# Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success

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#### Heiwa

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##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #180 on: December 27, 2015, 02:49:24 AM »
Have u got a problem with math? Why every time u're asked to provide an equation or some calculations to support your claims u always ignore the request?
No, if you study my web page about the Falcon 9 first stage return (topic) and how things drop due to gravity - variable speeds, times used and distances travelled - the math is simple and the formulas are well known and need no explanations.

The Falcon 9 first stage return was just an Elon Musk show. According my calculations - you find them on my web page - the rocket (mass unknown or nominal) must have returned at >3 times the speed of sound at 11 560 m altitude before touch down at 0 m/s speed 21 seconds later. Hard rocket braking at >5g!  Sorry - not possible.

The whole thing, Elon, rocket, hypersonic grid fins, etc, are 100% fake. Imagine Elon is paid \$2.6B by NASA to do these stunts. One of the biggest swindles 2015!

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #181 on: December 27, 2015, 02:52:28 AM »
Why can't grid fins work?

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#### luckyfred

• 524
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #182 on: December 27, 2015, 02:56:21 AM »
Why a 5g deceleration is not possible?

#### Heiwa

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• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #183 on: December 27, 2015, 03:18:18 AM »
Why can't grid fins work?
As I explain on my web site: seagoing ships have rudders that work in water. A grid fin needs a medium to work in, which doesn't exist in space.

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #184 on: December 27, 2015, 03:20:09 AM »
They are not used on space they are ised in the atmosphere. Try again

#### Heiwa

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• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #185 on: December 27, 2015, 03:26:33 AM »
Why a 5g deceleration is not possible?

The SpaceX Merlin rocket engine + steering/computer system cannot do the suggested manoeuvre during the 21 seconds and 11 500 m distance available. You cannot pocket park a 50 m space ship coming in for landing at 1100 m/s in such a short time/distance. It is all fantasy.

Actually Elon invents everything himself. There is noone to tell him he is all wrong all the time. Media loves it. Imagine being paid \$2.6B to fool the Americans. Hilarious. Great fun. I love it. People getting upset wetting/dirtying their pants when I tell them that they are fooled. Cognitive dissonance as its worst.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #186 on: December 27, 2015, 03:31:40 AM »
They are not used on space they are ised in the atmosphere. Try again

You really have to study the SpaceX web page. The hypersonic grid fins are deployed at 200 000 m altitude to assist during the 300 seconds free fall + some slow down burns return from space. There is no air at 200 000 m altitude. Or 20 000 m altitude. The grid fins are 100% useless up there. And the grid fins are 95% holes anyway. Please, give me a break. A fin that is 95% holes!
Just a brainless twirp can come up with such a stupid invention.

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #187 on: December 27, 2015, 03:33:19 AM »
The fins and not deployed until at a much lower altitude. All controls until then are undertake using rcs controle systems. I think you need to go back and check again when the fins are deployed.

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #188 on: December 27, 2015, 03:57:21 AM »
Nice little info graphic showing the launch and recovery of the 1st stade.
http://i.imgur.com/1sEH9j9.png

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#### luckyfred

• 524
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #189 on: December 27, 2015, 04:01:34 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #190 on: December 27, 2015, 04:03:00 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

He is saying 200,000m

Edit my mistake I see he also said 20 000m
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 04:12:59 AM by Pythagoras »

#### Conker

• 1557
• Official FES jerk / kneebiter
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #191 on: December 27, 2015, 04:10:50 AM »
There is no air at 200 000 m altitude. Or 20 000 m altitude.
The US standard atmosphere disagrees. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

Grid fins were also developed by Sergey Belotserkovskiy, were used in Soviet supersonic and subsonic missiles, and were considered in Yuri Gagarin's thesis, the MOAB bomb, and they are used in the Soyuz escape system. So I guess its all a communist grid conspiracy.
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#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #192 on: December 27, 2015, 04:36:09 AM »
There is no air at 200 000 m altitude. Or 20 000 m altitude.
The US standard atmosphere disagrees. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

Grid fins were also developed by Sergey Belotserkovskiy, were used in Soviet supersonic and subsonic missiles, and were considered in Yuri Gagarin's thesis, the MOAB bomb, and they are used in the Soyuz escape system. So I guess its all a communist grid conspiracy.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">

I think you are right. Imagine Elon just copying/pasting old commie rubbish.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #193 on: December 27, 2015, 04:37:45 AM »
Nice little info graphic showing the launch and recovery of the 1st stade.
http://i.imgur.com/1sEH9j9.png

Hm, satellites deployed at 80 000 m altitude!?!? What a lousy graphic.

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #194 on: December 27, 2015, 04:40:23 AM »
Not sure where it says what altitude the sat is released on the infographic

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #195 on: December 27, 2015, 04:43:26 AM »

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #196 on: December 27, 2015, 04:47:26 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

Yes, yes, yes. Plenty of air at 20 000 m altitude, blah, blah. But you wouldn't survive up there without a breathing apparatus.

Now, imagine you drop down from there at 20 000 m altitude at 1 000 m/s supersonic speed. How long will it take you to touch ground? Yes - only 20 seconds.

Aha, a shock wave is created in front of the holes of the grid fin.

You sure?

Really sure?

You remind me of the fisherman using a fish net as a parachute, when he did his first (and last) parachute jump. He apparently thought that the net would catch the air (like fishes) and land him safely. Without a safety net.

Someone should tell Elon that he is just a ... 0. Like the hole in his hypersonic grid fin.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 04:53:10 AM by Heiwa »

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #197 on: December 27, 2015, 04:49:39 AM »
All you are saying is you don't think it world their for it dosent. Where is your evidence? Calculations?

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #198 on: December 27, 2015, 04:52:19 AM »
I wanted to keep it simple for you. Hear is a slightly more detailed info graphic. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=spacex+landing+diagram&client=ms-android-orange-gb&source=android-browser&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim38yj-fvJAhUGORoKHQtKCI4Q_AUIBygB#imgrc=KbiB_KpPu7a4vM%3A

No, the launch pad is only 1000 m from the Landing Zone so you have to somersault back something like;

to reach the 200 000 m altitude to drop down from.

Please, do not spam the thread with your nonsense sketches.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #199 on: December 27, 2015, 04:54:52 AM »
All you are saying is you don't think it world their for it dosent. Where is your evidence? Calculations?

Sorry, I do not understand what you try to communicate. Are you drunk again or have you just beaten your husband ... again?

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #200 on: December 27, 2015, 04:56:10 AM »
Well no actually it looks like this if you want to be more
adsact https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=falcon.9+landing+profile&client=ms-android-orange-gb&source=android-browser&biw=360&bih=615&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB5YH9ivzJAhWEXRoKHZm3CusQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=2R6Hj2rThB6xXM%3A

And the landing site is about 6km away not 1km.

Where are your calculations to show it isn't possible?

#### JimmyTheCrab

• 9303
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #201 on: December 27, 2015, 05:00:25 AM »
You really need to stop debating with twats like Heiwa and Papa Legba - just put them on ignore.
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#### luckyfred

• 524
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #202 on: December 27, 2015, 05:08:36 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

Yes, yes, yes. Plenty of air at 20 000 m altitude, blah, blah. But you wouldn't survive up there without a breathing apparatus.

Now, imagine you drop down from there at 20 000 m altitude at 1 000 m/s supersonic speed. How long will it take you to touch ground? Yes - only 20 seconds.

Aha, a shock wave is created in front of the holes of the grid fin.

You sure?

Really sure?

You remind me of the fisherman using a fish net as a parachute, when he did his first (and last) parachute jump. He apparently thought that the net would catch the air (like fishes) and land him safely. Without a safety net.

Someone should tell Elon that he is just a ... 0. Like the hole in his hypersonic grid fin.

yes, absolutely sure.... u don't know anything of supersonic fluid dynamics, do u?
once reached sonic speed a shockwave is created in front of every body, even if they have an opening.
in order to desing  supersonic air intakes u have to take into account the shockwave cause they mess up all the flow.
so yes, i'm sure that a shockwave will create in front of a surface with holes, and i'm sure it will increase drag.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #203 on: December 27, 2015, 05:29:25 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

Yes, yes, yes. Plenty of air at 20 000 m altitude, blah, blah. But you wouldn't survive up there without a breathing apparatus.

Now, imagine you drop down from there at 20 000 m altitude at 1 000 m/s supersonic speed. How long will it take you to touch ground? Yes - only 20 seconds.

Aha, a shock wave is created in front of the holes of the grid fin.

You sure?

Really sure?

You remind me of the fisherman using a fish net as a parachute, when he did his first (and last) parachute jump. He apparently thought that the net would catch the air (like fishes) and land him safely. Without a safety net.

Someone should tell Elon that he is just a ... 0. Like the hole in his hypersonic grid fin.

yes, absolutely sure.... u don't know anything of supersonic fluid dynamics, do u?
once reached sonic speed a shockwave is created in front of every body, even if they have an opening.
in order to desing  supersonic air intakes u have to take into account the shockwave cause they mess up all the flow.
so yes, i'm sure that a shockwave will create in front of a surface with holes, and i'm sure it will increase drag.

Supersonic fluid dynamics. In what medium? Air? At what pressure and density? Pls clarify.

45 years ago I was involved with seagoing ship propellers operating in water design ... or the propellers created low pressure/vacuum in the water while working that caused cavitation. Very nasty stuff. How to design to prevent it? Vacuum holes in the water that closed themselves at supersonic speed ... in water!!!

The SpaceX Falcon9 grid fin looks like a grid placed outside homes, where you could wipe off the dog shit below your shoes. What do you think?

Anyway, when the Falcon9 came dropping down over Florida no sonic booms were heard just prior touch down. How do you explain that?

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #204 on: December 27, 2015, 05:33:57 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

Yes, yes, yes. Plenty of air at 20 000 m altitude, blah, blah. But you wouldn't survive up there without a breathing apparatus.

Now, imagine you drop down from there at 20 000 m altitude at 1 000 m/s supersonic speed. How long will it take you to touch ground? Yes - only 20 seconds.

Aha, a shock wave is created in front of the holes of the grid fin.

You sure?

Really sure?

You remind me of the fisherman using a fish net as a parachute, when he did his first (and last) parachute jump. He apparently thought that the net would catch the air (like fishes) and land him safely. Without a safety net.

Someone should tell Elon that he is just a ... 0. Like the hole in his hypersonic grid fin.

yes, absolutely sure.... u don't know anything of supersonic fluid dynamics, do u?
once reached sonic speed a shockwave is created in front of every body, even if they have an opening.
in order to desing  supersonic air intakes u have to take into account the shockwave cause they mess up all the flow.
so yes, i'm sure that a shockwave will create in front of a surface with holes, and i'm sure it will increase drag.

Supersonic fluid dynamics. In what medium? Air? At what pressure and density? Pls clarify.

45 years ago I was involved with seagoing ship propellers operating in water design ... or the propellers created low pressure/vacuum in the water while working that caused cavitation. Very nasty stuff. How to design to prevent it? Vacuum holes in the water that closed themselves at supersonic speed ... in water!!!

The SpaceX Falcon9 grid fin looks like a grid placed outside homes, where you could wipe off the dog shit below your shoes. What do you think?

Anyway, when the Falcon9 came dropping down over Florida no sonic booms were heard just prior touch down. How do you explain that?
there  was a sonic boom and it can be heard in all the fottage. I think you need to improve your research a bit.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #205 on: December 27, 2015, 05:39:31 AM »
again, at 20000 m plenty of air to operate a jet engines and to make an airplane fly so plenty of air for the fins to operate.
they are full of hole cause they operate at supersonic speed, therefore in front of the holes a shockwave is created, and u can produce a lot of drag even with a surface full of holes.

Yes, yes, yes. Plenty of air at 20 000 m altitude, blah, blah. But you wouldn't survive up there without a breathing apparatus.

Now, imagine you drop down from there at 20 000 m altitude at 1 000 m/s supersonic speed. How long will it take you to touch ground? Yes - only 20 seconds.

Aha, a shock wave is created in front of the holes of the grid fin.

You sure?

Really sure?

You remind me of the fisherman using a fish net as a parachute, when he did his first (and last) parachute jump. He apparently thought that the net would catch the air (like fishes) and land him safely. Without a safety net.

Someone should tell Elon that he is just a ... 0. Like the hole in his hypersonic grid fin.

yes, absolutely sure.... u don't know anything of supersonic fluid dynamics, do u?
once reached sonic speed a shockwave is created in front of every body, even if they have an opening.
in order to desing  supersonic air intakes u have to take into account the shockwave cause they mess up all the flow.
so yes, i'm sure that a shockwave will create in front of a surface with holes, and i'm sure it will increase drag.

Supersonic fluid dynamics. In what medium? Air? At what pressure and density? Pls clarify.

45 years ago I was involved with seagoing ship propellers operating in water design ... or the propellers created low pressure/vacuum in the water while working that caused cavitation. Very nasty stuff. How to design to prevent it? Vacuum holes in the water that closed themselves at supersonic speed ... in water!!!

The SpaceX Falcon9 grid fin looks like a grid placed outside homes, where you could wipe off the dog shit below your shoes. What do you think?

Anyway, when the Falcon9 came dropping down over Florida no sonic booms were heard just prior touch down. How do you explain that?
there  was a sonic boom and it can be heard in all the fottage. I think you need to improve your research a bit.

There was? When? How many seconds before touch down? I never noticed it on all the videos you linked too. Time to sound shop the footage?

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #206 on: December 27, 2015, 05:45:27 AM »
The sonic boom Is heard at different times depending on where the fottage is shot. For a self proclaimed expert you don't know much do you. I heard the sonic boom the night I watched it all. So no it hasn't been post edited as you are trying to imply. You just are not very observant.

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#### frenat

• 3645
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #207 on: December 27, 2015, 05:46:07 AM »
I wanted to keep it simple for you. Hear is a slightly more detailed info graphic. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=spacex+landing+diagram&client=ms-android-orange-gb&source=android-browser&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim38yj-fvJAhUGORoKHQtKCI4Q_AUIBygB#imgrc=KbiB_KpPu7a4vM%3A

No, the launch pad is only 1000 m from the Landing Zone so you have to somersault back something like;

to reach the 200 000 m altitude to drop down from.

Please, do not spam the thread with your nonsense sketches.
You owe me a new irony meter.  You've broken mine with your above statement and sketch.  Plus, you couldn't even get the date right.

I'm more and more convinced that "Heiwa" is just a bot designed to get traffic to Ander's website.  That explains why he doesn't answer questions and can't do math.  And of course why "he" is always pushing other posters to the website.

#### Heiwa

• 9107
• I have been around a long time.
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #208 on: December 27, 2015, 07:27:06 AM »
The sonic boom Is heard at different times depending on where the fottage is shot. For a self proclaimed expert you don't know much do you. I heard the sonic boom the night I watched it all. So no it hasn't been post edited as you are trying to imply. You just are not very observant.

Hm, so what causes the sonic boom when the rocket approaches the atmosphere getting thicker all the time? The flat bottom of the rocket with 9 engines + combustion chambers sticking out? Or the four hypersonic grid fins with holes deployed at the top as flaps? And at what speed, altitude, air density does it take place?
IMO the flimsy grid fin should be ripped off at Mach 3 speed and air density at 10 000 m altitude.

Supersonic planes/rockets have sharp or rounded noses which create a sonic boom at 330 m/s speed and increasing at low altitude and high density air.

If the sonic boom occurs at 330 m/s speed of the Falcon 9 landing, it should have occurred about 6-7 seconds prior touch down during a full landing burn, exhaust of which is ejected at much higher velocity at the bottom of the rocket.
What does the expert have to say?

« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 07:29:52 AM by Heiwa »

#### Pythagoras

• 3274
##### Re: Tune in for SpaceX's return to flight and first landing success
« Reply #209 on: December 27, 2015, 09:29:37 AM »
Well they are all questions you will need to find answers to be for you can call it fake. Again, you thinking it's not possible does not make it not possible. Do some research