The god who created smallpox

If I remember correctly, this story doesn't say anything about a character named "Satan." There is a character called "the serpent" I beleive. I think many people give the serpent an alternative name called "Satan."

Wouldnt the serpent have been infulenced by satan, if it was not satan itself?

Quote from: "knight"

If I remember correctly, this story doesn't say anything about a character named "Satan." There is a character called "the serpent" I beleive. I think many people give the serpent an alternative name called "Satan."

Wouldnt the serpent have been infulenced by satan, if it was not satan itself?

That's generally inferred, yes.

That's a free will choice. Unless you define the term "free will" to mean something that I'm not familiar with.

As I said before, it is technically free will. But I would argue that one does not truly have free will when one is completely incapable of differentiating the relative merits of two choices.

This discussion is silly.  Why speculate as to if Adam and Eve actually existed.  The overwhelming evidence of science shows that they clearly did not.  The historical evidence that shows that parts of the events in the bible actually happened also shows that parts of it are clearly made up - like the bit about Jesus being born in Bethlehem because of a census being carried out (the census in question actually occurred 6 years after Jesus' death according to the historical evidence) - this is a good example because it is clear that the reason why the gospels claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is so to appease the prophecy of the old testament - so it demonstrates how the writers of the bible deliberately told lies in order to further convince people that what they were saying is true.  Adam and Eve never existed; it doesn't matter why they might have wanted to eat the apple.

while God was an evil war machine.

An idea heavily alluded to by divine goings-on in the rest of the Pentateuch.

This discussion is silly.  Why speculate as to if Adam and Eve actually existed.  The overwhelming evidence of science shows that they clearly did.

Lawl.

The historical evidence that shows that parts of the events in the bible actually happened also shows that parts of it are clearly made up...

Misquoting Jesus

Free will and Christianity don't really mix too well in my opinion.

Think about it: You have the free will to choose not to believe in God, right?  Well, if you don't you're damned, so you better do it.  It's like saying you have the right to free speech, but if you say anything bad about the government you're going to have to deal with a nice little jail cell.

The idea of "freedom" that you're presenting is different than the classic meaning of the term.  "Freedom" generally takes on two meanings.  One is the meaning you're using, on "whether or not I'll be persecuted if I do something."  The more common usage of the word "freedom" (at least in regards to free will) denotes the ability to choose this or that.

A more interesting question about Christian free will deals with predestination and foreknowledge.  In regards to predestination, some Christians believe that God predestined the saved to be saved (and didn't predestine the not-saved to be saved) before the beginning of the world.  Yet these same Christians also believe that man has the freedom to ensure his own salvation.  Uhhh... sorry Sparky, that doesn't work.

The other issue is the question of whether or not free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being.  If an omniscient being did exist, it would know the entire future exactly and perfectly.  If that were the case, then we human beings do not have any possible way to practice the freedom to make our own future.  Instead, we are destined to fulfill the story known by the omniscient being.

Instead, we are destined to fulfill the story known by the omniscient being.

Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) proved, with his uncertainty principle, that there can be no omniscient being.

Explain how that is the case.  Heisenberg's uncertainty principle has nothing to do with possibilities of the existence of omniscient beings.

The other issue is the question of whether or not free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being.  If an omniscient being did exist, it would know the entire future exactly and perfectly.  If that were the case, then we human beings do not have any possible way to practice the freedom to make our own future.  Instead, we are destined to fulfill the story known by the omniscient being.

That wouldn't be an issue at all. If the omniscient being didn't go around changing things, it would be exactly the same as if it didn't exist.

Don't just believe anything. Believe what seems right.

This idea has no doubt aggravated the most brutal wars in history and fueled the most horrific genocides in human memory.

Quote from: "Knight"

Instead, we are destined to fulfill the story known by the omniscient being.

Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976) proved, with his uncertainty principle, that there can be no omniscient being.

Presumably a supernatural being could measure a particle's position or velocity without affecting it.

That wouldn't be an issue at all. If the omniscient being didn't go around changing things, it would be exactly the same as if it didn't exist.

If an omniscient being exists, it knows the future.  If the future is known, then it is determined.  If the future is determined, it cannot be any other way.  If the future cannot be any other way, humans must do exactly what the omniscient being has determined.  If humans must do this, they do not have the free will to do anything except for this.

If the future is known, then it is determined.

If the future is known (assuming this knowledge is true), it is determined, but not only if. The future could be determined without there being any conscious entities in the universe.

Sure, but if the future is known by an omniscient entity then it is determined.  There's an inherent conflict between determinism and free will.  A fun philosophical topic.

Sure, but if the future is known by an omniscient entity then it is determined.  There's an inherent conflict between determinism and free will.  A fun philosophical topic.

One thing that interests me about the correlation with the String Theory, and there being an omniscient being, is that determinism still fits.  The future for each worldline is already known, but there are still unlimited possibilities for choice and free will.

Quote from: "Knight"

Sure, but if the future is known by an omniscient entity then it is determined.  There's an inherent conflict between determinism and free will.  A fun philosophical topic.

One thing that interests me about the correlation with the String Theory, and there being an omniscient being, is that determinism still fits.  The future for each worldline is already known, but there are still unlimited possibilities for choice and free will.

There are unlimited paths and possibilities without string theory as well... but only one can happen under the existing conditions.