Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.

In fact, what a rocket is doing is combusting a gas in order to create pressure via F=pa.

This pressure must push against a second, external mass in order to produce motion...

You seem to be hung up on the word "external".  Where exactly does Newton's 3rd law say "external mass"?  I see plenty of definitions talking about action and reaction, but nothing about external mass.

The fact is that the rocket engine is one mass and the propellant is a second mass.  The pressure created by burning the propellant forces the propellant one way and the rocket engine the other way.

Btw, where is that full version of Newton 3 I requested 56 pages ago?

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

See, no mention of external mass.

So wait, there's 56 pages of this an no one here is yet to build a vaccum chamber and do tests? I know Mythbusters did it but people say it wasn't a vacuum because the rocket filled it with gas. Ok so use the smallest rocket (1/4A) I believe and a bigger chamber with a vacuum gauge attatched to make sure it stays a vacuum. Put your money where your mouth is at sheesh.

Newton's 3rd Law in Full:

F_ab=-F_ba

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 06:25:48 AM

Btw, where is that full version of Newton 3 I requested 56 pages ago?

Quote from: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

See, no mention of external mass.

Liar.

You omitted the part where Newton himself wrote 'or, the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts'.

You Liar.

You also avoided answering this, Liar:

Anyhoo; the rocket must be creating pressure against SOMETHING, hypnotoad...

What is it creating pressure against?

Any more Lies you feel like inflicting upon us, Liar?

Or are you just gonna use your sock puppets to spam your way free as usual?

Pathetic little man in his pathetic little Kingdom of Nothing, defending his pathetic little Shitpost Throne of Nowhere.

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 06:50:07 AM

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 06:25:48 AM

Btw, where is that full version of Newton 3 I requested 56 pages ago?

Quote from: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

See, no mention of external mass.

Liar.

You omitted the part where Newton himself wrote 'or, the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts'.

You are aware that the word "or" makes both cases independent of each other but both applicable?

From merriam-webster:

1 or play
conjunction \ər, ˈȯr, Southern also ˈär\
Definition of or
Popularity: Top 20% of words

    1
    —used as a function word to indicate an alternative <coffee or tea> <sink or swim>, the equivalent or substitutive character of two words or phrases <lessen or abate>, or approximation or uncertainty <in five or six days>

    2
    archaic :  either

    3
    archaic :  whether

    4
    —used in logic as a sentential connective that forms a complex sentence which is true when at least one of its constituent sentences is true — compare disjunction

Please learn to deal with your bias.

Please learn to deal with your bias.

Please learn to deal with what Newton actually wrote, markjo.

What a psychopath you are; trying to re-write the Laws of Physics to save your crumbling sci-fi fantasies!

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 06:50:07 AM

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 06:25:48 AM

Btw, where is that full version of Newton 3 I requested 56 pages ago?

Quote from: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

See, no mention of external mass.

Liar.

You omitted the part where Newton himself wrote 'or, the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts'.

I still don't see the word "external" in that quote.

You also avoided answering this, Liar:

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 06:25:48 AM

Anyhoo; the rocket must be creating pressure against SOMETHING, hypnotoad...

What is it creating pressure against?

FFS.  The rocket is not creating the pressure, the burning, expanding propellant is creating the pressure against the walls of the combustion chamber.

Stop treating the rocket as a single homogeneous entity.  A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Quote from: Generic Sock Puppet Conveniently Riding to Markjo's Rescue LOL!!! on February 23, 2016, 07:59:43 AM

Please learn to deal with your bias.

Please learn to deal with what Newton actually wrote, markjo.

What a psychopath you are; trying to re-write the Laws of Physics to save your crumbling sci-fi fantasies!

I did. I am saying that nothing in the law implies that it only applies to 2 or more body systems.  This is what the word "or" does.

Anyway, yes, the mass ejected from the rocket is not the same body as the rocket itself.

You are all sorts of wrong Legba.

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 06:15:04 AM

Rocket engines use high pressure to eject mass out the back end.  I don't see why that's so hard to accept.

Sneaky little edit there, markjo!

Just in time, eh?

LOL!!!

In fact, what a rocket is doing is combusting a gas in order to create pressure via F=pa.

This pressure must push against a second, external mass in order to produce motion...

And what mass is external to a rocket?

That's right - the atmosphere through which it moves!

At least that's what Newton 3 says...

Btw, where is that full version of Newton 3 I requested 56 pages ago?

LMAO!!!

Anyhoo; the rocket must be creating pressure against SOMETHING, hypnotoad...

What is it creating pressure against?

Enlighten us...

You really are a low-level thinker. The external mass that the combusting gas is pushing against is the rocket. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.

Physics 101

Really what is so hard to understand? The rocket is filled with rocket fuel. The rocket combusts the fuel. Combusted fuel (a.k.a. MASS) pushes out of the back of the rocket. When the fuel pushes the rocket, the rocket moves. HUH AHHHH what's happening? The rocket is moving!!

Which part are you having trouble understanding?

To add another facet to this concept (I know you'll have lots of trouble understanding this one), rockets within the atmosphere gain efficiency the faster they go (more operational thrust). The faster the rocket is moving, the less back pressure there is at the rocket's nozzle, allowing for a more rapid burn of the rocket's fuel. So, when a rocket is in a vaccum, it is operating at peak efficiency. Try wrapping your mind around that.

Because it IS a single homogeneous entity you psycho.

You admit it yourself in your very next sentence...

LOOK:

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Wtf is WRONG with you?!?

You actually think that a system can only consist of one homogenous entity? Actually?

I am saying that nothing in the law implies that it only applies to 2 or more body systems.

You are Lying.

Painfully & Obviously.

I still don't see the word "external" in that quote.

You see the word 'TWO' though don't you?

DON'T YOU?!?

Wtf do you think it's referring to if not a SECOND, i.e. EXTRINSIC, i.e. EXTERNAL body?

Idiot.

Stop treating the rocket as a single homogeneous entity.

No.

Because it IS a single homogeneous entity you psycho.

You admit it yourself in your very next sentence...

LOOK:

A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Wtf is WRONG with you?!?

The rocket is not creating the pressure

LMAO!!!

Then what is, you utter maniac?

the burning, expanding propellant is creating the pressure against the walls of the combustion chamber.

Really?

Is that your final answer?

Pressure in the combustion chamber moves the rocket?

Yes?

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

I still don't see the word "external" in that quote.

You see the word 'TWO' though don't you?

DON'T YOU?!?

Wtf do you think it's referring to if not a SECOND, i.e. EXTRINSIC, i.e. EXTERNAL body?

It's referring to two different bodies.  It says nothing about the physical or relative location of either of the bodies.  In fact, it doesn't even say that the bodies need to make physical contact with each other.  Or have you never heard of action at a distance (like gravitation, electromagnetism, etc.)?

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

Stop treating the rocket as a single homogeneous entity.

No.

Because it IS a single homogeneous entity you psycho.

You admit it yourself in your very next sentence...

LOOK:

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Since when is a system a single, homogeneous entity? 

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

The rocket is not creating the pressure

LMAO!!!

Then what is, you utter maniac?

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

the burning, expanding propellant is creating the pressure against the walls of the combustion chamber.

Really?

Is that your final answer?

Pressure in the combustion chamber moves the rocket?

Yes?

The pressure created by the expanding propellant inside the combustion chamber pushes the mass of the rocket engine one way and the mass of the burnt propellant the other way.

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 09:18:20 AM

Because it IS a single homogeneous entity you psycho.

You admit it yourself in your very next sentence...

LOOK:

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Wtf is WRONG with you?!?

You actually think that a system can only consist of one homogenous entity? Actually?

Yes, Rama, psychopathy and cognitive dissonance at its greatest. Papa legba doesn't know what to do with new information that conflicts with his indoctrinated beliefs.

Edit: Cognitive dissonance 101- change the meaning when it doesn't conform to vested interests.

^Gaslighting abusive PM sender.

^Does not understand the meaning of the word 'a'.

^Also Rayzor.

It's referring to two different bodies.  In fact, it doesn't even say that the bodies need to make physical contact with each other.

^Gone full retard.

Since when is a system a single, homogeneous entity?

^FULL retard.

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

the burning, expanding propellant is creating the pressure against the walls of the combustion chamber.

Really?

Is that your final answer?

Pressure in the combustion chamber moves the rocket?

Yes?

The pressure created by the expanding propellant inside the combustion chamber pushes the mass of the rocket engine one way and the mass of the burnt propellant the other way.

Oh, so now it's the pressure on the 'burnt propellant'?

LMFAO!!!

FULL, FULL RETARD.

Comedy Gold, markjo; you are a truly Lost Soul...

What won't you say to defend your Shitpost Throne of Nowhere?

Oh, so now it's the pressure on the 'burnt propellant'?

burnt propellant=ejected mass

Now can you please tell us why a system must consist of one discreet entity?  I am sure you can't do it, but it would be sporting of you to try.

Quote from: Generic sock puppet riding to markjo's rescue AGAIN - LMFAO!!! on February 23, 2016, 09:10:57 AM

I am saying that nothing in the law implies that it only applies to 2 or more body systems.

You are Lying.

Painfully & Obviously.

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

I still don't see the word "external" in that quote.

You see the word 'TWO' though don't you?

DON'T YOU?!?

Wtf do you think it's referring to if not a SECOND, i.e. EXTRINSIC, i.e. EXTERNAL body?

Idiot.

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

Stop treating the rocket as a single homogeneous entity.

No.

Because it IS a single homogeneous entity you psycho.

You admit it yourself in your very next sentence...

LOOK:

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

A rocket is a system made up of many working components that contribute to that system.

Wtf is WRONG with you?!?

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

The rocket is not creating the pressure

LMAO!!!

Then what is, you utter maniac?

Quote from: markjo on February 23, 2016, 09:05:14 AM

the burning, expanding propellant is creating the pressure against the walls of the combustion chamber.

Really?

Is that your final answer?

Pressure in the combustion chamber moves the rocket?

Yes?

First off, homogeneous is an incorrect term when referring to technology. Secondly, since you apparently can only read words when they are derived from biology, rockets are 'heterogeneous entities' consisting of multiple parts.

Heterogeneous-
composed of parts of different kinds; having widely dissimilar elements or constituents

To prove that rockets are heterogeneous and not homogeneous:
Rockets consist of multiple parts-
1. Outer body/shell (for aerodynamic purposes)
2. Combustion chamber (where the fuel is burnt to create forward movement)
3. Fuel (to create forward movement)

Now, I know I have left some parts of the rocket out, but I wanted to keep it simple so as to have a higher likelihood of getting across to you. Each part plays its own role relatively independent of each other. Of course each part works toward the same goal, but again, they each have their own tasks to accomplish.

Edit: Papa legba why don't you ever engage in debate with me? I'm feeling left out. I think it's because you know I know what I'm talking about. Please please please point out where you think I am gaslighting, or lying, or whatever you might think I am doing, and maybe we can get it cleared up.

Acording to legba, Gas isn't an object, except when that gas is in the atmosphere. I know, it makes no sense.

Acording to legba, Gas isn't an object, except when that gas is in the atmosphere. I know, it makes no sense.

Sidenote: Conflicting arguments from the FE side of the debate-
1. Rockets cannot work in a vaccum
2. The atmosphere should be blowing around at 1000mph

Something tells me that all physics have been thrown out the window and all we can rely on is our irrational judgement of the universe.

Yes, Rama, psychopathy and cognitive dissonance at its greatest. Papa legba doesn't know what to do with new information that conflicts with his indoctrinated beliefs.

Edit: Cognitive dissonance 101- change the meaning when it doesn't conform to vested interests.

I wonder if you have now changed your mind regarding sound travelling through the moons atmosphere ?

Have you adjusted your belief system after I corrected you on this false belief ?

I certainly hope so,
Always glad to help people break their indoctrinated false realities 


Edit - sound waves cannot travel through the moons atmosphere because it is so thin it's classed as a vacuum, NASA state density is on a par with the atmosphere around the ISS,
just in case you missed it

Quote from: GlobeDebunker on February 23, 2016, 09:43:47 AM

Yes, Rama, psychopathy and cognitive dissonance at its greatest. Papa legba doesn't know what to do with new information that conflicts with his indoctrinated beliefs.

Edit: Cognitive dissonance 101- change the meaning when it doesn't conform to vested interests.

I wonder if you have now changed your mind regarding sound travelling through the moons atmosphere ?

Have you adjusted your belief system after I corrected you on this false belief ?

I certainly hope so,
Always glad to help people break their indoctrinated false realities 


Edit - sound waves cannot travel through the moons atmosphere because it is so thin it's classed as a vacuum, NASA state density is on a par with the atmosphere around the ISS,
just in case you missed it

Ok, first off, this is a topic from another thread. Secondly, congratulations on taking a single bit of information completely out of context to make a feeble attempt at discrediting me. I will now go back to the thread you are speaking of and make my rebuttal there.

Do you have anything to contribute on the debate of how rockets work outside of our atmoSPHERE?

Edit: Yes, I have changed my 'belief system' as you so eloquently put it. I admit, before, it was a belief. Now that I have information from a respected source that tells me otherwise, I will take it into consideration the next time I engage in a debate on the subject.

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 10:01:26 AM

Oh, so now it's the pressure on the 'burnt propellant'?

burnt propellant=ejected mass

So now the 'ejected mass' is creating pressure on the 'ejected mass'?

So it's creating pressure on ITSELF?!?

LOL!!!

Where will your madness end?

Acording to legba, Gas isn't an object, except when that gas is in the atmosphere. I know, it makes no sense.

Wtf are you talking about now?

I've never said any such thing...

You've all gone full retard.

You have to if you want to keep pretending it's possible to PUSH ON NOTHING though...

Oh, & GlobeDebunker & feuk: GTFO my thread.

Quote from: legion on February 22, 2016, 01:19:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:06:43 PM

Claiming that a rocket pushes on the mass of its exhaust is a different story, however.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

The force acting on the bottle comes from the water in the pipe. There is a nail going through the pipe and the bottle. When the nail is released, the external pressure from the water in the pipe causes the bottle to accelerate upwards. How is that relevant to the thread?

Actually, the force acting on the bottle comes from the compressed air inside the bottle pushing against the bottle and the water inside the bottle.  It's relevant because the "external" force is coming from inside the bottle.

You are suggesting that water/air being pumped into the bottle is not an external force? I see. Each to their own, I suppose.

Anyway, having looked into it again, I agree, the expanding gas causes the bottle to move using the mass of the water to push against.

Is this relevant to rockets working in a vacuum?

Quote from: MARKJO NOT RAMA SET HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK WE ARE FFS? on February 23, 2016, 10:06:15 AM

Quote from: Papa Legba on February 23, 2016, 10:01:26 AM

Oh, so now it's the pressure on the 'burnt propellant'?

burnt propellant=ejected mass

So now the 'ejected mass' is creating pressure on the 'ejected mass'?

So it's creating pressure on ITSELF?!?

LOL!!!

Where will your madness end?

Quote from: SOKARUL NOT EMPIRICAL HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK WE ARE FFS? on February 23, 2016, 10:27:39 AM

Acording to legba, Gas isn't an object, except when that gas is in the atmosphere. I know, it makes no sense.

Wtf are you talking about now?

I've never said any such thing...

You've all gone full retard.

You have to if you want to keep pretending it's possible to PUSH ON NOTHING though...

Oh, & GlobeDebunker & feuk: GTFO my thread.

I have consistently been contributing to the content of this thread, so you can GFY. Also, way to misconstrue the information yet again. No surprise there. Lets see how you can misconstrue this bit of info:

Rocket->little explosions-> gas is expelled from rocket-> rocket goes one direction-> expelled gas aka spent fuel goes the opposite direction-> both sums of mass travel in opposite directions.

That's how you explain how rockets work in space/a vacuum!

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:27:48 PM

Quote from: legion on February 22, 2016, 01:19:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:06:43 PM

Claiming that a rocket pushes on the mass of its exhaust is a different story, however.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

The force acting on the bottle comes from the water in the pipe. There is a nail going through the pipe and the bottle. When the nail is released, the external pressure from the water in the pipe causes the bottle to accelerate upwards. How is that relevant to the thread?

Actually, the force acting on the bottle comes from the compressed air inside the bottle pushing against the bottle and the water inside the bottle.  It's relevant because the "external" force is coming from inside the bottle.

You are suggesting that water/air being pumped into the bottle is not an external force? I see. Each to their own, I suppose.

Anyway, having looked into it again, I agree, the expanding gas causes the bottle to move using the mass of the water to push against.

Is this relevant to rockets working in a vacuum?

I'm not sure what this person is suggesting, but you're pretty close to understanding how rockets work in a vacuum. The 'external force', as you like to call it, acting on the rocket is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground.

Edit: Yes, to answer your question it does pertain to how rockets work in a vacuum. See above for the analogy.

Quote from: legion on February 23, 2016, 12:41:21 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:27:48 PM

Quote from: legion on February 22, 2016, 01:19:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:06:43 PM

Claiming that a rocket pushes on the mass of its exhaust is a different story, however.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

The force acting on the bottle comes from the water in the pipe. There is a nail going through the pipe and the bottle. When the nail is released, the external pressure from the water in the pipe causes the bottle to accelerate upwards. How is that relevant to the thread?

Actually, the force acting on the bottle comes from the compressed air inside the bottle pushing against the bottle and the water inside the bottle.  It's relevant because the "external" force is coming from inside the bottle.

You are suggesting that water/air being pumped into the bottle is not an external force? I see. Each to their own, I suppose.

Anyway, having looked into it again, I agree, the expanding gas causes the bottle to move using the mass of the water to push against.

Is this relevant to rockets working in a vacuum?

I'm not sure what this person is suggesting, but you're pretty close to understanding how rockets work in a vacuum. The 'external force', as you like to call it, acting on the rocket is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground.

Edit: Yes, to answer your question it does pertain to how rockets work in a vacuum. See above for the analogy.

You're not sure what I'm suggesting? The "external force is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground?"

No offence, but you seem to be a complete fucking moron. On your way, loser.

gas is expelled from rocket->

Into vacuum...

Nothing happens.

Because science.

Toodle-pip, Anti-Science Retard!

You're not sure what I'm suggesting? The "external force is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground?"

No offence, but you seem to be a complete fucking moron. On your way, loser.

Another quality refutation by legion^TM!

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:27:48 PM

Quote from: legion on February 22, 2016, 01:19:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:06:43 PM

Claiming that a rocket pushes on the mass of its exhaust is a different story, however.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

The force acting on the bottle comes from the water in the pipe. There is a nail going through the pipe and the bottle. When the nail is released, the external pressure from the water in the pipe causes the bottle to accelerate upwards. How is that relevant to the thread?

Actually, the force acting on the bottle comes from the compressed air inside the bottle pushing against the bottle and the water inside the bottle.  It's relevant because the "external" force is coming from inside the bottle.

You are suggesting that water/air being pumped into the bottle is not an external force? I see. Each to their own, I suppose.

Anyway, having looked into it again, I agree, the expanding gas causes the bottle to move using the mass of the water to push against.

Is this relevant to rockets working in a vacuum?

You are saying that a gas moving out of a system isn't an external force.

Quote from: Sock Puppet Limpet on February 23, 2016, 12:53:47 PM

gas is expelled from rocket->

Into vacuum...

Nothing happens.

Because science.

Toodle-pip, Anti-Science Retard!

Gas is object 1, rocket is object 2, gas is moved by a force in one direction so the rocket as the only other object in the system moves in the opposite direction. Sorry I forgot, since you can't see a gas, it's not an object.

Quote from: legion on February 23, 2016, 01:09:38 PM

You're not sure what I'm suggesting? The "external force is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground?"

No offence, but you seem to be a complete fucking moron. On your way, loser.

Another quality refutation by legion^TM!

You're lucky I have a policy of never being unpleasant to old ladies. How are the grandchildren my dear? You should spend more time with them, and less with us!

Quote from: GlobeDebunker on February 23, 2016, 01:04:44 PM

Quote from: legion on February 23, 2016, 12:41:21 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:27:48 PM

Quote from: legion on February 22, 2016, 01:19:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on February 22, 2016, 01:06:43 PM

Claiming that a rocket pushes on the mass of its exhaust is a different story, however.
#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">! No longer available

The force acting on the bottle comes from the water in the pipe. There is a nail going through the pipe and the bottle. When the nail is released, the external pressure from the water in the pipe causes the bottle to accelerate upwards. How is that relevant to the thread?

Actually, the force acting on the bottle comes from the compressed air inside the bottle pushing against the bottle and the water inside the bottle.  It's relevant because the "external" force is coming from inside the bottle.

You are suggesting that water/air being pumped into the bottle is not an external force? I see. Each to their own, I suppose.

Anyway, having looked into it again, I agree, the expanding gas causes the bottle to move using the mass of the water to push against.

Is this relevant to rockets working in a vacuum?

I'm not sure what this person is suggesting, but you're pretty close to understanding how rockets work in a vacuum. The 'external force', as you like to call it, acting on the rocket is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground.

Edit: Yes, to answer your question it does pertain to how rockets work in a vacuum. See above for the analogy.

You're not sure what I'm suggesting? The "external force is the insertion of fuel into the rocket while the rocket is on the ground?"

No offence, but you seem to be a complete fucking moron. On your way, loser.

No, I'm not sure of what was being suggested by the person you suggested was suggesting.

I'm not offended by your derisions. I find it funny that you never address my points, but instead all you have for me are poorly formed insults that have no relevance to my statements.

Edit: And you were SO close to understanding how rockets work in a vacuum! One step forward and two steps back! Classic!