Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #600 on: February 12, 2016, 12:59:29 AM »
Papa it doesn't matter if the mass that is moved is fuel or not. What matters is that mass is moved. Conservation of momentum is applied along with laws of motion.

Again, then why ignite the fuel?

Why use a De Laval nozzle that actually RESTRICTS mass-flow?

Why do you have no coherent model of how a rocket functions?

Why do you deny proven laws of science?

Why do you always lurk on post 18 in order to get top post on the next page?

Why is time wasting, manipulation & disinfo your only purpose here?

*Yawn!*

Some of us have jobs to go to, Walter Mitty; see you later, Liar.

Igniting the fuel increases the mass flowrate and therefore increases velocity of the rocket.

The De Laval nozzle helps to actually increase velocity upon exit by converting heat into kinetic energy and thus improving the efficiency of the rocket and is velocity.

The model of how rockets work is very simple. Not our fault you don't understand basic physics.

Denying proven laws of science is your domain.

The only person who gives a remote damn about where a post appears is you.

All of my information is based upon fact and proven scientific data. Again, not my fault you don't understand basic concepts.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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markjo

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #601 on: February 12, 2016, 06:25:00 AM »
Again, then why ignite the fuel?
Because burning the fuel changes the liquid (or solid) propellant into a hot, expanding gas that has just as much mass, but far more kinetic energy than the unburned liquid (or solid) form. 

Why use a De Laval nozzle that actually RESTRICTS mass-flow?
Because convergent-divergent nozzles use Bernoulli's principle to accelerate the highly energetic gasses to far higher velocities than a simple hole at the end of a pipe would.

Why do you have no coherent model of how a rocket functions?
We do.  It's called the rocket thrust equation.

Why do you deny proven laws of science?
We don't.  We just know which ones are relevant and which ones aren't relevant.

Why do you always lurk on post 18 in order to get top post on the next page?
Why does it matter?  Can't you follow the discussion from page to page?

Why is time wasting, manipulation & disinfo your only purpose here?
Why must you put at least one personal attack in each of your posts?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rama Set

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #602 on: February 12, 2016, 07:21:19 AM »
In regards to the above, there are engines, such as ion thrusters, which do not combust fuel to create thrust.  Instead they use an electrical field to accelerate ions.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Papa Legba

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #603 on: February 12, 2016, 09:11:52 AM »
Igniting the fuel increases the mass flowrate

No it doesn't.

The rest of your post is just more bullshit derived from this initial Lie.

Nice try at puffing yourself up into a credible pseudo-scientist though...

I'm sure the idiots out there will find your act convincing.

The intelligent ones won't, though.

tl;dr - NO U!!!

Meh...

HERE IS SOME BULLSHIT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OP BUT SEEMS TO SUPPORT MY SPACE-FRAUD LIAR PALS THANK YOU & GOODBYE!

Your precious 'thrust equation' boils down to good old Force = pressure x area.

In a vacuum pressure can only be ZERO.

Ergo, Force=ZERO.

Simple stuff.

Of course, you could always provide simple experiments to prove me wrong?

Lol nah - you got nothing...

Toodle-pip, Disinfo-Tards!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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markjo

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #604 on: February 12, 2016, 09:29:14 AM »
Your precious 'thrust equation' boils down to good old Force = pressure x area.
No, it doesn't.  The thrust equation is mass flow x exit velocity plus the difference between exhaust pressure and ambient pressure x area.   Even if pressure x area = zero, the force provided by the mass flow x exit velocity is still there, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #605 on: February 12, 2016, 10:03:52 AM »
Even if pressure x area = zero, the force provided by the mass flow x exit velocity is still there, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

So why include it?

Why not just say thrust=mass flow x exit velocity?

Anyhoo; you seem to be settling on the idea that Pressure plays no part in creating rocket thrust.

Is this true?
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Rama Set

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #606 on: February 12, 2016, 10:56:25 AM »

Your precious 'thrust equation' boils down to good old Force = pressure x area.

In a vacuum pressure can only be ZERO.

Ergo, Force=ZERO.

Simple stuff.

Of course, you could always provide simple experiments to prove me wrong?

Lol nah - you got nothing...

Toodle-pip, Disinfo-Tards!

The thrust equation does not boil down to f=pa.

As for simple experiments, nothing shows rockets functioning in vacuums as simply as a rocket functioning in a vacuum.  You have been shown it multiple times and never shown that the demonstrations were a fraud.

Ball is in your court.  Now can you get back to insulting us again?  You are genuinely talented at that.  You should study buffoon at Ecole Jacque Lecoq.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #607 on: February 12, 2016, 11:14:26 AM »
The thrust equation does not boil down to f=pa.

Yes it does, general-purpose sock-puppet Rama Set.

And no, you have not shown me any genuine evidence of gas-powered rockets working in a vacuum at all.

You're just pretending you have, as usual.

You have no simple experiments I can do at home to support your case either.

Whereas I have plenty to support mine.

You cannot even agree on how a rocket works...

Is it Pressure in the combustion chamber? Is it mass-flow? You simply do not know.

What's more, none of the Laws of physics support your case.

Whereas they all support mine...

You basically have Nothing except the artificial peer-pressure you create through using multiple ID's.

And a bunch of sci-fi propaganda.

Anyhoo; I worked to build something useful IRL with my own two hands for a living today - what did you lot do?

LOL!!!

We all know what you did...

Toodle-pip, 16-hour shifts of being Paid Internet Liars!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Rama Set

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #608 on: February 12, 2016, 11:32:17 AM »
You have no simple experiments I can do at home to support your case either.

Wait.  You want a simple experiment you can do, from home to show rockets work in the vacuum of space?

I need you to confirm this before anything can continue.  A simple yes/no will suffice.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

?

Papa Legba

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #609 on: February 12, 2016, 11:46:12 AM »
No, 'ramy baby' (lol busted!), I want a simple experiment that supports your model of how a rocket functions.

But as you do not have a coherent model of how a rocket functions you cannot give me one.

All you seem to have is a man on a skateboard throwing a ball.

Which is inapplicable as it does not deal with gasses, does it?

So; that leaves you with nothing but sock-puppets & propaganda, don't it, 'ramy baby'?

LOL!!!

What a farce this place is...

Btw; what DID you do for a living today, 'ramy baby'?
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #610 on: February 12, 2016, 12:30:16 PM »
Papa it doesn't matter if the mass that is moved is fuel or not. What matters is that mass is moved. Conservation of momentum is applied along with laws of motion.

Nonsense. Conservation of momentum only applies to a closed system (from wikipedia):

Quote
In a closed system (one that does not exchange any matter with its surroundings and is not acted on by external forces) the total momentum is constant. This fact, known as the law of conservation of momentum, is implied by Newton's laws of motion.

Here is a closed system:



Quote
A Newton's cradle demonstrates conservation of momentum.

Here is an open system:



Is this system open or closed:



You anti-science people are sickening.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #611 on: February 12, 2016, 12:38:27 PM »
I didn't think newtons cradle was a closed system ???

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #612 on: February 12, 2016, 12:43:52 PM »
I didn't think newtons cradle was a closed system ???

Well then, you are lost. No surprise there.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #613 on: February 12, 2016, 12:45:55 PM »
I didn't think newtons cradle was a closed system ???

Well then, you are lost. No surprise there.

Evidence?

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #614 on: February 12, 2016, 12:46:31 PM »
I didn't think newtons cradle was a closed system ???

Well then, you are lost. No surprise there.

Evidence?

On your way anti-science buffoon.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #615 on: February 12, 2016, 12:47:29 PM »
I didn't think newtons cradle was a closed system ???

Well then, you are lost. No surprise there.

Evidence?

On your way anti-science buffoon.

It's ok, I know the truth.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/newtons-cradle5.htm

"The reason it's not, though, is that the law of conservation only works in a closed system, which is one that is free from any external force -- and the Newton's cradle is not a closed system. As Ball Five swings out away from the rest of the balls, it also swings up. As it does so, it's affected by the force of gravity, which works to slow the ball down."


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markjo

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #616 on: February 12, 2016, 12:48:48 PM »
Even if pressure x area = zero, the force provided by the mass flow x exit velocity is still there, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

So why include it?

Why not just say thrust=mass flow x exit velocity?
Because the pressure of the exhaust gasses expanding against the engine bell creates an additional force.

Anyhoo; you seem to be settling on the idea that Pressure plays no part in creating rocket thrust.

Is this true?
No, it isn't and I have no idea of where you may have gotten that idea.  The equation for mass flow rate includes a parameter for total pressure.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rama Set

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #617 on: February 12, 2016, 12:49:59 PM »
The transference of momentum from the explosion inside the grenade to it's casing is a closed system.  The transference of momentum from the fractured casing to the environment surround it is an open system for all intents and purposes.

As for the rocket, I remember asking you if it was an open or closed system and you dodged it, now you are asking us.  Why not just answer it yourself?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #618 on: February 12, 2016, 12:53:38 PM »
Just lol at legion getting destroyed over and over  ;D

Better message your papa  :-*

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #619 on: February 12, 2016, 01:03:10 PM »
Just lol at legion getting destroyed over and over  ;D

Better message your papa  :-*

I got destroyed did I? Keep dreaming.

Does Newton's Cradle demonstrate conservation of momentum?
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #620 on: February 12, 2016, 01:13:59 PM »
Just lol at legion getting destroyed over and over  ;D

Better message your papa  :-*

I got destroyed did I? Keep dreaming.

Does Newton's Cradle demonstrate conservation of momentum?

Yep.


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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #621 on: February 12, 2016, 01:14:21 PM »
The transference of momentum from the explosion inside the grenade to it's casing is a closed system.  The transference of momentum from the fractured casing to the environment surround it is an open system for all intents and purposes.

As for the rocket, I remember asking you if it was an open or closed system and you dodged it, now you are asking us.  Why not just answer it yourself?

The answer is yes it is open. The answer has always been yes. It's part of the definition of whether a system is open or closed:

"A closed system is one that does not exchange any matter with its surroundings and is not acted upon by external forces."

A rocket ejects matter so is therefore an open system. To suggest I would have dodged such a question requires a citation.

Come back when you have found it.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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markjo

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #622 on: February 12, 2016, 01:15:27 PM »
Just lol at legion getting destroyed over and over  ;D

Better message your papa  :-*

I got destroyed did I? Keep dreaming.

Does Newton's Cradle demonstrate conservation of momentum?
Yes, in the form of an elastic collision.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #623 on: February 12, 2016, 01:38:46 PM »
Just lol at legion getting destroyed over and over  ;D

Better message your papa  :-*

I got destroyed did I? Keep dreaming.

Does Newton's Cradle demonstrate conservation of momentum?
Yes, in the form of an elastic collision.


Good. You people are able to stop wriggling when pressed. Much like you are able to begrudgingly acknowledge that an external force is needed to accelerate something.

We just need to make you understand where an external force can originate from.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #624 on: February 12, 2016, 01:48:16 PM »
Newtons Cradle does demonstrate conservation of energy, but it ain't a closed system.


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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #625 on: February 12, 2016, 01:53:58 PM »
Newtons Cradle does demonstrate conservation of energy, but it ain't a closed system.

If there is no such thing as a closed system, there is no such thing as conservation of momentum.

"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #626 on: February 12, 2016, 02:12:48 PM »
Newtons Cradle does demonstrate conservation of energy, but it ain't a closed system.

If there is no such thing as a closed system, there is no such thing as conservation of momentum.

Do we agree that the Newtons Cradle isn't perpetual?

It's a device/educational tool.



« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 02:14:42 PM by Andromeda Galaxy »

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #627 on: February 12, 2016, 02:31:41 PM »
Newtons Cradle does demonstrate conservation of energy, but it ain't a closed system.

If there is no such thing as a closed system, there is no such thing as conservation of momentum.

Do we agree that the Newtons Cradle isn't perpetual?

It's a device/educational tool.

A device educating what?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 02:33:13 PM by legion »
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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markjo

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #628 on: February 12, 2016, 02:46:59 PM »
Good. You people are able to stop wriggling when pressed. Much like you are able to begrudgingly acknowledge that an external force is needed to accelerate something.

We just need to make you understand where an external force can originate from.
I don't think that anyone is denying that external forces are needed to accelerate a mass.  The disagreement seems to be just what constitutes an external force. 

You yourself provided a reference stating that external forces arise from unbalanced forces within a system.  Do you agree with that assertion?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rayzor

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #629 on: February 12, 2016, 02:49:54 PM »
Newtons Cradle does demonstrate conservation of energy, but it ain't a closed system.

If there is no such thing as a closed system, there is no such thing as conservation of momentum.

Do we agree that the Newtons Cradle isn't perpetual?

It's a device/educational tool.

A device educating what?

Why am i not surprised that education is a foreign concept to you.   
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.