Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.

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Papa Legba

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Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« on: January 27, 2016, 11:58:49 AM »
They cannot.

Newton's Laws of Motion, especially his 3rd, & the Joule-Thomson effect, i.e. Free Expansion of gas in a vacuum, both support this undeniable scientific Fact.

However, there appears to be a psychotic fraud-mod on this forum, pretending to be a 'rocket scientist' (lol he doesn't even know the basics!), who is determined to prevent you understanding this scientifically-established & experimentally-verifiable Fact...

So; here we go again!

A vacuum is Nothing; the very definition of the word in fact.

First question: how can you push on nothing?

Please supply the FULL definition of Newton's 3rd Law before answering, please!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Xenos2112

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 12:18:38 PM »
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction is the basic colloquialism of Newton's 3rd Law of Motion.

Are we agreed that his Law is correct?  The assumption that we agree on that point is the basis on which my argument proceeds.

Fuel shoots out the end of a rocket.  This propels it forward.  Much like you standing on a furniture dolly (the kind with four wheels) and throwing a weight.  You will be propelled backwards.  Not very far, but that's because your mass is greater than the mass you threw.  This is why it takes so much rocket fuel to get anywhere, and why without further development on something like an EM drive, there's really no hope of ever getting past Jupiter (or MAYBE Saturn) in my kid's lifetime with a manned mission.

Put another way, open up a firehose to full-blast.  It whips around and is a REAL PAIN to hold in place, because the thrust generated by the water coming out of the end. 

My two cents,
~Xenos, Stranger in a Strange Land
There is nothing impossible to him who will try.

I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.

Alexander III of Macedon, Emperor of the Known World, 336-323 BC

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 12:30:45 PM »
Quote
Law III: To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts.

-- Wikipedia

You can't push on nothing, buddy. These clowns can't comprehend the problem. Have you mentioned the horse and cart problem? Discussed in a slightly different way here:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45653/with-newtons-third-law-why-are-things-capable-of-moving

"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 12:32:23 PM »
Quote
Law III: To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts.

-- Wikipedia

You can't push on nothing, buddy. These clowns can't comprehend the problem. Have you mentioned the horse and cart problem? Discussed in a slightly different way here:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45653/with-newtons-third-law-why-are-things-capable-of-moving

Gas pushes rocket. Rocket pushes gas.

Newtons 3rd alive and well.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Xenos2112

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 12:34:53 PM »
Quote
Law III: To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts.

-- Wikipedia

You can't push on nothing, buddy. These clowns can't comprehend the problem. Have you mentioned the horse and cart problem? Discussed in a slightly different way here:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45653/with-newtons-third-law-why-are-things-capable-of-moving

Gas pushes rocket. Rocket pushes gas.

Newtons 3rd alive and well.

Put far better and more succinct than I did, but yes, that's the gist of it. 

Of course, in this particular forum, I'm learning it should be amended to "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism."
There is nothing impossible to him who will try.

I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.

Alexander III of Macedon, Emperor of the Known World, 336-323 BC

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 12:44:34 PM »
From the Stackexhange link, the relevant parts are below for discussion:

The Question:

Quote
When I push a table using my finger, the table applies the same force onto my finger like my finger does on the table just with an opposing direction, nothing happens except that I feel the opposing force.

But why can I push a box on a table by applying force (F=maF=ma) on one side, obviously outbalancing the force the box has on my finger and at the same time outbalancing the friction the box has on the table?

I obviously have the greater mass and acceleration as for example the matchbox on the table and thusly I can move it, but shouldn't the third law prevent that from even happening? Shouldn't the matchbox just accommodate to said force and applying same force to me in opposing direction?


I've found a lot of answers considering that question but none was satisfying to an extend that I had an epiphany solving my fundamental problem I've got understanding it.

The Answer:

Quote
While Fmatchbox does press back on my finger with an equal magnitude to Ffinger, it's no match for Fmuscles (even though I've not been to the gym in years).

At the matchbox, the forward force from my finger overcomes the friction force from the table. Each object has an imbalance of forces giving rise to acceleration leftwards.

The point of the diagram is to make clear that the third law makes matched pairs of forces that act on different objects. Equilibrium from Newton's first or second law is about the resultant force at a single object.

Another answer:

Quote
Good! This question implies that you're thinking hard and questioning the laws. It turns out that you are misunderstanding Newton's 2nd Law though. Motion on a body is due to an external force. F1 acts on your box, but not F2. An object can never act on itself.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 12:51:43 PM by legion »
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 12:53:49 PM »
To spell it out. The gas pushing on the rocket and the rocket pushing on the gas results in...

EQUILIBRIUM!

No acceleration of the system whatsoever.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 01:05:50 PM »
You can build your own vacuum chamber and test whether rockets can work. BTW OP, do you think thrust comes from pushing on the air? Do you have proof ofthis if that's what you believe?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 01:13:34 PM »
Conservation of momentum, the end.
If you say conservation of momentum doesn't apply to gasses, don't planes break conservation of momentum, the plane gains momentum yet nothing can gain momentum to cancel it out.

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 01:17:24 PM »
Conservation of momentum, the end.
If you say conservation of momentum doesn't apply to gasses, don't planes break conservation of momentum, the plane gains momentum yet nothing can gain momentum to cancel it out.

Quote
Conservation of momentum is a fundamental law of physics which states that the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces acting on the system. It is embodied in Newton's first law (the law of inertia).

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ConservationofMomentum.html

 

So, what is the external force on a rocket (system)? Or is the cited definition incorrect?
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2016, 01:22:47 PM »
There can't be an external force on the system, it's in a vacuum, since there is no external force the net momentum will stay constant, since the gas can only exit into the vacuum in one direction the gas will gain momentum, hence for the net momentum to stay constant the rocket must gain an opposite momentumn

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 01:23:31 PM »
Here is the Wikipedia definition:

Quote
In a closed system (one that does not exchange any matter with its surroundings and is not acted on by external forces) the total momentum is constant. This fact, known as the law of conservation of momentum, is implied by Newton's laws of motion.

A rocket is clearly not a closed system according to this definition. So, the conservation of momentum does not apply.

Even if it did, you would still get no motion without an external force acting on the system.

Unless both definitions are incorrect?
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 01:26:12 PM »
There can't be an external force on the system, it's in a vacuum, since there is no external force the net momentum will stay constant, since the gas can only exit into the vacuum in one direction the gas will gain momentum, hence for the net momentum to stay constant the rocket must gain an opposite momentumn

Keep telling yourself whatever you just wrote!
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 01:27:55 PM »
If you define the system has being the rocket and the gas contained in it, it is a closed system, what other object could interact with it.

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 01:39:13 PM »
As already discussed. By 25000ft a rocket has lost 50% of its thrust. By 250k ft a rocket engine with 147,000lb thrust now has 4lbs of thrust. This is saying a rocket needs to push of atmosphere. If you believe a rocket needs to push off atmosphere you are an idiot. And clearly do not understand physics.

1. There are hundreds of satellites you can see each night including the ISS if your lucky. A small telescope reveals there details. Shape including solar panels.

2. There are countless missions to planets and asteroids. Basic google search and you can find many photos.

3. There are shuttle launches with cameras stuck to the tanks all the way up to 50km before stage separation where the rocket should drop out of the sky by 25000ft. But it doesn't.

They must be doing something right for any of this to happen.

Papa also needs to learn what free expansion is, conclusion of experiments and the laws of thermodynamics for closed and open systems.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 01:42:34 PM by TylerJRB »

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2016, 01:41:52 PM »
I predict that this thread will end up with 50ish pages, with no progress made.

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2016, 01:44:24 PM »
Your prediction is likely 100% correct  8)

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sokarul

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2016, 01:45:52 PM »
Object B is the exhaust.
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2016, 02:30:49 PM »
As already discussed. By 25000ft a rocket has lost 50% of its thrust. By 250k ft a rocket engine with 147,000lb thrust now has 4lbs of thrust. This is saying a rocket needs to push of atmosphere. If you believe a rocket needs to push off atmosphere you are an idiot. And clearly do not understand physics.

I think you are an idiot with no understanding of physics. No system moves without an external force being applied to it. Rockets work in an atmosphere (which gives that external force).

In space? Forget it. I know you believe in all the Star Wars shit, but really, try using your brain.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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Slemon

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2016, 02:33:43 PM »
Wow, this discussion is back again. I predict another good 100 pages of evading the question as to how exhaust could be part of the rocket, and how exhaust can accelerate outwards without imparting a force.

Ah well, let's try a different tack.

Papa Legba, why should we listen to a known illuminati shill like you?

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2016, 02:44:00 PM »
Wow, this discussion is back again. I predict another good 100 pages of evading the question as to how exhaust could be part of the rocket, and how exhaust can accelerate outwards without imparting a force.

Ah well, let's try a different tack.

Papa Legba, why should we listen to a known illuminati shill like you?

What is the external force on the system?
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

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Slemon

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2016, 02:47:53 PM »
What is the external force on the system?
More evasion as expected. The chemical reaction causes a force. If you want to talk about 'external' and 'system' then define what it is you mean by the system.
Having the system be the rocket and all the fuel is just silly, as some fuel is left behind.

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legion

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2016, 02:49:26 PM »
What is the external force on the system?
More evasion as expected. The chemical reaction causes a force. If you want to talk about 'external' and 'system' then define what it is you mean by the system.
Having the system be the rocket and all the fuel is just silly, as some fuel is left behind.

The chemical reaction is an internal force. Next.
"Indoctrination [...] is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned".

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2016, 02:50:24 PM »
Gas pushes rocket. Rocket pushes gas.

Pity there's no gas.
I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses - Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

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Slemon

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2016, 02:52:48 PM »
The chemical reaction is an internal force. Next.
So, the chemical reaction does not accelerate?

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sokarul

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 02:53:13 PM »
Gas pushes rocket. Rocket pushes gas.

Pity there's no gas.
Except for the tons of exhaust.
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 02:56:39 PM »
Gas pushes rocket. Rocket pushes gas.

Pity there's no gas.

Other than the shit load that comes out the hole at the bottom.....
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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rabinoz

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2016, 03:07:19 PM »
They cannot.
Newton's Laws of Motion, especially his 3rd, & the Joule-Thomson effect, i.e. Free Expansion of gas in a vacuum, both support this undeniable scientific Fact.
However, there appears to be a psychotic fraud-mod on this forum, pretending to be a 'rocket scientist' (lol he doesn't even know the basics!), who is determined to prevent you understanding this scientifically-established & experimentally-verifiable Fact...
So; here we go again!
A vacuum is Nothing; the very definition of the word in fact.
First question: how can you push on nothing?
Please supply the FULL definition of Newton's 3rd Law before answering, please!
No, clearly (in your highly esteemed opinion) we have it all wrong, so the only hope is for you to:
"Please supply the FULL definition of Newton's 3rd Law" and while you are at it
Your understanding of the Joule-Thomson effect.

Your answer is much appreciated!

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rabinoz

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Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM »
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction is the basic colloquialism of Newton's 3rd Law of Motion.

Are we agreed that his Law is correct?  The assumption that we agree on that point is the basis on which my argument proceeds.

Fuel shoots out the end of a rocket.  This propels it forward.  Much like you standing on a furniture dolly (the kind with four wheels) and throwing a weight.  You will be propelled backwards.  Not very far, but that's because your mass is greater than the mass you threw.  This is why it takes so much rocket fuel to get anywhere, and why without further development on something like an EM drive, there's really no hope of ever getting past Jupiter (or MAYBE Saturn) in my kid's lifetime with a manned mission.

Put another way, open up a firehose to full-blast.  It whips around and is a REAL PAIN to hold in place, because the thrust generated by the water coming out of the end. 

My two cents,
~Xenos, Stranger in a Strange Land

I see you are fairly new here, you just don't know how strange!  The originator of this thread (PL) almost tops the list, but he has plenty of competition!

Sure, there are a lot that quite agree with what you say (including myself), but this same topic (under different guises) has been going on from before I was around, and our dear "friend" keeps hammering his NSF[nb]for Non Scientific Fiction[/nb].

Just prepare to be entertained - if you like high farce - maybe brush up on your Terry Pratchett!


Re: Rockets cannot work in a Vacuum.
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2016, 03:20:53 PM »
Other than the shit load that comes out the hole at the bottom.....

I didn't know we were talking about poor ol' Neil, just before the interview after "Apollo" 11, my bad...
I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses - Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)