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Voting closed: November 27, 2006, 11:22:13 AM

Sugar

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Sugar
« on: November 27, 2006, 11:22:13 AM »
"What a terrible smell" my father asked, "what could it be?"

"They're boiling sugar beets", I said, "there's a sugar factory here."  We were passing through Cantley in Norfolk, England.

Sugar beets make syrup, and bread, and you can use them as a vegetable, almost anything. Having sugar beets, and little else, instilled in me a hatred of refined beet sugar that has never gone away. Not a hatred of sweet things, mind you; just of that one hideous product.

Hideous because refined sugar is, in the nutritional sense, the most unnecessary, even dangerous substance imaginable. The famous French slimming guru Michel Montignac put it, "sugar", he said in his book Eat Yourself Slim, "is a poison and should be treated as such."

Couldn't agree more. And of all sugars, it happens to be beet sugar that is by some distance the worst. Cane sugar, although just as unnecessary, is a bit better. Honey a bit better yet. But honestly, all of these are best avoided and replaced by artificial sweeteners, of which there is now a great variety.

A poison it is, but how addicted the world seems to be to it. People put it in absolutely everything, so that even the most fervent sugar hater can't avoid taking it in unless he gives all processed foods a wide berth. Open a tin of peas and you'll find there's sugar in it. A frozen TV dinner: ditto. A simple loaf of bread: the same. There's sugar everywhere. No surprise, really, for sugar is a huge business; the world annually produces in the region of 135 million tonnes of the stuff.

The EU fears 'the European sugar revolution'. The first shot in this bloody conflict was going to be fired by the European Commissioner for agriculture, Denmark's Mariann Fischer Boel who has drawn up a plan for the drastic reduction - a phasing out, rather - of all subsidies for sugar farmers. As things stand, European sugar beet growers are guaranteed a price for their product that is three times higher than the world market price.

A slap in the face for sugar farmers in the rest of the world, especially in developing countries like Brazil, India, Thailand and Mexico who find it all but impossible to compete. Even their own domestic markets are distorted by huge dumping of European sugar; a high guaranteed price is an open invitation to excess production. Thus, Europe produces not one but three types of sugar: A sugar (for EU consumption), B sugar (for reserve stocks) and C sugar (excess for dumping in poor countries and putting their cane farmers out of business).

High time that an end was put to this selfish dishonesty (or is it dishonest selfishness?) and Ms Fischer Boel has my full support. If she manages to convince the 25 European agriculture ministers of the rightness of her scheme then be prepared for a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth from among the European farming community.  A sugar cube is a small price to pay for fairness.

The one problem with the Commissioner's plan is that it will also dversely affect many sugar farmers in poor countries such as Jamaica, Mozambique and Malawi, who have a special deal with the EU allowing them to sell quantities of cane sugar to Europe at the guaranteed EU price.

They, too, will see their income drop by about 40 percent over the next two years. A generous compensation scheme - to tide them over until they've switched to a less harmful and teeth-rotting type of crop - would be the least the EU could do for them.

But still. Sugar? There ought to be a law.

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Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 12:07:57 PM »

Gimmie some sugar, baby.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

Sugar
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 11:25:11 PM »
Yes, let's replace sugars with artificial sweeteners.

Then we can replace all the tea with tea-flavored extract, meat with meat-flavored tofu and pizza with bread that has ketchup and kraft cheese on it.  Tastes just the same, doesn't it?

Yes, refined sugar is "addictive" in much the same way purified water or strained orange juice is.  Thanks but I like the pulp out of my juice and the chlorine out of my water.

Certainly, this society's dependence on refined sugar is painful at best (what with obesity and diabetes through the roof these days), but you take that sugar-stuff (technically what's in sodas in the US and more and more of the world every day is corn syrup, but that's not much different) out of my soda, and hell, I'll find some other way to get my sugar.

I freaking like it.  And if I'm addicted to sugar, then I'm also addicted to crappy movies and deoderant.  We don't need deoderant, and many studies have shown it has harmful side-effects.  But we put it on anyway because we feel the benifits far outweigh the potential risks.

And if you don't, I'm glad this is all typing and not talking. ;)
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

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sam712

Sugar
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 11:44:24 PM »
Artificial sweeteners are much, much, much worse than normal refined sugar. Sugar subtitutes are the same. Aspartame, margarine, they should all be considered slow and painfully killing toxins when compared to normal sugar.

Besides, you NEED sugar in your body, just like cholesterol. It is essential to your health, you just need only a small amount of it. :wink:

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sam712

Sugar
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 11:47:25 PM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
Yes, let's replace sugars with artificial sweeteners.

Then we can replace all the tea with tea-flavored extract, meat with meat-flavored tofu and pizza with bread that has ketchup and kraft cheese on it.  Tastes just the same, doesn't it?


You get a cookie and a thanks!

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beast

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Sugar
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 05:30:25 AM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
I like the pulp out of my juice


I now officially hate you and any body else who prefers pulp in their orange juice.  You just lost all credibility as a person.  :x

Sugar
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 05:34:14 AM »
beast, that was confusing. You hate someone for having pulp out, but then choose to hate everyone else with?

XD


Anyways, it's a biologically proven fact that sugar is required for the human body to function.

Therefore, this argument = fail.
RE*
Try not to be -too- much of an idiot. Or I'll rape you verbally.

1 out of 9 members on this forum that can spell properly.

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beast

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Sugar
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 05:50:25 AM »
Hmm yes, these Tuesday after work drinks are not as successful as I first thought... :P  I did mean that I hate people without the pulp.  People who keep the pulp in the juice are my friends.  I am really intoxicated right now, so that is my excuse.

Sugar
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 05:53:57 AM »
Well being drunk is better than an alcoholic (although, alcoholism isn't a disease, it's bullshit, as been proven by the show :D)

An alcoholic is a drunk in denial xD
RE*
Try not to be -too- much of an idiot. Or I'll rape you verbally.

1 out of 9 members on this forum that can spell properly.

?

Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 07:35:06 AM »
Quote from: "mattz1010"
(although, alcoholism isn't a disease, it's bullshit, as been proven by the show :D)


I love Pen & Teller, but TV shows can't prove everything.  Why don't they tell my dead grandfather that he did not have a disease?  The man drank himself to death.

Anyway.  Everyone else here is right, "Sara".  Sugar is an essential need, and artificial sweeteners are even more dangerous.  At the cell level, Glucose (which other sugars are transformed into during digestion) is needed for respiration.  No sugar, cells die--you die.

Not to mention, a large portion of the population is allergic to artificial sweeteners (my ex included--she's even allergic to Splenda), and they all taste like shit anyway.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

Sugar
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2006, 09:25:14 AM »
Does the committee seriously believe pure sugar should be available for purchase in one kilo (two pound) bags, without a heavy dose of regulation and tax?

Other essential needs include Dopamine and Ethyl Alcohol, neither of which can be purchased by ten years olds without restriction.  Children can make their own (I don't mean with junior chemistry kits).

Most chemicals - of which Sucrose is one - should be available for purchase by adults, but no one seriously suggests hiding Caffeine, Cannabis or Diamorphine in breakfast cereal, or their copious sale in pure form without warning and/or to children.

I feel a little sick when I see fat nurses stub out a cigarette and then complain about the long term prescription of Diamorphine.

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Rick_James

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Sugar
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2006, 10:31:02 PM »
Quote from: "Sara H B Ranson"
I feel a little sick when I see fat nurses stub out a cigarette and then complain about the long term prescription of Diamorphine.


Do you see this often? If so I suggest switching hospitals.... :shock:

Sugar
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2006, 02:24:46 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
Quote from: "mattz1010"
(although, alcoholism isn't a disease, it's bullshit, as been proven by the show :D)


I love Pen & Teller, but TV shows can't prove everything.  Why don't they tell my dead grandfather that he did not have a disease?  The man drank himself to death.

Anyway.  Everyone else here is right, "Sara".  Sugar is an essential need, and artificial sweeteners are even more dangerous.  At the cell level, Glucose (which other sugars are transformed into during digestion) is needed for respiration.  No sugar, cells die--you die.

Not to mention, a large portion of the population is allergic to artificial sweeteners (my ex included--she's even allergic to Splenda), and they all taste like shit anyway.


It's an addiction, if anything.

By "drank to death", you could either mean, he died of alcohol posioning, or was drinking close to when he died "of old age"
RE*
Try not to be -too- much of an idiot. Or I'll rape you verbally.

1 out of 9 members on this forum that can spell properly.

?

Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2006, 02:37:12 PM »
I would consider addiction to be a disease.  Alcoholism in particular is inheritable.  I don't see how it's any different from inheriting a disease.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

Sugar
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2006, 12:36:11 AM »
Quote from: "Sara H B Ranson"
Does the committee seriously believe pure sugar should be available for purchase in one kilo (two pound) bags, without a heavy dose of regulation and tax?

Other essential needs include Dopamine and Ethyl Alcohol, neither of which can be purchased by ten years olds without restriction.  Children can make their own (I don't mean with junior chemistry kits).

Most chemicals - of which Sucrose is one - should be available for purchase by adults, but no one seriously suggests hiding Caffeine, Cannabis or Diamorphine in breakfast cereal, or their copious sale in pure form without warning and/or to children.

I feel a little sick when I see fat nurses stub out a cigarette and then complain about the long term prescription of Diamorphine.


Do these chemicals you mention occur in large doses inside natural foods?  Fallacy alert!
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

Sugar
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2006, 01:14:50 AM »
Quote from: "DragonXero"
Quote from: "Sara H B Ranson"
[ . . . ] Dopamine and Ethyl Alcohol, [ . . ] Sucrose [ . . . ] Caffeine, Cannabis or Diamorphine [ . . ].


Do these chemicals you mention occur in large doses inside natural foods?  Fallacy alert!


Not one of them - Dopamine, Ethyl Alcohol, Sucrose, Caffeine, Cannabis or Diamorphine - occurs in large doses inside natural foods.

Where is the fallacy?

Why make an exception for Sucrose?

Sugar
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2006, 02:09:14 AM »
Last I checked, apples were pretty readily available.
And most people can get their hands on sugarcane and sugarbeets.  These are natural foods.

And cigarettes are not food.  Cannabis is rarely used as a food.  Sometimes as a spice, but you don't see many people making herb salads these days.  Though, if I ever go to Amsterdam, I'm gettin' one.

Really?  You know of some naturally occuring foods I can get drunk off of?  I do, but then there's the buying the yeast and the waiting for freaking ever for it to ferment properly...  It's not naturally occuring in foods.  It IS a natural chemical reaction that can happen TO foods, but sugar doesn't need a process.  It's just there.

Caffeine exists in coffee, chocolate and tea (among many other things).
I've never had to present an ID to buy coffee, chocolate or tea.

Dopamine is produced naturally in the human body.  No external source is needed.  But if you want to talk about addictions, there's one.  Why would someone be happy?  Dopamine levels are high.  They create a pleasurable sensation when the body is prepared for happiness.

By your theory, we should really be regulating sex.

... Never mind.  Stupid government and their idiotic laws.

When it comes down to it, yes we need to cut back on the sugar supply in this country.  No we shouldn't do it by depriving people of their liberties further.
Your argument is "should we", not "could it happen".  Should alcohol be available only to those over 21?  Apparently those at 18 are responsible enough to fire a weapon in the most hellish places on earth, but they're not responsible enough for liquor?  On the flip side, a 16 year old is considered mature enough to drive a car?

Sugar, be it natural or not, is a needed thing.  When science has come up with a true sugar replacement that tastes exactly like sugar without that nasty aftertaste?  I'll think about it.  As it is, the newest invention (Splenda/Sucralose) is slightly less nasty tasting than Nutra-sweet.

As for replacing anything else?  Ever had an olestra chip?  Yeah, me too.  Not doing that again.
Worst. Gas. Ever.
on't just believe anything.  Believe what seems right.

Sugar
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2006, 02:35:40 AM »
Dopamine, Ethyl Alcohol, Sucrose, Caffeine, Cannabis and Diamorphine are all chemicals, all of them potentially harmful, and only one is available in unrestrcited pure form:  Sucrose.

People can get their hands on various foods containing sugar.  In England, you can buy Morphine over the counter at any pharmacy, in a 3% mixture called Kaolin and Morphine, but you don't equate that to the unrestricted sale of Morphine.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100001398.html

We can buy a material called Hemp - I gather if you smoke it for long enough you'll get high.

Big difference between these, and the one kilo bags of the chemical Sucrose, available to everyone.  In the UK, we don't even pay sales tax on Sucrose.

?

Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2006, 09:19:58 AM »
ANYTHING without moderation is potentially dangerous.  You can die of overhydration for fuck's sake.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

*

midgard

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Sugar
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2006, 09:20:53 AM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
ANYTHING without moderation is potentially dangerous.  You can die of overhydration for frak's sake.


What about jerking off? I know if you do it too many times it can start to hurt but is it dangerous?

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Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2006, 09:22:08 AM »
In context, we're talking about consuming things.  Don't take it out of context.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

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midgard

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Sugar
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2006, 09:24:13 AM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
In context, we're talking about consuming things.  Don't take it out of context.


Gotcha. I just thought I'd redirect the conversation to a happier subject.

Sugar
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2006, 10:07:36 AM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
ANYTHING without moderation is potentially dangerous.  You can die of overhydration for frak's sake.


I don't know anything about the chemical Anything.  Something can be gainned from banning anything but then we'd be able to buy nothing.

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Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2006, 11:13:46 AM »
Oh, come on.  Now you're just being a pain in the ass.
Nomad is a superhero.

8/30 NEVAR FORGET

?

BOGWarrior89

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Sugar
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2006, 11:21:13 AM »
Quote from: "Sara H B Ranson"
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
ANYTHING without moderation is potentially dangerous.  You can die of overhydration for frak's sake.


I don't know anything about the chemical Anything.  Something can be gainned from banning anything but then we'd be able to buy nothing.


This might have made more sense if it made sense.

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Nomad

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Sugar
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2006, 11:30:22 AM »
It makes sense if you consider the pronoun "anything" a noun, as a name for a chemical.  In other words, Tom was just being a smartass.
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BOGWarrior89

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Sugar
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2006, 02:48:05 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
It makes sense if you consider the pronoun "anything" a noun, as a name for a chemical.  In other words, Tom was just being a smartass.


Oh, I got that part; the first sentence made sense.  The second sentence made me say WTF.

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Rick_James

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Sugar
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2006, 08:15:21 PM »
Quote from: "Sara H B Ranson"
Dopamine, Ethyl Alcohol, Sucrose, Caffeine, Cannabis and Diamorphine are all chemicals, all of them potentially harmful, and only one is available in unrestrcited pure form:  Sucrose.

People can get their hands on various foods containing sugar.  In England, you can buy Morphine over the counter at any pharmacy, in a 3% mixture called Kaolin and Morphine, but you don't equate that to the unrestricted sale of Morphine.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100001398.html

We can buy a material called Hemp - I gather if you smoke it for long enough you'll get high.

Big difference between these, and the one kilo bags of the chemical Sucrose, available to everyone.  In the UK, we don't even pay sales tax on Sucrose.



Cannibus is not a Chemical, it's a plant. It's available in an unrestricted pure form - you can grow it in your garden.

Hemp is not the same part of the plant as what you would smoke. Smoking hemp would have no effect, except for the whole having smoke inside your lungs thing.