Universal Accelerator - how it works?

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sokarul

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #210 on: January 15, 2016, 04:06:54 PM »
Which part of Special Relativity explains why the acceleration is weaker at the top of the Everest? Can you provide scientific material to back up that stupid claim?
Relativity says the entire Earth cannot experience the same rate of acceleration because rigid bodies violate the rule that information cannot be transmitted instantaneously or at FTL speeds (see: rigid bodies in relativity). For instance, when a rod is pushed, its rear end will experience a higher rate of acceleration (and thus lesser time dilation) than its front. One consequence of this is length contraction. In our case, the top of the Earth moves slightly slower than its bottom.
Objects under more acceleration,thus having more velocity, will experience more time dilation, not less as you claim.
Someone on youtube did a good video on "The speed of push". It's equal to the speed of sound for a material. Once the whole object is being pushed, it will be at a uniform velocity.
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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2016, 03:46:08 AM »
Truth hurts, huh?
More like retardness of the discussion you provoked.

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The shield collapses at certain altitude. If the collapse is uniform around the Earth, the shield forms cylinder. If the shield collapses from full to nothing in a matter of short distance, then we can say we have our step function. If it collapses slowly over long distance to nothing, then we don't.
Right.  You said it would have to be a cylinder, not me.  I stated no such thing.  Stop projecting your argument on me. 
I suggested cylindrical shape based on your description. Why is it so hard for you to clarify or correct me?

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Do you have ANY proof for any case? We can even abandon the cylinder shape for the dome shape. Or any that you like.
If there is an atmosphere on the FE, it has to be held in somehow.  DEF seems like a pretty good explanation to me.
"Somehow", "seems" - none of these words describe anything related to proof.

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Please quote the relevant part where you explicitly state anything regarding components.
2.  Is there an acceleration vector normal to the FE equal to #1?  Yes, go to #3.  No, go to #5.
You are welcome.
Your credibility has just went down to close to zero level.

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You have your magic, which is far more complicated that the magic posed in your description.
FE has magic, RE has magic.  Does that make us even?  Or are you a hypocrite and only don't like FE magic?
What? You are the one calling something from RE a magic. Not me. It is in YOUR DESCRIPTION.



Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2016, 04:23:11 AM »
Ah, which explains why the earth tore itself to pieces billions of years ago  ::)
I just stated the reason why that won't be the case.
No, you didn't.
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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2016, 04:47:19 AM »
Speed only asymptotically nears the speed of light relative to someone who is stationary, because to them the object moving near the speed of light will take literally forever to reach it because time relative to the stationary observer will pass muchhhh slower on the surface of the object. HOWEVER if you were on the surface of the object and were somehow able to continuously accelerate (which is not possible because as you near light speed you actually decellerate) you would eventually eclipse light speed. In this example, the people on earth are travelling at the same acceleration as Earth, because they're on it, so time would move the same relative to them as it does to Earth and they would theoretically witness the Earth surpass the speed of light. Which blows up your asymptotic equation. Because it only theoretically works as percieved by a stationary third party.

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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2016, 04:57:56 AM »
Speed only asymptotically nears the speed of light relative to someone who is stationary, because to them the object moving near the speed of light will take literally forever to reach it because time relative to the stationary observer will pass muchhhh slower on the surface of the object. HOWEVER if you were on the surface of the object and were somehow able to continuously accelerate (which is not possible because as you near light speed you actually decellerate) you would eventually eclipse light speed. In this example, the people on earth are travelling at the same acceleration as Earth, because they're on it, so time would move the same relative to them as it does to Earth and they would theoretically witness the Earth surpass the speed of light. Which blows up your asymptotic equation. Because it only theoretically works as percieved by a stationary third party.
Now I don't accept UA, but you have to give it to them that as far as an observer on earth is concerned (and that is all that matters), the earth can continue to accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for ever. 
Mind you don't ask where is will end up, maybe it describes a massive circle?  Now don't ask me how to constrain an object travelling at (1 - δ)c where δ->0 to keep to a circle.  Just kidding around with all this!

Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2016, 05:10:14 AM »
Now I don't accept UA, but you have to give it to them that as far as an observer on earth is concerned (and that is all that matters), the earth can continue to accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for ever.

Please tell me you were kidding about that part^ because thats absolutely wrong.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2016, 09:06:43 AM »
Now I don't accept UA, but you have to give it to them that as far as an observer on earth is concerned (and that is all that matters), the earth can continue to accelerate at 9.8 m/s2 for ever.

Please tell me you were kidding about that part^ because thats absolutely wrong.

No, Rabinoz is right about this one. 

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TheEngineer

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2016, 10:31:00 AM »
More like retardness of the discussion you provoked.
So I guess you realize how dumb your statement was, then?

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I suggested cylindrical shape based on your description. Why is it so hard for you to clarify or correct me?
My description was nothing of a cylinder.  You said it had to be a cylinder.  And I corrected you.

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"Somehow", "seems" - none of these words describe anything related to proof.
So I assume you also don't accept Dark Energy since it has no proof?

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Your credibility has just went down to close to zero level.
Uh, why is that?  Because I am right and you can't handle it?

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What? You are the one calling something from RE a magic. Not me. It is in YOUR DESCRIPTION.
RE uses magic in order to work.  Lots of things are convenient in the RE.  But for some reason, you accept these things, when you say you can't accept them on the FE.  Seems hypocritical to me. 


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TheEngineer

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #218 on: January 16, 2016, 10:38:44 AM »
Speed only asymptotically nears the speed of light relative to someone who is stationary
Inertial, not stationary.

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because to them the object moving near the speed of light will take literally forever to reach it because time relative to the stationary observer will pass muchhhh slower on the surface of the object.
No, that is not why.  It would take forever because it would approach the speed of light asymptotically.

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HOWEVER if you were on the surface of the object and were somehow able to continuously accelerate (which is not possible because as you near light speed you actually decellerate) you would eventually eclipse light speed.
Nope.  On the FE, you would not notice any change in the acceleration.  To an inertial observer, the acceleration would be slowing, but the object accelerating would be none the wiser.

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In this example, the people on earth are travelling at the same acceleration as Earth, because they're on it, so time would move the same relative to them as it does to Earth and they would theoretically witness the Earth surpass the speed of light.
Nope. See above.

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Which blows up your asymptotic equation.
Nope.  See above.


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Jack

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #219 on: January 16, 2016, 10:39:02 PM »
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In our case, the top of the Earth moves slightly slower than its bottom.
What? That makes no sense.
The reasons for this are that (1) a body rigid in itself is physically impossible, as explained in the article, and that (2) Relativity predicts the Earth will eventually pull itself apart under stress if the two ends of it were to experience the same rate of acceleration (to maintain a constant length between them) while undergoing length contraction with respect to an external inertial observer (or in the frame where it is observed to be moving). Born rigidity addresses this by saying the rear end must experience a higher rate of acceleration than the front. This is so that the Earth’s length, with respect to the inertial observer, contracts as expected (that is, the Earth does not appear "stretched" to the inertial observer by maintaining its initial length forcibly) while the proper length—the length of the Earth measured at rest—between the two ends remains the same in a co-moving frame (that is, the Earth appears to maintain its "rigidity" or structural integrity to an observer co-moving with it, as it would appear stationary).

Objects under more acceleration,thus having more velocity, will experience more time dilation, not less as you claim.
Oops, I made an error there; thanks for pointing it out. Yes, the rear end is supposed to experience higher time dilation due to the higher proper acceleration it experiences. I don't know why I wrote it that way.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:38:07 AM by Jack »

Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #220 on: January 17, 2016, 04:30:32 AM »
Youre forgetting that acceleration is not an asymptotic graph. And time relativity only matters if youre not moving at the same speed as the object in question. Same speed=same time. Thats the whole point of einstein's relativity which has been proven. Youve just made up a law of physics that cant be tested to explain gravity.

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Jadyyn

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #221 on: January 17, 2016, 09:30:59 AM »
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In our case, the top of the Earth moves slightly slower than its bottom.
What? That makes no sense.
The reasons for this are that (1) a body rigid in itself is physically impossible, as explained in the article, and that (2) Relativity predicts the Earth will eventually pull itself apart under stress if the two ends of it were to experience the same rate of acceleration (to maintain a constant length between them) while undergoing length contraction with respect to an external inertial observer (or in the frame where it is observed to be moving). Born rigidity addresses this by saying the rear end must experience a higher rate of acceleration than the front. This is so that the Earth’s length, with respect to the inertial observer, contracts as expected (that is, the Earth does not appear "stretched" to the inertial observer by maintaining its initial length forcibly) while the proper length—the length of the Earth measured at rest—between the two ends remains the same in a co-moving frame (that is, the Earth appears to maintain its "rigidity" or structural integrity to an observer co-moving with it, as it would appear stationary).

Objects under more acceleration,thus having more velocity, will experience more time dilation, not less as you claim.
Oops, I made an error there; thanks for pointing it out. Yes, the rear end is supposed to experience higher time dilation due to the higher proper acceleration it experiences. I don't know why I wrote it that way.
So is the ground of the disk (between the top surface and bottom surface) actually compressing or from an external reference point, only APPEAR to be compressing.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
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Jack

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #222 on: January 18, 2016, 05:57:07 AM »
So is the ground of the disk (between the top surface and bottom surface) actually compressing or from an external reference point, only APPEAR to be compressing.
Yes, the Earth is length-contracted according to an external inertial observer. A person on Earth will not see this, just as she will not see the Earth approaching c; she will, however, see that she experiences slightly less proper acceleration near the top than the bottom according to her accelerometer. We can't possibly determine whether or not the Earth is under-going length contraction independent of observers, since there's no such thing as an absolute frame.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 06:48:43 AM by Jack »

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Jadyyn

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #223 on: January 18, 2016, 11:17:42 AM »
So is the ground of the disk (between the top surface and bottom surface) actually compressing or from an external reference point, only APPEAR to be compressing.
Yes, the Earth is length-contracted according to an external inertial observer. A person on Earth will not see this, just as she will not see the Earth approaching c; she will, however, see that she experiences slightly less proper acceleration near the top than the bottom according to her accelerometer. We can't possibly determine whether or not the Earth is under-going length contraction independent of observers, since there's no such thing as an absolute frame.
So you are saying everything (time, length, velocity) is basically relative to an external observer (apparent). Nothing is actually happening to the things (people, mountains, the ground, etc.) on Earth as they go faster and faster (accelerate)?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #224 on: January 18, 2016, 06:22:24 PM »
So is the ground of the disk (between the top surface and bottom surface) actually compressing or from an external reference point, only APPEAR to be compressing.
Yes, the Earth is length-contracted according to an external inertial observer. A person on Earth will not see this, just as she will not see the Earth approaching c; she will, however, see that she experiences slightly less proper acceleration near the top than the bottom according to her accelerometer. We can't possibly determine whether or not the Earth is under-going length contraction independent of observers, since there's no such thing as an absolute frame.
I have no problem with "she will, however, see that she experiences slightly less proper acceleration near the top than the bottom according to her accelerometer. " (I hardly could, I'm certainly no expert on GR, let alone a physicist!).
Nonetheless there seem to be a couple of points that still need an explanation:
  • There seems to have been no attempt at any correlation with the predicted lower acceleration nearer the top and the observer variation with altitude.  At the moment it seems to a could be explanation.

  • Also this seems to provide no explanation of the increasing "g" measured as the latitude increases, noted since Newton's and Huygen's time from careful measurements on pendulums and timing weights.

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Jack

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #225 on: January 19, 2016, 09:36:13 AM »
Nothing is actually happening to the things (people, mountains, the ground, etc.) on Earth as they go faster and faster (accelerate)?
As I said, they go faster and faster relative to an external inertial observer. Any relativistic phenomenon that arises from the ever-increasing velocity of the Earth (as it approaches c) can only be seen and measured by said observer.

Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #226 on: January 19, 2016, 09:58:05 AM »
So is the ground of the disk (between the top surface and bottom surface) actually compressing or from an external reference point, only APPEAR to be compressing.
Yes, the Earth is length-contracted according to an external inertial observer. A person on Earth will not see this, just as she will not see the Earth approaching c; she will, however, see that she experiences slightly less proper acceleration near the top than the bottom according to her accelerometer.
Although I think your explanation is basically bollocks, I'm still genuinely impressed you made a good stab at it.


The problem is, even if we accept your sophisticated hand-waving about Born Rigidity (the weakest of the Bourne films, if you ask me), it only explains why gravity varies by altitude, and not why it varies from place to place even at sea level.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 11:44:38 AM by JimmyTheCrab »
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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #227 on: January 19, 2016, 06:10:03 PM »
it only explains why gravity varies by altitude, and not why it varies from place to place even at sea level.

I tried this earlier in this thread, the only responses were inane ones like: "Variations in test equipment".

From the little I have read the Einstein's "Equivalence Theory" can only be applied over a region of space and time where "g" is constant.

This is clearly not true for the whole surface area of the earth.
We find that at sea level "g" varies from about 9.780 m/s2 at the Equator to to about 9.832 m/s2 at the poles - only about 0.5%, but quite measurable.
Also an increase in altitude from sea level to 9,000 metres (30,000 ft) causes a weight decrease of about 0.29%, neglecting any change in bouancy of the less dense atmosphere. (Admittedly from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth#Latitude, but the I don't believe the figures are much disputed).

So if the UA theory is going to rely on the "Equivalence Theory" for justification, some rational explanation for these variations must be provided.  This explanation should show why changes in "g" are detected as a result of massive ore bodies - used in mineral exploration.

And, please don't come up with the "gravitational effects of the sun moon and other celestial bodies" for obvious reasons!

It's probably just me!  I don't think little things like facts get in the way of Zetetic "science".

Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2016, 03:15:10 AM »

So if the UA theory is going to rely on the "Equivalence Theory" for justification, some rational explanation for these variations must be provided.  This explanation should show why changes in "g" are detected as a result of massive ore bodies - used in mineral exploration.
It doesn't really matter what the explanation is though.  The very fact the g varies at all means that, if the earth is being propelled at relativistic speeds, that it would tear itself apart in nanoseconds.

For UA to work, then the measured acceleration must be exactly the same the planet over.  It isn't, and that is why UA is broken out of the box.
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Jadyyn

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2016, 09:17:56 AM »
Using UA/whatever, please explain:

1) Neptune being discovered by the perturbation of Uranus' orbit.
2) Pluto being discovered by the perturbation of Uranus' and Neptune's orbit.

Does UA apply? How?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2016, 05:45:46 PM »
1) Neptune being discovered by the perturbation of Uranus' orbit.
2) Pluto being discovered by the perturbation of Uranus' and Neptune's orbit.
Not really on topic, but I was intrigued a few days ago to read a lot of the detail on the discovery of Neptune, very briefly summarised as:
Quote from: Cool Cosmos
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/ask/146--When-was-Neptune-discovered-
Neptune was the first planet to be discovered by using mathematics. After the discovery of Uranus in 1781, astronomers noticed that the planet was being pulled slightly out of its normal orbit. John Couch Adams of Britain and Urbain Jean Joseph Leverrier of France, used mathematics to predict that the gravity from another planet beyond Uranus was affecting the orbit of Uranus. They figured out not only where the planet was, but also how much mass it had. A young astronomer, Johann Gottfried Galle, decided to search for the predicted planet and observed Neptune for the first time in 1846.
Galle might have been the astromoner that first "found" it, but the prediction was certainly a joint effort!
Then to find that astronomers from Galileo on had sometimes seen and even noted that it moved, yet never twigged that it was a new planet.
I don't think UA would have helped at all!

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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2016, 12:47:05 AM »
I have made a number of posts on this thread claiming that the Equivalence Principle cannot be used to justify the UA.  This is based on the well accepted variation of "g"[nb]"g" is used as the effective acceleration due to gravity. [/nb] over the surface of the earth.
One such post was: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65265.msg1744289#msg1744289] [url]http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65265.msg1744289#msg1744289[/url].

I would claim, however, that EP or not,  Universal Acceleration is simply not a valid mechanism for the observed effects of variations in  effective "g" observed on the earth's surface,  simply because it is claimed to be "Universal".

In the case of the earth we can readily measure these variations in the "g".  These are due to predominately to latitude and altitude, but there are more subtle variations due to the presence of ore bodies as used in gravimetric surveys for minerals.

Since the measured "g" clearly varies over the earth's surface , the concept of Universal Acceleration cannot be be used to replace the "g" [/b] and shows quite clearly that UA is simply an invalid substitute for the observed "g".

Undoubtedly someone will say Einstein "disproved gravity" and replaced it with the curvature of space-time. While this is undoubtedly correct it does nothing to justify Universal Acceleration being the mechanism behind the observed non-uniform "g".


Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2016, 10:23:59 AM »
UA in the FE world is, as I understand it, acting upon the Earth itself but not upon things on the Earth.  This is why you don't stay at whatever height you jump to but the Earth catches up to you.

Two things would seem to negate this.

1. When you jump, you add additional speed to your body from the jump so you are initially going faster than the Earth.  In that case, the Earth should not catch up as quickly as it does.  It should be much more slowly because your speed does not immediately cease when you jump.

2.  Since there is no Gravity on a FE world, then the only weights are when the Earth pushes up against an object.  So if removed from the Earth nothing would be lighter or heavier than anything else.  A helium balloon floats skyward, but since UA does not act upon anything on the Earth and there is no Gravity, it can not be said to be lighter than anything so should not act as it does.

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Rama Set

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2016, 10:52:23 AM »
UA in the FE world is, as I understand it, acting upon the Earth itself but not upon things on the Earth.  This is why you don't stay at whatever height you jump to but the Earth catches up to you.

Two things would seem to negate this.

1. When you jump, you add additional speed to your body from the jump so you are initially going faster than the Earth.  In that case, the Earth should not catch up as quickly as it does.  It should be much more slowly because your speed does not immediately cease when you jump.

The same is true in the gravity case.  Your velocity relative to the Earth changes at a rate of 9.8 m/s2.  This is what happens in the UA case as well.

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2.  Since there is no Gravity on a FE world, then the only weights are when the Earth pushes up against an object.  So if removed from the Earth nothing would be lighter or heavier than anything else.  A helium balloon floats skyward, but since UA does not act upon anything on the Earth and there is no Gravity, it can not be said to be lighter than anything so should not act as it does.

You are mistaking mass with weight.  Helium is not lighter than air because of gravity but because of effects related to their mass and density.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2016, 01:54:53 PM »

I'm confused - if the UA is accelerating our FE at 9.8 mt/sec/sec, then it would take T seconds to hit light speed

 9.8 Mmt/sec/sec x T sec = 299792458 M/sec (speed of light)

T = 299792458/9.8/60/60/24/365 = .97 years to reach the speed of light

What is the FE definition of a year?

We should be way into hyperspace by now .... or is the dome pushing back and slowing us down?

I wonder if there is dark matter out there pushing back on us?

Can anyone help? Thanks

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TheEngineer

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2016, 02:31:20 PM »
You need to take Relativity into account.  You are talking relativistic velocities, so you can't use Newtonian mechanics.

It would take an infinite amount of time for the FE, accelerating at a constant rate, to reach the speed of light.  From an inertial observer's point of view, the FE's acceleration would be decreasing, but those on the FE would only experience a constant acceleration.


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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2016, 03:00:58 PM »
I wonder how old is the FE? Presumably we have been accelerating all this time - so how fast are we actually going? And I don't understand the infinite time argument? We must be going some velocity less than C? But what is the force that is reducing our acceleration?

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rabinoz

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2016, 03:14:49 PM »
I'm confused - if the UA is accelerating our FE at 9.8 mt/sec/sec, then it would take T seconds to hit light speed
 9.8 Mmt/sec/sec x T sec = 299792458 M/sec (speed of light)
T = 299792458/9.8/60/60/24/365 = .97 years to reach the speed of light
What is the FE definition of a year?
We should be way into hyperspace by now .... or is the dome pushing back and slowing us down?
I wonder if there is dark matter out there pushing back on us?
Can anyone help? Thanks
No, we aren't in hyperspace, nor need "the dome pushing back", and have no need of dark matter, maybe a bit of "dark energy".

Basically relativity won't let it. I will let someone far more competent than I go into this more fully, but to a non-accelerating observer your mass will appear to increase and your acceleration slow down so that the speed of light is approached asymptotically.

So, while in the accelerating "flat earth" the inhabitants still experience the same acceleration, the velocity never reaches speed of light (relative to any observer).

Mind you I think UA is "flat wrong", but that's another story.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2016, 03:20:48 PM »
I wonder how old is the FE?
4.5 billion years, give or take.

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Presumably we have been accelerating all this time - so how fast are we actually going?
Less than c.

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And I don't understand the infinite time argument?
According to the equations of Special Relativity, it would take an infinite amount of time to accelerate to the speed of light.

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But what is the force that is reducing our acceleration?
There is no force.  As a consequence of the above mentioned equations, the FE would approach the speed of light asymptotically, requiring an infinite amount of time to reach it.  To those on the FE, they would not notice anything different.  But to an inertial frame of reference, it would appear that the FE's rate of accelerating was decreasing.


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Son of Orospu

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Re: Universal Accelerator - how it works?
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2016, 03:27:30 PM »
I'm confused - if the UA is accelerating our FE at 9.8 mt/sec/sec, then it would take T seconds to hit light speed
 9.8 Mmt/sec/sec x T sec = 299792458 M/sec (speed of light)
T = 299792458/9.8/60/60/24/365 = .97 years to reach the speed of light
What is the FE definition of a year?
We should be way into hyperspace by now .... or is the dome pushing back and slowing us down?
I wonder if there is dark matter out there pushing back on us?
Can anyone help? Thanks
No, we aren't in hyperspace, nor need "the dome pushing back", and have no need of dark matter, maybe a bit of "dark energy".

Basically relativity won't let it. I will let someone far more competent than I go into this more fully, but to a non-accelerating observer your mass will appear to increase and your acceleration slow down so that the speed of light is approached asymptotically.

So, while in the accelerating "flat earth" the inhabitants still experience the same acceleration, the velocity never reaches speed of light (relative to any observer).

Mind you I think UA is "flat wrong", but that's another story.

rabinoz finally has said something halfway intelligent.  I think someone is starting to do some research.  :D