden on proof is definitely on you. Don't take it as an attack, take it as a fact.
Yes. I should have to prove that an artificial observable object in the sky exists. Get a telescope, look up where it should be at, go outside, and look at it. Done? No conspiracy stuff? You can see it for yourself?

all, as a FE-er, I am not allowed to believe in submarines until I see enough evidence of them.
Implying the Allies pretended to almost lose WWI in the Atlantic and that anti-submarine convoy tactics remain in use purely to preserve the Conspiracy.

Sorry, I know that post ended with "let's get back to GPS" but this hurt too much to just pass this up. I'll get to GPS now.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

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NewtSmooth

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2016, 09:24:18 PM »
Well, one last off-topic post. Then GPS. Too much is off about air pressure to leave it be.

If there is no gravitational acceleration, the air pressure should be zero. Air pressure is simply hydrostatic pressure (p=rho*g*h). So, if g is 0, so should be p, right?
This applies only to atmospheric pressure, where there is no ceiling. Instead the gas is held together by Earth's gravity holding it against the planet (RET of course), so instead of an upper boundary there's increased downward force, dependent on p, the density of the gas, and h, the height of the column of air. As one progresses away from the center of gravity (up) g decreases, the air pressure decreases because less air presses down from above and with less weight.

Edit: Last sentence had a flawed sequence of ideas. Fixed it.

Any sealed container becomes an isolated system, however, and the ideal gas law applies instead. Note: atmospheric pressure. So no, zero gravity would not set the pressure to 0. Where would all the kinetic energy anyway?

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And people die when the air pressure lowers just slightly.

Extremely healthy people can manage to survive climbing Everest, whose summit has a third the air pressure  of sea level. So no. People don't just die with that small a change in air pressure.

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Here is my list of possible responses and why I think they are wrong:
1. They create pressure using ventilation.
They can't. You can only lower the pressure with a ventilation. In every point in a path of a single particle the sum of dynamic pressure and static pressure should be equal. So if you increase the dynamic pressure (the kinetic energy of the particles), the static pressure actually lowers, and not increases.

^ legit afaik.
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2. They create pressure by compressing air using the walls of the ISS (and probably bringing Pascal's law into debate just to sound smarter).

If you're going to say applying proven physics is arrogant, please stop condoning it by saying it on the Internet of all places.

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Well, keep this in mind: outside of the ISS, there is zero pressure. Inside, there is then atmospheric pressure.

So the ISS only has to contain one atm. Are you implying NASA can't do that?
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What force would be acting on that wall (and the bigger area this wall has, the stronger the force is)?
No. The bigger the area, the weaker that force is per square inch.

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I am pretty certain no material could sustain that!

One atm could easily be contained by modern alloys shaped by modern structural engineering.

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Also, shouldn't then the air in the ISS be much denser than the air here on the Earth? After all, we all know that p*V=n*R*T. If it is, how come would the astronauts survive?!

Full of no.

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3. They survive because the pressure of air inside them is also zero (it gradually decreases when they travel to the ISS).
So, how could they possibly breathe then? I mean, look, breathing is possible because, when the volume of air inside the lungs increases, the static pressure decreases. But, since the sum of statical and dynamical pressure has to stay constant, the air flows into the lungs. And when the volume of lungs decreases, exactly the opposite happens and the air flows away from the lungs. And if the static pressure is always zero, that simply couldn't happen.
So, what are the other possibilities (or maybe one of my refutations is wrong)?
Well, you're right, this potential response would be pretty dumb. Just because their internal pressure decreases doesn't mean they defy human anatomy.

Tl;dr they did some math (how haughty of them) to get the pressure about right, and have the right amount of air in the ISS for the volume and desired pressure. If you think no material can withstand 1 atm you need more trust in materials science. (Yes that's a thing.)

Aaaand nnnooooowww GPS. Sorry folks.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:26:51 PM by NewtSmooth »
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

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NewtSmooth

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2016, 10:10:23 PM »
Okay, so: GPS.

GPS satellite constantly broadcasts the time, its location, then a garbled binary string. The receiver reads the binary string until it fully loops so it knows when in the satellite's output the receiver first started "listening", why I can't tell you for sure. I'd have to see the receiver's code. The time difference from the timestamp in the code to the time known by the receiver is how long it took the EM waves. This, combined with the broadcasted location of where each signal came from, allows the distance from each satellite to be calculated, and thus the receiver can determine its location.

A fourth signal is also used to help ensure accuracy and help synchronize the receiver's time.

The satellite's are maintained by everybody's friend the US gov. They synch the satellites' atomic clocks every day and ensure their location data is up to snuff.

Now for the garbled binary: here's where synching and the fourth satellite come in, again if I understand it right. You need n linear equations to solve any system of n variables, in this case 3D + time. Distance-rate-time is linear. So if you have three satellites you might have a range of points you could be at because you have many figures for plausible coordinates, all dependent on the time deviation of the receiver.

If all of the satellites are synched, the point of entry in that garbled binary string can reliably tell you exactly how long each signal took from all four satellites and you can definitively narrow down what the fourth variable time deviation is, so that fourth satellite is necessary in computing the actual time it took for the other three signals to reach the receiver and resynching the receiver clock.

So, tl;dr
 
Here is my question: how do you (RE-ers who use that argument) know that GPS satellites are not natural celestial objects (some invisible, very slow-moving "star").
From my own plain old technically baseless common sense:
  • Widely observed satellite launches.
  • One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.

From this post:
  • Stars don't broadcast binary loops.
  • Stars don't broadcast their locations with a timestamp. Sure would make astronomy easier, though.
  • Contrary to popular belief, the stars aren't maintained by NASA.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2016, 02:54:55 AM »
Okay, so: GPS.

GPS satellite constantly broadcasts the time, its location, then a garbled binary string. The receiver reads the binary string until it fully loops so it knows when in the satellite's output the receiver first started "listening", why I can't tell you for sure. I'd have to see the receiver's code. The time difference from the timestamp in the code to the time known by the receiver is how long it took the EM waves. This, combined with the broadcasted location of where each signal came from, allows the distance from each satellite to be calculated, and thus the receiver can determine its location.

A fourth signal is also used to help ensure accuracy and help synchronize the receiver's time.

The satellite's are maintained by everybody's friend the US gov. They synch the satellites' atomic clocks every day and ensure their location data is up to snuff.

Now for the garbled binary: here's where synching and the fourth satellite come in, again if I understand it right. You need n linear equations to solve any system of n variables, in this case 3D + time. Distance-rate-time is linear. So if you have three satellites you might have a range of points you could be at because you have many figures for plausible coordinates, all dependent on the time deviation of the receiver.

If all of the satellites are synched, the point of entry in that garbled binary string can reliably tell you exactly how long each signal took from all four satellites and you can definitively narrow down what the fourth variable time deviation is, so that fourth satellite is necessary in computing the actual time it took for the other three signals to reach the receiver and resynching the receiver clock.

So, tl;dr
 
Here is my question: how do you (RE-ers who use that argument) know that GPS satellites are not natural celestial objects (some invisible, very slow-moving "star").
From my own plain old technically baseless common sense:
  • Widely observed satellite launches.
  • One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.

From this post:
  • Stars don't broadcast binary loops.
  • Stars don't broadcast their locations with a timestamp. Sure would make astronomy easier, though.
  • Contrary to popular belief, the stars aren't maintained by NASA.

How do you know what it broadcasts?  Oh, wait, is that what the NASholes told you?  lol

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NewtSmooth

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2016, 04:55:05 AM »
One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.
How do you know what it broadcasts?  Oh, wait, is that what the NASholes told you?  lol
Honestly, you're usually better at derailing than this, and that was why I was disappointed with your post lol.
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2016, 05:00:37 AM »
One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.
How do you know what it broadcasts?  Oh, wait, is that what the NASholes told you?  lol
Honestly, you're usually better at derailing than this, and that was why I was disappointed with your post lol.

I would say that that is what your mom told me, but I would likely get banned again.  Instead, I will agree with your mom about being disappointed. 

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NewtSmooth

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2016, 05:15:25 AM »
I would say that that is what your mom told me, but I would likely get banned again.  Instead, I will agree with your mom about being disappointed.
:(
Quote from: jroa
Wow, great non-response
Quote from: disputeone
I don't understand females but am still pretty sure they exist.
Quote from: markjo
Your first mistake was to presume there would be an academic debate anywhere on this forum.

*

Son of Orospu

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Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2016, 05:51:34 AM »
I would say that that is what your mom told me, but I would likely get banned again.  Instead, I will agree with your mom about being disappointed.
:(

 :P